paradigm shift needed

[Dogmatagram]

Look, face it, under the current regime we are destined, DESTINED, for a group of death no-qualify or something like a 0-5 Spain octofinals debacle.

Shouldn't we say, "F it," we finally have some skill -- unlike last cycle (Dempsey, Convey, that's it) -- and we're going to just throw it out there in a legit offensive formation, a la Olympics, and hopefully kick some arse (a la Olympics)?

Thus, shouldn't we try to play, at every national team opportunity, the following players:

Edu
Bradley
Kleijstan
Adu
Rogers
Holden
Orozco
Feilheiber
Szetala
Torres
Altidore
Cooper
Davies

And why ever play:

Johnson
Ching
Wolff
Lewis
Hedjuk

Doesn't history show that dominating CONCACAF is pointless? And that putting maximum skill on the WC pitch is dispositive?

Isn't this the cycle, finally, where we can say...let's go for it?

Bradley disagrees. Well F Bradley. I have no inclination to wait to lose at some piont in 2010. I'd rather go for it and lose with Adu et al. rather than endure last cycle's abomination.

[Grumpy in LA]

Shouldn't we say, "F it," we finally have some skill -- unlike last cycle (Dempsey, Convey, that's it) ...Thus, shouldn't we try to play, at every national team opportunity, the following players:

Edu
Bradley
Kleijstan
Adu
Rogers
Holden
Orozco
Feilheiber
Szetala
Torres
Altidore
Cooper
Davies


I'm a Galaxy fan, so I've had a chance to watch this guy Donovan. He hasn't played for the Nats, so he's not on a lot of people's radars. But he might be a dark horse. I mean, he's no Convey, but he's got some pretty decent skill on the ball.


Doesn't history show that... putting maximum skill on the WC pitch is dispositive?
Exactly. It's all about skill, every time, everywhere. Like when our superior skill overcame Portugal's speed and athleticism in 2002. Dis-freakin-positive.


Isn't this the cycle, finally, where we can say...let's go for it? Bradley disagrees. Well F Bradley. I have no inclination to wait to lose at some piont in 2010. I'd rather go for it and lose with Adu et al. rather than endure last cycle's abomination.

Damn straight. If only Bradley would play some of those guys you list at every opportunity or maybe even call all but a handful of them into camp this time around. But he doesn't have the g-darn grape nuts.

[Dogmatagram]

You miss the point (but your sarcasm is really cool). Donovan will, and should, get called into any camp -- as should Pearce, Gooch, Boca, Dolo, Beas, and Dempsey. The point is that the others I list should not only be called in but PLAY. What is the point, oh clever one, in playing Ching over Altidore?

[Dan Roudebush]

How about qualifying?

[Grumpy in LA]

You miss the point (but your sarcasm is really cool). Donovan will, and should, get called into any camp -- as should Pearce, Gooch, Boca, Dolo, Beas, and Dempsey.
Fine. I got confused. Of the guys you mention above, only Dempsey made an appearance in your original post. And in that original post you said that the only guys on the team with skill in 2006 were Convey and Dempsey. Which struck me as weird because a) there were other guys (some of whom are still playing) and b) Convey isn't especially skilled. We can see that his usefulness is diminished when his speed is impaired by injury or lack of fitness.


The point is that the others I list should not only be called in but PLAY. What is the point, oh clever one, in playing Ching over Altidore?
At this point, I'm not sure if there is one or if it will happen, especially if we beat Cuba.

In Guatemala City and Havana, though, Ching was far more likely to handle the pressure. And, IIRC, Altidore was still a bit injured--and he was definitely trying to get settled in with his club.

But the other problem with your list (which I no longer have in front of me because I forgot to paste it in) is that I don't see how or why you could get ALL of them on the field at a given time. Too many midfielders, for one thing. And the point in bringing new guys in is that you have to see how they play with veterans, particularly with veterans who are likely to play an important role in 2010.

And I'm still not convinced that the "all-skill" US team is the way to go. Our fast players are as fast as anybody's, but most of our skilled players are a standard deviation below Spain's, Argentina's, Brazil's etc. We need some highly skilled guys on the field--Adu, for example--and get them well-integrated into the team by early 2010. But we'll need some other guys with other abilities in the mix also.

[mcadaal]

I like your enthusiasm/passion and can also empathize with your frustration. To be honest, though.. BB is going towards that direction. He is starting to call up younger players and he is still in the process of finding our best roster for the WC 2010. I trust Bob and I believe he is the best coach we can get.

[Martin Fischer]

You miss the point (but your sarcasm is really cool). Donovan will, and should, get called into any camp -- as should Pearce, Gooch, Boca, Dolo, Beas, and Dempsey. The point is that the others I list should not only be called in but PLAY. What is the point, oh clever one, in playing Ching over Altidore?

Well one obvious point is that Altidore will learn more playing against Deportivo de la Coruna than Cuba.

Perphaps BB is a little conservative in that he wants to win qualifiers before he will use them for experimentation. Fine, fair point.

Finally, as far as I know there is only one guy on that list who hasn't been in multiple camps -- Kenny Cooper. The only other guys who may not be capped are Stuart Holden and Robbie Rogers. Holden doesn't even start for his club team regularly. And this is a MLS side, not the EPL. Rogers, IMHO, didn't impress in the Olympics, so thinking he is going to lead us to glory at the full national team level is a bit of a stretch.

The rest have been selected by Braldey multiple times. So, other than your love of the "F" word, it's hard to see where you are disagreeing with Braldey other than you would have some type of age limit on the team (it isn't about skill as in what world is Michael Orozco skilled with the ball and Eddie Lewis isn't).

[braun]

Let's look at the recent activity of some of the potentially better USMNT players:

Adu: starts for Monaco and plays 60+ minutes in 1-0 loss. Hasn't proven himself so far.

Feilhaber: knee-swelling. Will be out for weeks.

Altidore: supplanted by Rossi and whoever GR is paired with. Best scenario in near-future is for frequent sub or transfer loan to another club.

That is not encouraging. But BB has hands tied when his best players are either injured or not playing with their clubs. The list has to be enlarged to compensate for this.

We need players that can get by their defenders either with speed or guile and then it would be good if the same guys could finish. Isn't that what the top nations have?

[Mr Martin]

And why ever play:

Johnson
Ching
Wolff
Lewis
Hedjuk



Others have already made good points about your list of younger players and how BB has actually made a serious push to integrate most of them. So, instead I'll focus on your list of older players who you want to drop ASAP.

Johnson: 24 year old with a good track record of scoring for MLS sides, which is exactly the point Cooper fans are currently making. BB gave him a chance to show something because you simply don't toss out speedy goal-scorers at age 24. But look at the progression for EJ in 2008. Early in 2008 he started regularly but didn't produce much. Then BB pulled him from the starting XI and made him a sub, where he also didn't produce. This fall EJ has been dropped, based on performance. So, what was your point again???

Ching: A proven MLS scorer who has also scored for the Nat's this year. A serviceable veteran who knows how to handle physical qualification matches. Moreover, he is just a temporary place holder for Altidore, who struggled with a nagging injury and also needed to focus on his big new club transfer through most of 2008. Altidore's absence was 100% legitimate this year, so Ching's inclusion was totally understandable.

Wolff: This is a straw man. Wolff saw an emergency start in the horrid England match when Altidore wasn't available and Donovan was a last minute scratch due to injury. Wolff was a long-time vet given one last chance to show if he had anything left. He played poorly and basically has dissappeared from the US roster. So, what was your point???

Lewis: Another serviceable vet who helped fill in when Beasley and Convey were both out or just returning to fitness. Frankly, he had a couple of excellent games and scored a goal. He had one clunker game. It's good to know how much a loyal vet still has to offer in a pinch. He's clearly being phased out this fall, so what was your point???

Hejduk: The ideal veteran bench player. Can play left or right back, which is very useful when guys like Spector, Simek, and Bornstein were unavailable due to injury and Cherundolo was unavailable due to yellow card accumulation. How anyone can criticize Hejduk's inclusion given his tremendous fitness, experience, and balls-to-the-wall hustle is beyond me.

We are 20 months from the World Cup. The youth transition is well underway. It seems to be a slow, systematic process, which is driving some impatient fans up a wall.

For coaching comparison purposes, let's look at the Uber-God-Coach Hiddink as an example of how to transition in younger players. Hiddink's Russia side was the revelation of the 2008 Euro Championships. Everyone remarked at how "young" that team was. Well, the squad averaged 26 years old, one of the "youngest" at the Euros. More than half his roster and most of his starting XI was between age 24 and 27. Only his keeper was truly young at age 21. Even the great Hiddink's "young" team was built around players with 4-7 years of professional play in Euro club ball.

NOBODY does what you are suggesting and throw out a squad of U20 and U23 players as the core of a Senior National Team. Of your list of young players, none is older than 23 years and none has anything like the experience level of even Hiddink's mythically "young" Russian team. It simply isn't done anywhere by anyone. Nobody. Nada. Zippo.

[kokoplus10]

...I trust Bob and I believe he is the best coach we can get.

I fear for your life. Don't you know you can't say those kinds of things here?

[Adam Zebrowski]

you use the ebst guys currently to qualify and then blood in the enxt group of guys..

clearly, adu and altidore are targetted for big things...

i've seen torres enough to know he's got a real good chance to be very good...

but when you go to have surgery, do you want some kid just in residency doing it, or do you want that kid to get slowly tutored...

personally, let's see what the kids do versus t&t, which is bascially what the poster is calling for, all the time...

the away 1-0 win versus barbados didn't portent well...

use those kids in havana or guatemala city, and usa might be sitting on 1 point right now...

bring kids to a street fight and men whup them more often that not

[gmonn]

I fear for your life. Don't you know you can't say those kinds of things here?

Nah, it's pathetic, not inflammatory. I'm talking about "the best we can get." That's just sad.

[Missionary]

Well one obvious point is that Altidore will learn more playing against Deportivo de la Coruna than Cuba.

Perphaps BB is a little conservative in that he wants to win qualifiers before he will use them for experimentation. Fine, fair point.

Finally, as far as I know there is only one guy on that list who hasn't been in multiple camps -- Kenny Cooper. The only other guys who may not be capped are Stuart Holden and Robbie Rogers. Holden doesn't even start for his club team regularly. And this is a MLS side, not the EPL. Rogers, IMHO, didn't impress in the Olympics, so thinking he is going to lead us to glory at the full national team level is a bit of a stretch.

The rest have been selected by Braldey multiple times. So, other than your love of the "F" word, it's hard to see where you are disagreeing with Braldey other than you would have some type of age limit on the team (it isn't about skill as in what world is Michael Orozco skilled with the ball and Eddie Lewis isn't).

With the right coaching Rogers could lead a team to glory. As shown in the MLS he is very good.

[m vann]

I think the debate on Bradley is damn near as agonizing and spun around just as much as the McCain-Obama fiasco. Not really, as the ramifications as much less, but you get my point' ;) Seriously though, what do we want from Bradley? We wanted tougher competition on the road. We got that. Mixed results but experience nonetheless. We wanted to participate in the Copa America. We got that. I do fault the Fed for not splitting priorities between the Copa and Gold Cup, though. We wanted new, young players integrated into the system. We got that with Adu, Altidore, Szetela, Edu, Kljestan, etc. We wanted to sore up our defensive play. We've done that. Surrendering 24 goals in 29 internationals over a 2 year span (19 in 18 games in '07 & 5 in 11 games in '08). We wanted to expand our scouting perimeter. We've done that. Look at what info that was presented with the courtship of Torres. We wanted to dump Johnson. We've done that. For the time being anyway. We wanted to introduce the Latin players. We're doing that with Orozco and Torres. We wanted more expectations and more accountability placed on Bradley. That's happening. My only concern is scoring. I don't think that's increased. Something does need to happen on that front. But if you don't have the players which we don't it's hard to drastically increase it.

I could go on. The bottom line is that none of us know exactly what is or what is not needed to succeed on the international level. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes. It's fun to speculate and put our spin on things. :) I'll be the first to say Bradley is frustrating. He often leaves me scratching my head. I'll be the first to say I haven't always seen eye to eye with his player selections, tactics, etc. I'll be the first to bust his balls when we play badly; the first to praise him when play well. As frustrating as he can be, he has gotten results. That's all I give damn about. It's hard to argue against results. I don't care how we do it, as long as we get them. I don't buy into the "sexy football" notion that many want to play because we don't have the history or players in our pool. I want results. We have those. I feel better than I did 2 years ago, 1 year ago, 6 months ago, and even 3 months ago about our national team. It ain't an easy road or a smooth path but we are headed in the right direction. We don't have time to waste with the WC upon us before we know it but I'm optimistic we will improve.

[Prime Time]

Look, face it, under the current regime we are destined, DESTINED, for a group of death no-qualify or something like a 0-5 Spain octofinals debacle.

Shouldn't we say, "F it," we finally have some skill -- unlike last cycle (Dempsey, Convey, that's it) -- and we're going to just throw it out there in a legit offensive formation, a la Olympics, and hopefully kick some arse (a la Olympics)?

Thus, shouldn't we try to play, at every national team opportunity, the following players:

Edu
Bradley
Kleijstan
Adu
Rogers
Holden
Orozco
Feilheiber
Szetala
Torres
Altidore
Cooper
Davies

And why ever play:

Johnson
Ching
Wolff
Lewis
Hedjuk

Doesn't history show that dominating CONCACAF is pointless? And that putting maximum skill on the WC pitch is dispositive?

Isn't this the cycle, finally, where we can say...let's go for it?

Bradley disagrees. Well F Bradley. I have no inclination to wait to lose at some piont in 2010. I'd rather go for it and lose with Adu et al. rather than endure last cycle's abomination.


Here we go again...:rolleyes:

[deuteronomy]

Here we go again...:rolleyes:
I was hoping to find some pixie dust in this thread somewhere . . . :D

[minya]

I fear for your life. Don't you know you can't say those kinds of things here?

No matter where it's said it's a sign of a lethal brain decease.

[arkjayback]

Those difference makers may still be a bit too young too fully rely on them: Adu, Altidore, Rogers, Szetela, Feilhaber, Davies, Torres, etc are still like 23 and younger. And because of their age, many of them are still riding the pine in Europe.

Yes, Ching, Wolff, and Johnson should not be called in. (Johnson maybe if we see some of that great old form) But Donovan, Dempsey, Beasley, Cherundolo, and company are still the most experienced, still more technically skilled, and are going to spearhead the US in South Africa.

But yes, after 2010. A foreign coach is the answer. Wynne, Torres, Altidore, Kljestan, Adu, Feilhaber, Holden, Rogers, Edu, etc will be more in their prime and have more experience and will be more of an attacking talent pool.

[CarlitosWay]

I think Ching has to be considered - his turn to win a penalty in the Gold Cup and assist to Dempsey away to Cuba are surely evidence of his "skill."

I think instead of naming players, perhaps you want a youth movement and a 4-3-3 formation with two wingers, two attacking mids, and one holding midfielder. This worked at the Under 20's, almost worked at the Olympics, and I think the US should have it as an option. However, as much as I'd like to sign up for fit all formation, ultimately when Cuba puts 10 behind the ball, we need flexibility.

I too yearn for collective attacking football played on the ground, but we are at least two generations of players from being to pull it off. For now, be happy with goals off setpieces, cleansheets, and qualification.

[DonJuego]

The premise of this thread is that strong international players are created by playing them in international games and that Bradley has to develop the players the USMNT needs by bringing them in and playing them. Thus, it is concluded that Altidore, who has never performed in MLS at the level Brian Ching has, should play before Ching. Altidore should play because he has greater potential than Ching and should thus, we all hope, be a better player by 2010. So we play Altidore to develop him.

I disagree with the premise. I disagree that international games are where you develop players. I believe players are created and grown to their top potential in their day-to-day club play. I believe Bob Bradley's job is to pick the best team of players as they exist. I disagree with choosing players because of perceived potential.

Especially WCQ is not a development program and there is no need for it to be. If Josy, and other young guns are the talent we need in 2010 they will develop as needed in club soccer while getting experience in U21 and U23.