Calling People Racists...

[kpaulson]

isn't the end of the story.

To those of you who think Vergara is a "racist", you need to get out of the US some. What he's saying is pure nationalism and, as a result, undoubtedly acceptable where he's from (as it would be in many other countries).

Of course, he's coming to our country. That implies a need for a certain respect to our racial sensibilities. His failure to do so is disappointing, like when Germans wear Speedos on beaches, when Americans refuse to learn another language or when the English... well... when the English think that their behavior is acceptable anywhere besides England.

In other words, it's disappointing that Vergara doesn't understand our culture (and let me make it clear: I think the US is right about race and the rest of the world is playing catch-up), but is his faux-pas the equivalent of an American, coming from our culture, deciding to put on a white hood or beat up Reginald Denny cus he's white? No, it just isn't as blame-worthy.


But just as Vergara isn't a racist, I also don't think I've heard many anti-Chivasistas on this board who are actually racist. Most anti-Chivasistas cling to a "Color-blind" ideal that helped us fight the real bad guy segregationists in the 50s-60s. Being color-blind has a noble past, so I don't blame people for holding it as their ideal.

However, you have to ask what those bad guy segregationists from the 50s-60s would think of Vergara and Chivas USA playing in MLS. If I had to guess, the old school segregationists wouldn't want to have CHivas play in MLS at all and they wouldn't be very happy about a Mexican owner. They probably would note that it would perfectly fine for Chivas to play in its own league, but not ours.

So, at the end of the day, I guess my question to those who hold a colorblind ideal to be an absolute principle: I know you're not racists, but doesn't it make you uncomfortable that your application of the color-blind ideal (i.e. an ideal developed to fight old school segregationists) to Chivas USA would lead to exactly the result that those old school segregationists would've liked?

[greenbill]

Yesterday I got a migrane from reading all of these Chivas threads (Seriously!).

[soccerfan]

kpaulson, i read your post but i don't understand what is your question, sorry i don't have much clue about the 50-60, and in depth history on segragation. Only thing i know is that Vergara shouldn't try to make this into nationalistic "thing", if he wants to be in MLS and our league then play by the rules and show some respect, above all keep his mouth shot for what i can see only crap comes out of it. he is the guy that steps over everyone, on everyone with little regard on whos foot he is stepping on, sounds to me very selfish.

[kpaulson]

If you're not one of the people saying that Vergara is wrong because we are a colorblind society, my question wouldn't really apply to you as much.

As for whether Vergara doesn't care what foot he's stepping on, that was kind of a point of my post. While he is here to get people fired up, I don't think he has a clue that he's stepping on the sorest toe in America. Because he doesn't really know, sure you can get mad at him, but it's less blameworthy than if an American, who knows our history, does the same thing.

But Vergara's nationalism just doesn't worry me much. He's just another in a long line of maverick owners in professional sports. To me, that's just a healthy part of competition that doesn't threaten me at all.

[efernandez9]

kkkpaulson did not have a question, just a long rant!

is not a nationalistic 'thing' as some of you try to put it, listen to Garber: 'a team with Hispanic flare'

vergara will fill the gap he feels his investment will be served by, the other 10 MLS teams can recruit from the same old sources.....

Imagine a team like:

Jonny walker
clavijo - llamosa - R Suarez - Balboa (if active)
pareja- Echeverry- Daniel hernandez

pescaito Ruiz- Gonzalez (sub20) - and the best forward college soccer has to offer....

Not hard to put eleven names, with Hispanic roots, that adopted USA as Home or Born Here. So what is so crazy about his investment with some 'hispanic flare'?

[LMvCP]

http://mediotiempo.com/images/jugadores/288.jpg

http://mediotiempo.com/images/jugadores/100.jpg

he is not looking at color. those boys are as caucasion as you and me and they play for Chivas.

Garber and Vergara are not looking at color, they are looking at a language barrier. A barrier that has not been broken with the inclusion of Hugo Sanchez, Luis Hernandez, Jorge Campos, & Carlos Hermosillo.

There is a reason Donovan has been on Spanish shows and radio

[Various Styles]

Originally posted by soccerfan

Only thing i know is that Vergara shouldn't try to make this into nationalistic "thing", if he wants to be in MLS and our league then play by the rules and show some respect, above all keep his mouth shot for what i can see only crap comes out of it.

First It wasnt Vergaras idea to bring Chivas to the MLS. This is something Phil and Azcarraga (ex FMF rep) had been working on since last year. And we have to keep in Mind that Vergara is just not simply buying an expansion team in the MLS he is bringing over the Chivas name and he must be real careful not to piss off the fans or screw up the clubs image..


Second Vergara is using the Nationalistic "thing" to market to the Mexican American fan that the MLS is after and hasnt been able to get. In the end its all hype to create News and have people talking about the Club..

:) :)

[uclacarlos]

Originally posted by kpaulson
As for whether Vergara doesn't care what foot he's stepping on, that was kind of a point of my post. While he is here to get people fired up, I don't think he has a clue that he's stepping on the sorest toe in America. Because he doesn't really know, sure you can get mad at him, but it's less blameworthy than if an American, who knows our history, does the same thing.

KP: I enjoyed your initial post, as it highlights a key issue that we forget about.

But likewise, what ppl don't realize is the US Southwest comprises an integral part of Mexican AND Latin American identity. When the US won 1/2 of Mexico's land, not only was it a blow to Mexico, it served as a sign of impending domination of the US in Latin America. Just like Che Guevara, Simon Bolivar, Andres Bello, Jose Marti and others are icons deeply entrenched in a pan-Latino psyche, so too are Manifest Destiny and the US Mexican War remembered.

Americans don't have a clue about this side of US history viewed from a Mexican/Latino perspective. Sam Houston appropriated parts of OTHER Mexican states that weren't even a part of Texas, when he forced Santa Ana to cede Texas (a state of Mexico) plus plush parts of a separate state.

What ppl fail to realize is that the rhetoric we've seen here ("I just don't trust Vergara", "Mexicans are foreigners") actually became part of a de facto state propaganda in order to justify an emerging social order in which the Gringo held the upper hand politically, economically and socially. Some areas in the Southwest were able to maintain a Latino landed gentry (parts of Texas and New Mexico; California, however, did not).

This phenomenon of building an ideology which justifies social order is not unique to the US; every society has done it. We are pack animals by nature: the pack DEFINES itself via that which does NOT belong in the pack, ie the 'other'. So it isn't that Americans are more racist than others.

It's just sports (and notably futbol) are an arena which mark cultural assimilation. In soccer, we all constantly hear that "Americans don't like soccer". This in essence calls Latinos "foreigners" and contributes to their perception as well as the rest of the US' perception that they are 'foreigners' and NOT American.

So yeah, Vergara is proving his ignorance of US culture, but we are proving our ignorance of Mexican as well as Mexican American culture. It cuts both ways.

[efernandez9]

rdl76..... I think we just found a place for el Chivas martinez (burn) even Ochoa (a product of Los angeles galaxy, before his move to FMF)

Rizzo (denver rapids)

Alejandro Moreno....non mex, but with dual citizenship will do for now.

[Joe Stoker]

kpaulson, my eyes are a bit older and move a bit slower, so I could digest and appreciate your take on this subject which seems to have dominated this board like nothing I've seen to date. I was indeed around thru the 50s & 60s. That hatred, fueled by extremists in each camp, was IMO aimed at skin color first & foremost. It was shallow and stupid and ignored, suffocated, the bigger issue of equal rights. But with Chivas USA, it indeed becomes a matter of potential nationalism and cultural & language difference. So, to a degree, you're all correct.

What I've yet to see addressed along this line is the comparison to the NHL of my younger days... when the Montreal Canadiens were an openly francophile org from ownership down to the players, ushers, and stick-boys.
A different language and most certainly a nationalistic (Quebec) culture. Read up on the Richard Riots sometime. But the NHL was Canada's league to begin with, so the comparison with Chivas USA & MLS may not perfectly fit. But it shows that two cultures have survived in a North American sports league before.

Back in '67-68, with the NASL sporting clubs in both Canada & the States, I wondered if the day would come when Mexican concerns would want to make it a truly North American league. Of course, I was largely ignorant of the Mexican League. Now, this Chivas USA issue has brought my old "what ifs" to life. But this is not a "North American" league. That's not what MLS led us to believe. They should handle this very carefully. I would not expect less.

Pardon the ramble, but this issue is either dynamite or the world's largest white elephant, depending on the perspective. A hot tamale or hot air. And some of my favorite foods are tamales!

[soccerfan]

Originally posted by Various Styles
[i]
First It wasnt Vergaras idea to bring Chivas to the MLS. This is something Phil and Azcarraga (ex FMF rep) had been working on since last year.
And we have to keep in Mind that Vergara is just not simply buying an expansion team in the MLS he is bringing over the Chivas name and he must be real careful not to piss off the fans or screw up the clubs image..
Second Vergara is using the Nationalistic "thing" to market to the Mexican American fan that the MLS is after and hasnt been able to get. In the end its all hype to create News and have people talking about the Club..

:) :)

We need to clear something up, and I belive signals must have been crossed here. I do not belive and correct me if I am wrong, we need to know who had the idea of Chivas_usa, i can't belive it came from MLS, i bet you it was Vergara's idea. Do we want him to bring a Chivas team here in MLS , i don't, but i welcome him to MLS and to get an expansion team. Make it the Cows or Aztecs or whatever then he doesn't have to defend anything or feel responsible to the Mexican people and Chivas fans.
I am sure he would succeed in attracting 90% hispanics to his new MLS team without creating games where the rest of the MLS teams(fans) would direct their hate towards mexicans instead of the Cows or Aztec team.
Forming a Chivas_usa team would just create more divisions and hatrated between the two nations. I want to see unity not division, i want to see friendship not hate. Chivas_usa is a big mistake.

[chaski]

Originally posted by uclacarlos
But likewise, what ppl don't realize is the US Southwest comprises an integral part of Mexican AND Latin American identity. When the US won 1/2 of Mexico's land, not only was it a blow to Mexico, it served as a sign of impending domination of the US in Latin America. Just like Che Guevara, Simon Bolivar, Andres Bello, Jose Marti and others are icons deeply entrenched in a pan-Latino psyche, so too are Manifest Destiny and the US Mexican War remembered.

Americans don't have a clue about this side of US history viewed from a Mexican/Latino perspective. What "Mexican/Latino" perspective? In my experience, most Peruvians do not know that part of the US once belonged to Mexico. I'll bet most Mexicans don't know that parts of Chile used to belong to Peru and Bolivia.
Maybe you've been in Aztlan too long. ;)

[Various Styles]

Originally posted by soccerfan

We need to clear something up, and I belive signals must have been crossed here. I do not belive and correct me if I am wrong, we need to know who had the idea of Chivas_usa, i can't belive it came from MLS, i bet you it was Vergara's idea.

Vergara was not around when the Chivas USA idea was first proposed. At that time Club Guadalajara (Chivas) was going bankrupt and Burillo Azcaraga (Atlante/Pegasus) who back then was an influential figure in the FMF along with Phil (AEG) were going to sponser Chivas which was also in danger of getting relegated. However Vergara pulled a fast one and straight out bought the Club. Im thinking Phil (AEG) plays an important role in this. I mean he owns half the teams in the league and most likely will sell one to Televisa (America)

[masterklh]

The only thing I disagree with is..

I am sure he would succeed in attracting 90% hispanics to his new MLS team without creating games where the rest of the MLS teams(fans) would direct their hate towards mexicans instead of the Cows or Aztec team

I might hate Chivas USA, but I in no way hate Mexicans or anyone of ethnicity different than mine(white). I might disagree with Vergara and the way he thinks, I might not like the way the Chivas USA club is run, but no way would I hate a race or nationality of people because of a specific individual or team...

I have many black friends, My best friend is black, have dated many black women, yet I hate Luis Farakan what the nation of islam preaches (notice I don't hate all nation followers :p )

This is just how I personally feel and how I would treat the Chivas team.. I would respect any talented person on there squad, but Does not mean I have to like the owner or what the team represents.

[uclacarlos]

Originally posted by chaski
What "Mexican/Latino" perspective? In my experience, most Peruvians do not know that part of the US once belonged to Mexico. Maybe you've been in Aztlan too long. ;)
No, perhaps I’ve been reading too many 19th and 20th century Latin American essayists, poets and politicians. Perhaps too many late 20th century cantoautores are in the mix as well. Monroe’s Manifest Destiny turned quite a few heads, but the taking of ½ of Mexico’s territory brought about mass suicides the likes of which have not been matched until this summer, when thousands of BS posters began a mass hare kare b/c the Mexicans were coming to MLS, first for the All-Star Game, now Chivas and later Club America. ;)

But in all seriousness, in my experience, the average Mexican knows more about California history than the average Californian. Bear in mind that up until the ‘30s, anybody could cross the border; the border states were/are totally accustomed to crossing the “border”.

In Latin America, my experience is that the countries that have been directly affected by a US invasion or “police action” or de facto invasions (Chile, ’73) are more likely to have an active consciousness of this. In the arts it proliferates, however…

[masterklh]

the average Mexican knows more about California history than the average Californian

Hehe, I agree. I think the average non American person knows more about American history than most americans. USA has become a culture of advanced education. We lack complete classical education here. IE: Geography, History, Math etc..

That is why when they do those polls and take the average person on the streets and ask where X place is, 75% of the time they do not even get the right continent, nevermind the general area.

Americans also lack current events information, or lack of caring I should say compared to my many Euro friends who actually keep up with current events. If it does not effect us, we simply do not care. This does not apply to all of course :)

[greenbill]

Originally posted by masterklh
...We lack complete classical education here. IE: Geography, History, Math etc..

Wow!...uncanny that you mention this since I was just talking to a co-worker about the lack of classical education in people today.

[chaski]

Originally posted by uclacarlos

In Latin America, my experience is that the countries that have been directly affected by a US invasion or “police action” or de facto invasions (Chile, ’73) are more likely to have an active consciousness of this. That must be why the rest of the Andes does not share the "Mexican/Latino perspective".

And there are also plenty of folks there who don't regard Bolivar as a "Liberator".

[kpaulson]

yeah, Americans can be pretty book dumb. But there's never been better evidence of the saying "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" than Europe. Folks over here will argue with me about how American "really" is based on things they've seen in films... Often, I wonder if that kind of ignorance-- a false confidence in what you know-- isn't actually more dangerous than America's simple lack of interest in the outside world.

[masterklh]

Two things in this country that I am passionate about...

1) People who feel they have the right to burn the flag. As an American Veteran of 2 Foreign Wars at the ripe old age of 25 I find this topic very.. Dishartning. Protest the Government or current administration, Never, EVER, burn the symbol of that which gives you and many others around the world there freedom's.

2) Our Government spending Billions on Foreign Countrys in which I feel that money should go to Inner city schools and teachers.

Im from a small town of 7,000 people, only 2 minority family in it we never had any school issues, lack of books desks teachers etc.. Our crime rate was pretty much non existant.

But I believe the 90 billion we just gave to the Iraq / Afghanistan war would be better spent in say some school in Harlem or South Central. If that 90 billion helps 300 kids a year stay out of gangs, further there education, make something of themselves in 15 years you see gangs numbers drop way down.. 300 X 15 = 4,500 + the overflow from lack of peer pressure.

Family centers in the Inner city.. etc.. Im not saying the inner city is the cause of all the problems in the US, but that is where a vast majority of problems lie and you can do some preventive maintenance it goes a long way..

But the Administration does not care about this because it is a long term fix, and quite honestly.. they could care less about results 10 years from now, that will not get them re-elected in 2/4 years.

And this has what to deal with soccer? NOTHING! But it really just wanted to post some thoughts since this thread had some education topics in it :p