Manchester United - Fulham [R]

[Mac_Howard]

>in a perfect world, Fletcher could fill that creative midfield role and Nardiello/Solskjaer/Cooper could fill the Ruud's partner role.

You're an inveterate optimist, Motterman :)

In the REAL world Utd are just one injury away from a very serious position. Should Ruud so much as turn an ankle, pull a muscle or even stub his toe in a weekend's match then Utd will go into the crucial match with Rangers without a single striker, either on the pitch or the bench, who can be relied on to score. We could be going into that match seeing how Phil Neville plays as a lone striker. I joke of course ............ perhaps we'll try Barthez ;)

It isn't necessary! It is appalling complacency by Alex and the board. While other clubs with similar ambitions to Utd are carefully rotating their squad to keep players fresh and simultaneously keeping them happy with sufficient first team football, Utd have a bench without a single player that could legitimately claim a first team place. Competition for places? Forget it! Rest players? The quality of play takes a nose dive. Injuries? Pray it happens in defensive midfield.

You can dream about youngsters coming through and solving the problem but I'll continue to push for Utd to use the January window and some of that money they realised in the off-season to bring in experienced players to fill out an inadequate squad. Hopefully by then we'll still be in with a shout for the Premiership and still lined up for the later stages of the CL but not if we continue to perform as we did on Saturday (not to speak of mediocre performances against Leeds and Rangers).

[johno]

Originally posted by Motterman

I think our main priorities should be:

A) a strike partner for Ruud, who can also play as the lone target man in the 4-5-1 if needed

B) a proven creative player as cover for Scholes

Unless we fill at least one of these roles, we're not going to win the Champions League this year.

Yeah Motts you were right of course but you have to vent somehow, and hitting the computer is not an option. I just could not believe he would chose to rest them both at the same time. But yes on to your quote...

Rivaldo fits A and B, and He is also cover for Giggs.


Next thing, speaking of someone not cuptied, who is decent but also cheap there is a Brazilian in the mold of Gaucho who plays in Japan, for S-Pulse I believe, I think his name is Alessandro Santos, or something like that. He is cover for Scholes, Giggs, and can play at right half as well, and he is more mature than Ronaldo.

[Motterman]

Originally posted by machoward


You can dream about youngsters coming through and solving the problem...

Fergie should know that he'll NEVER win with kids. :rolleyes:

[van_da_man]

Originally posted by mtkillamanjohno

Next thing, speaking of someone not cuptied, who is decent but also cheap there is a Brazilian in the mold of Gaucho who plays in Japan, for S-Pulse I believe, I think his name is Alessandro Santos, or something like that. He is cover for Scholes, Giggs, and can play at right half as well, and he is more mature than Ronaldo.

there is a huge difference between the japanese league and the EPL/CL.

I no that we could give him time to get used to the league, but at the moment, we need more of a quick fix.

[blackpool fc mark]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by van_da_man
[B]there is a huge difference between the japanese league and the EPL/CL.

Yeah and theres a big difference between MLS and the premier league but Howard is doin ok.

Now, lets see, Man Utd need a creative midfielder to cover for Scholesy, but isnt cup tied. How about Paul Gascoigne.

[skipshady]

Originally posted by mtkillamanjohno
Next thing, speaking of someone not cuptied, who is decent but also cheap there is a Brazilian in the mold of Gaucho who plays in Japan, for S-Pulse I believe, I think his name is Alessandro Santos, or something like that. He is cover for Scholes, Giggs, and can play at right half as well, and he is more mature than Ronaldo. A few things.
- Santos, or Alex as he is known commonly, is Japanese, not Brazilian. Otherwise, he couldn't play for Japan.
- He is a winger/withdrawn forward but I have never seen him play on the right. Maybe he could, but as far as I know, left is his preferred side.
- Alex hasn't played all that well for Shimizu and it's a mystery to a lot of observers as to why he keeps getting capped for Japan.
- And Zico has played him at left back for the past 6 months with positive results on the attacking end but dreadful on defense.
- He was all but siged, sealed and delivered to Charlton last summer but he did not have the requisite 75% of caps over 2 years. Now he is at around 80% and is now linked with Leeds.

[haven]

1. Who cares if they're cup-tied? This isn't Man Utd's year to win the CL. They had a shot last year. They'll have another good chance in 2 years. That was conceded after Utd failed to land Ronaldinho, and instead bought youth.

2. Man Utd's attack is nearly impotent w/o Scholes. Utd haven't been prolific against any team with a decent defense this year. And they look positively anemic without Scholes. That's what happen when all your other central midfielders play defense better than offense... and your wingers are good, but crossing doesn't work so well when RVN is outnumbered in the box.

3. Utd need A. a real partner for Ruud and B. a good back-up (or partner, if you want to play single-striker) for Scholes in the attacking third. Everybody knows this. In fact, most of us suspected it before the season started. Why hasn't a purchase been made? No real answers. It could be excessive faith in RVN, a prayer that no injuries will occur, a recognition that the team probably was never going to win the league anyway, an unavailability of players, or an unwillingness to compete with Chelsea in spending big money initially.

Who the hell knows? But you can't win the league if you can't score goals - and Utd can't right now.

[KevTheGooner]

Like many people have said here, better to lose those games in October than April. Just ask us Gooners.

Seems like Ruud is out of sorts, and when your top striker is off, everything seems to fall apart. Plus Fergies team selection was questionable Saturday. You'll be there, don't worry. At least you guys are talking about winning the CL..I'd be floored if we made the next round!

[Lancashire Lad]

Originally posted by machoward
>in a perfect world, Fletcher could fill that creative midfield role and Nardiello/Solskjaer/Cooper could fill the Ruud's partner role.

You're an inveterate optimist, Motterman :)

In the REAL world Utd are just one injury away from a very serious position. Should Ruud so much as turn an ankle, pull a muscle or even stub his toe in a weekend's match then Utd will go into the crucial match with Rangers without a single striker, either on the pitch or the bench, who can be relied on to score. We could be going into that match seeing how Phil Neville plays as a lone striker. I joke of course ............ perhaps we'll try Barthez ;)

It isn't necessary! It is appalling complacency by Alex and the board. While other clubs with similar ambitions to Utd are carefully rotating their squad to keep players fresh and simultaneously keeping them happy with sufficient first team football, Utd have a bench without a single player that could legitimately claim a first team place. Competition for places? Forget it! Rest players? The quality of play takes a nose dive. Injuries? Pray it happens in defensive midfield.

You can dream about youngsters coming through and solving the problem but I'll continue to push for Utd to use the January window and some of that money they realised in the off-season to bring in experienced players to fill out an inadequate squad. Hopefully by then we'll still be in with a shout for the Premiership and still lined up for the later stages of the CL but not if we continue to perform as we did on Saturday (not to speak of mediocre performances against Leeds and Rangers).

Excellent post Machoward, could have written it better myself.

We are now well stocked with defensive midfield players. Of for the days of (in top form and mainly because we had choice of players up front) of Ole, Teddy, Cole and Yorke. Not that I am after Yorke and Cole back. But we had quality experienced cover. What happened? With an injured Ole what happens if Ruud is injured, even for a couple of weeks, which is possible.

Someone needs to kick butt and get the squad sorted out, by that I mean experienced quality players. SAF needs a tactically aware number 2.

Striker and creative midfield player must be top priorities. Need a striker most of all though.

[Motterman]

Yes we need cover for Ruud (it wouldn't hurt if that striker could partner Ruud as well as fill in), and we should make this a top priority.

The only team with quality depth up front is Chelsea - and that's cause they spent millions and millions. United won't do that. Every other top team in the EPL is reliant on their number 1 striker:

Liverpool - Owen
Arsenal - Henry
Newcastle - Shearer
United - RVN

Take any of these players out of their current team for an extended period of time and they each will suffer.

Our main problem at the moment is that Solksjaer is hurt. While Liverpool are without Baros and Newcastle is without Bellamy. Arsenal still have Bergkamp however, and that's an advantage.

Chelsea have JFH, Mutu, Crespo, Gudjohnson and can recall Forssell if needed as well as even play Duff up front. Bloody hell... Now I'm pissed off! :(

[johno]

Originally posted by Motterman
Yes we need cover for Ruud (it wouldn't hurt if that striker could partner Ruud as well as fill in), and we should make this a top priority.

The only team with quality depth up front is Chelsea - and that's cause they spent millions and millions. United won't do that. Every other top team in the EPL is reliant on their number 1 striker:

Liverpool - Owen
Arsenal - Henry
Newcastle - Shearer
United - RVN

Take any of these players out of their current team for an extended period of time and they each will suffer.

Our main problem at the moment is that Solksjaer is hurt. While Liverpool are without Baros and Newcastle is without Bellamy. Arsenal still have Bergkamp however, and that's an advantage.

Chelsea have JFH, Mutu, Crespo, Gudjohnson and can recall Forssell if needed as well as even play Duff up front. Bloody hell... Now I'm pissed off! :(

Ok, Ok, relax, I've seen this sort of thing before. Just lay down, take one Rivaldo in the winter and a Saviola next summer and you should be right as rain.

Dr. Killamanjohno

remember an Argentinian a day keeps the relegators away.

[Mac_Howard]

Following my post above, in which I'm saying that Utd need these players because the team's performance slumps the moment they move away from their best dozen or so players, I took a look at the team selection in their poorest games. Here's some interesting facts:

For me the unacceptable performances this season have come in the matches against Wolves (a dire 1-0 win at home), Southampton (a 1-0 loss) and Fulham (3-1 loss). Utd have taken just 3 points from 9 in these three matches as against 19 from 21 in the other 7. In these three games Utd have scored just 2 goals and conceded 4. In the other 7 games they have scored 16 goals and conceded just 2.

In other words, their scoring rate in these three games is a quarter of that in the other seven and they have conceded goals at 4 times the rate.

So, Wolves, Southampton and Fulham are the games in which Utd fall way below par.

Forlan has started just three Premiership games this season: Wolves, Southampton and Fulham!!!

DjDj has started in just four Premiership games this season: Wolves, Southampton, Fulham and Newcastle.

Kleberson has started in two games: Wolves and Southampton.

Scholes played vitually no part in the matches against Wolves, Southampton and Fulham (started in the first but was subbed after 22 minutes and came on for the last 20 minutes of the Fulham game).

In other words, when two or more of Forlan, DjDj and Klebersen are in the starting lineup (and therefore first choice players, particularly Scholes, are not) Utd's performance slumps.

Another stat that has me worried: RvN has started in all 13 Premiership and CL games and played every single minute of them all. That's a quick way to burnout!

And another stat: though RvN has scored 9 goals this season only one has been scored while Forlan was on the pitch (in the 4-0 win over Bolton - 3 of the goals had already been scored when he came on).

That last comment had me work out another stat:

In the 4 and a half matches (407 minutes) Forlan has been on the pitch Utd have score 4 goals. In the 8 and a half matches (764 minutes) he's not been on the pitch Utd have scored 21 goals.So a rate of scoring of 1 goal in 102 minutes with him on the pitch and one goal every 36 minutes when he's not.

[sch2383]

I think we need to buy big here. Everybody knows what could happen if we lose Ruud and Forlan does not look like the guy to take his place. The problem with Saviola is that he plays more like Scholes, so he would be a great partner, but not a great replacement.

Imagine this attacking 5:

------RVN--Saviola-------
--------Scholes---------
Giggs-------------Ronaldo

The thought of that makes me drool.

[johno]

Originally posted by sch2383
I think we need to buy big here. Everybody knows what could happen if we lose Ruud and Forlan does not look like the guy to take his place. The problem with Saviola is that he plays more like Scholes, so he would be a great partner, but not a great replacement.

Imagine this attacking 5:

------RVN--Saviola-------
--------Scholes---------
Giggs-------------Ronaldo

The thought of that makes me drool.

Saviola and Giggs could be part of a 3 striker formation like Rivaldo Kluiv and Saviola did at Barca for a time... Saviola is similar to Scholes yes, (he is a smaller, faster, better dribbling freak of a player) but he has played as a loan target man for Rijkaard this season, last game he did and scored. Saviola and Giggs could partner as if Ruud went down, because face it, theres, Ruud, Vieri, Schevchenko, and maybe one more guy that could beat a champs league defence on their own, everyone else needs help so if Ruud went down we would have to play a 4-4-2 So you could see...

----------Giggs--Saviola--------
-------------Scholes-----------
Ronaldo-------------------Ole/Fletcher

I agree though, Scholes and Saviola working as a tandem to service Ruud and score would make beating us a distant hope for most clubs...
----------------Ruud--------------
-----------Saviola---Scholes------
Giggs-------------------------Ronaldo
----------------Keane---------------

with a formation like that Scholes could drop back and help seal the middle of the park and bring the ball up with Keane allowing Giggs and Saviola and Ronaldo to lead counter attacks.

[johno]

Really, with a more sober mind now... we dont really need another top flight striker in the first team... Nardiello and company should do well as back ups for the moment until next season. What we need is a healthy Ole Gunnar. We also have to stop playing this silly 4-5-1. If Arsene Wenger had Henry and Ole on his team the last 6 years Arsenal would have no less than 4 EPL titles... We just need to play Ole and Ruud together as Strikers... play a damn 4-4-2 leave Ronaldo out on the right wing and if need be play the ball mostly on the left side of the pitch, there are many top flight teams that only attack from one side... We dont score enough goals and I think that we waste Scholes' playmaking talent by playing only Ruud in front of him because every defender in the world knows who he is passing the ball to, still somehow, he manages to squeeze those through balls through though. Ole can play off of Ruud and he is such a great player, and he's paid his dues, he is the kind of player that should start every game for us. He's been there through it all him Scholes Keane and Giggs, and the other 3 are permanent starters, he is no less a talent than they are...

[haven]

You know, if Utd was creating chances left and right... I could understand the "what we need is a partner/back-up for RVN" perspective.

But there aren't many chances. Granted, the strikers haven't exactly been burying what's presented... but Utd have been failing to create much of anything. The central midfield is the problem, damnit!

Rosicky! :) (or failing that, at least Steed Malbranque ;) ).

[bigdush]

I agree with the need for another striker, but not so much for cover. I think one is needed to challenge Ruud (if possible) a little. I think he would respond to the challenge well and make us all say "why the hell did Sir Alex go for a striker with RVN pounding the bag so well".

mmmmmm.......rosicky.......tasty, crafty midfielder.