Eurostand 2008 campaign

[Bauser]

Many supporterclubs from about 20 countries in Europe signed up to support the Eurostand which is a protest campaign against what modern football has become for the hardcore supporter who attends games. Among the subjects were:

- Allow standing sections
- Reduce ticket prices
- Stop selling names of stadiums and clubs

More about this here:

http://www.eurostand08.com/en/info

Here in Norway I think 12 top division clubs showed some kind of support for the campaign by displaying huge banners and keeping completely quiet for the first 15 minutes of the matches, then suddenly outburst in a huge roar at the 15 minute mark to end the protest. At least we did at my club Fredrikstad in the match against Rosenborg the other week.

How did it go elsewhere around Europe? Any buzz at all in the media?

[siyam]

what are you expectin' from the members in this site?? they are mainly english and amercian who loves glory and money...
If you real football lover, just come ultrastifo.net, or ultraspirit or etc...

Ultras is fighting for 20 years...that's why in italy the athmosphere still amazing and in england is dead...

No al Calcio Moderno...

Against the Modern Football...

[The Potter]

Many supporterclubs from about 20 countries in Europe signed up to support the Eurostand which is a protest campaign against what modern football has become for the hardcore supporter who attends games. Among the subjects were:

- Allow standing sections
- Reduce ticket prices
- Stop selling names of stadiums and clubs

More about this here:

http://www.eurostand08.com/en/info

Here in Norway I think 12 top division clubs showed some kind of support for the campaign by displaying huge banners and keeping completely quiet for the first 15 minutes of the matches, then suddenly outburst in a huge roar at the 15 minute mark to end the protest. At least we did at my club Fredrikstad in the match against Rosenborg the other week.

How did it go elsewhere around Europe? Any buzz at all in the media?

Not seen any, shame. Though I do think standing areas in England are only a matter of time.

[RichardL]

Ultras is fighting for 20 years...that's why in italy the athmosphere still amazing and in england is dead...

yet go back a decade or two and the atmosphere in England was great, an not an ultra in sight. And the atmosphere, even now, still can be great, again without any ultras.


No al Calcio Moderno...

Against the Modern Football...
How about German football? They have the most moderns stadiums in europe in the top two tiers, and they have a great atmosphere.

It's possible to have new grounds, modern clubs, and have an atmosphere. The problem you have is that your ultras seem to think football violence is an essential part of the game, and without it there'd be no atmosphere. That's utter cack, but like the Burberry boys here, they'll do anything to try and pretend that kicking the shit out of bystanders for fun is all in some noble cause.

[RichardL]

Not seen any, shame. Though I do think standing areas in England are only a matter of time.

Remarkable how club chairman haven't yet noticed that rather than having 8000 people sat in one end paying £30 each, you could have 12000 standing there probably paying £25 each, and make more money.

[siyam]

yet go back a decade or two and the atmosphere in England was great, an not an ultra in sight. And the atmosphere, even now, still can be great, again without any ultras.


How about German football? They have the most moderns stadiums in europe in the top two tiers, and they have a great atmosphere.

It's possible to have new grounds, modern clubs, and have an atmosphere. The problem you have is that your ultras seem to think football violence is an essential part of the game, and without it there'd be no atmosphere. That's utter cack, but like the Burberry boys here, they'll do anything to try and pretend that kicking the shit out of bystanders for fun is all in some noble cause.

seriously mate, you don't know anything about the ULtras..so pls don't talk...
i knew that you r meta who every real football fans fightin' against...
if you really want to know what ultras mean, search it or when you come to italy just try to go match with them...if you still don't understand i will tell you what ultras means...

and about german thing...do you really know what you r talkin' about?? do you know the german ultras?? even in amateur league...so before you talk just search...and do you know in all german stadium there is a section is non-seater for only ultras and supporters group...



and just read a comment come from english football fan...

I’m old enough to remember when football was great in my home country (England). Although I will forever support the team I was born with I find myself travelling Europe looking for the atmosphere and passion to match that I remember from the past.

I went to my 1st game in 1986, I remember the old stadium it was cold, wet and freezing cold and the 1st time I stepped onto the terrace was a moment I will never forget. I remember the atmosphere, passion and the fear that went with football back then.

But now it’s gone, money, all-seater stadiums, over the top policing, passionless fans jumping on the bandwagon, and games on TV have killed everything that made football great. So if you’re armchair supporter with your Sky TV subscription then f**k you. If you’re not prepared to support your team no matter what then f**k you. If you only go to the football because it’s fashionable then f**k you. And of course f**k the police.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/r3volution/1491509534/

so, probably ppl like you is the main reason that football is dyin' ..pls stay at your home and don't go to mathces....or go to nfl and eat hot-dog..you really don't know what football it is and stand for...

oh..btw, an irish (SRFC Ultras) sent me this video...and after i read the comment, im glad that there r many english whose have football soul..still.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0tkwqhXTc4

[RichardL]

seriously mate, you don't know anything about the ULtras..so pls don't talk...
i knew that you r meta who every real football fans fightin' against...
if you really want to know what ultras mean, search it or when you come to italy just try to go match with them...if you still don't understand i will tell you what ultras means...

and about german thing...do you really know what you r talkin' about?? do you know the german ultras?? even in amateur league...so before you talk just search...and do you know in all german stadium there is a section is non-seater for only ultras and supporters group...

German ultras aren't about violence. Nor are italian ones on the whole, but violence is much more strongly linked to it in Italy.

Umm, yeah, I do know about standing in German grounds as I've been to loads of them.

Unremarkably, you entirely missed the point about German grounds. They are shining examples of "modern football", the kind you seem convinced would ruin football in Italy, yet clearly the game in Germany isn't ruined.

so what is it you despise about modern football, as it can't be new stadiums or you'd knock German football? Big tv contracts and mechandising riches perhaps? I'd ask you if the ultras of Milan, Inter, Juventus etc are campaigning against the riches their own clubs make, campaigning for lower tv deals, or is it just ticket prices, and a lessening of the willingness to give the ultras free tickets and make money selling merchandise, and stricter policing?


and just read a comment come from english football fan...

I’m old enough to remember when football was great in my home country (England). Although I will forever support the team I was born with I find myself travelling Europe looking for the atmosphere and passion to match that I remember from the past.

I went to my 1st game in 1986, I remember the old stadium it was cold, wet and freezing cold and the 1st time I stepped onto the terrace was a moment I will never forget. I remember the atmosphere, passion and the fear that went with football back then.

But now it’s gone, money, all-seater stadiums, over the top policing, passionless fans jumping on the bandwagon, and games on TV have killed everything that made football great. So if you’re armchair supporter with your Sky TV subscription then f**k you. If you’re not prepared to support your team no matter what then f**k you. If you only go to the football because it’s fashionable then f**k you. And of course f**k the police.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/r3volution/1491509534/

Steps needed to bring the atmosphere back to English grounds.

1. Bring back terraces.

There ends the list. It's pretty much that simple. That tv money has completely screwed things in other ways is a different issue.

And anyone who thinks policing now is over the top is either a hooligan who misses the chance to have a ruck in the ground because he'd be spotted on CCTV, or someone who is having a really selective memory about how heavy-handed policing was back in the 1980s. Police back then would remove their id numbers so they could wade in and crack a few heads. The sort of treatment foreign police often dish out to English fans abroad who try and be a bit lairy as they would back home, which provokes hails of anguish about police brutality now, used to be the norm in England back then.


so, probably ppl like you is the main reason that football is dyin' ..pls stay at your home and don't go to mathces....or go to nfl and eat hot-dog..you really don't know what football it is and stand for...


how is football dying? Crowds are shit in italy, but that's because of your beloved ultras to a certain degree, and that your stadiums are shit. How many stay away because of crowd violence?

The San Siro is big, for example, but it's a toilet, dirty, crumbling away with all the charm of a pissed-in tower block lift. It could and should be so much better. The home fans should have a proper terrace rather than having to stand on faded plastic seats, and those that want to sit should be able to do so without having to bring somethig to sit on to stop their trousers getting covered in 18 years of accumulated grime.

and as for me being the modern fan you despise...

yeah, because I spent most of my football supporting life watching Reading at Elm Park, perhaps the most terraced ground in the league by percentage of capacity, mainly in the lower divisions going to places like Hartlepool and Bury, watching some diabolical football week in, week out, home and away, often getting soaked and frozen on a miserable open away terrace, in an era when being a football fan saw you labelled scum in the eyes of society, because doing so was the posh, fashionable and trendy thing to do.

If you even saw a clue you wouldn't know it. It could come up to you wearing a t-shirt saying "I am a clue" and fart in your face saying "I'm a clue you thick witless gimp" and you still wouldn't recognise it.

[siyam]

German ultras aren't about violence. Nor are italian ones on the whole, but violence is much more strongly linked to it in Italy.

Umm, yeah, I do know about standing in German grounds as I've been to loads of them.

Unremarkably, you entirely missed the point about German grounds. They are shining examples of "modern football", the kind you seem convinced would ruin football in Italy, yet clearly the game in Germany isn't ruined.

so what is it you despise about modern football, as it can't be new stadiums or you'd knock German football? Big tv contracts and mechandising riches perhaps? I'd ask you if the ultras of Milan, Inter, Juventus etc are campaigning against the riches their own clubs make, campaigning for lower tv deals, or is it just ticket prices, and a lessening of the willingness to give the ultras free tickets and make money selling merchandise, and stricter policing?


Steps needed to bring the atmosphere back to English grounds.

1. Bring back terraces.

There ends the list. It's pretty much that simple. That tv money has completely screwed things in other ways is a different issue.

And anyone who thinks policing now is over the top is either a hooligan who misses the chance to have a ruck in the ground because he'd be spotted on CCTV, or someone who is having a really selective memory about how heavy-handed policing was back in the 1980s. Police back then would remove their id numbers so they could wade in and crack a few heads. The sort of treatment foreign police often dish out to English fans abroad who try and be a bit lairy as they would back home, which provokes hails of anguish about police brutality now, used to be the norm in England back then.




how is football dying? Crowds are shit in italy, but that's because of your beloved ultras to a certain degree, and that your stadiums are shit. How many stay away because of crowd violence?

The San Siro is big, for example, but it's a toilet, dirty, crumbling away with all the charm of a pissed-in tower block lift. It could and should be so much better. The home fans should have a proper terrace rather than having to stand on faded plastic seats, and those that want to sit should be able to do so without having to bring somethig to sit on to stop their trousers getting covered in 18 years of accumulated grime.

and as for me being the modern fan you despise...

yeah, because I spent most of my football supporting life watching Reading at Elm Park, perhaps the most terraced ground in the league by percentage of capacity, mainly in the lower divisions going to places like Hartlepool and Bury, watching some diabolical football week in, week out, home and away, often getting soaked and frozen on a miserable open away terrace, in an era when being a football fan saw you labelled scum in the eyes of society, because doing so was the posh, fashionable and trendy thing to do.

If you even saw a clue you wouldn't know it. It could come up to you wearing a t-shirt saying "I am a clue" and fart in your face saying "I'm a clue you thick witless gimp" and you still wouldn't recognise it.


omfg...i never talk with a person who don't know anything...do you know the problem-fans in germany?? or rude boys?? or the unity?? bultras?? Commando Giessen??etc....no violence?? i don't argue with you about that because i really doubt you r a football fan or anything..you know really nothing...

sansiro'toilet is dirty:):)...i never laughed before...and if you only understand that from 'agaisnt the modern football' mentality, what could i do...just u can't feel it...leave it...

crowd is shit in italy?? who ********in' cares?? we don't need a fan like you...
and 1500 italian could make better athmosphere than 30.000english...

and why always talkin' yourslef..i did these things, i went all matches, i did all countries and stadiums blah blah blah....who ********in' cares?? you just can't feel the passion..that's a fact...that's why you r always talkin' about yourself...any complex??

''I'd ask you if the ultras of Milan, Inter, Juventus etc are campaigning against the riches their own clubs make, campaigning for lower tv deals, or is it just ticket prices, and a lessening of the willingness to give the ultras free tickets and make money selling merchandise, and stricter policing?''

what a comic post is this...

ULTRAS. One word for such a huge subculture, for a WAY OF LIFE. No matter which country, no matter which religion, no mather which coulour of the skin. Just one one passion. Ultra Passion. Just ONE LOVE. FOOTBALL CLUB. Just one honour. Group honour. Just one strength. Strength to opposed the modern FOOTBALL...

Ultras is an movement that you will never understand...Ultras was born from the our pure football love...we played when we r kid like our lifestyle...

I can never strip my ultra clothes. I will always see the world, not only the sport, by the eyes of the one who sees a football match from the worst place of the stadium. By the eyes of the one who doesn't need any comfort in following his team for thousands of miles. So, I am an ultras.
Are those the supporters? Dentists and doctors in biology with a salary of over 5 000 euro. What do they understand out of words like "faith", "honor", "passion". These characters are just sad results of a system based on economy. They buy adidas scarves, shirt with official bitches like Figo,Vieri, Beckham etc.The mercantilism has touched every cell of the football phenomenon. Look for example at the football balls. They have became something horrible. Its like they are from those bad films with aliens. They are silver or bronze, with weird designs. Like everything is played on Playstation not on a real grass for real men.
Professional football! What does this actually mean? The official transformation of a passion in mercantilism.. In MONEY.

About FIFA and UEFA what's there more to say? It's clear that they want an American model in sports. Inside the arena, peace and hot-dog, outside armed gangs of drug-addicts and mad men. Of course, it would be too much to ask the "kind gentlemen" to think on the long way, about the social aspect that results from their hunger for money. Money, as much as possible, unworked and as fast as possible...

so...i am Against the modern football and you...

and i want to post a letter here....a roma ultra sent to lazio ultra who killed by police...

Every ultra is different. There are those who only active with a group and those who make up a group for themselves. Ultras are all different but they are all united by their love for their own team, their determination to endure for over 90 minutes on their feet despite the rain and the cold, they are united by the warming effect of a chant sung out at the top of their voices. They are united by the security of the friend who sleeps at their side on the train taking you home from an away game, by the swaggering walk through a rival city, by the joy of setting off on an away trip and the tiredness of the return home. They are united by that shared sandwich after hours of hunger, by that cigarette offered on the train and repaid in the stand, by that argument about the left winger on the bench shared in the gloom of a night train. They are united by a mentality. The things which unite us simultaneously divide us from the outside world, they separate us from worried parents, scandalised uncles, frightened classmates or disgusted teachers. Ultras are the exception to the rules, the unexpected which surprises you, the surprise which wipes the smile from your face when you thought you'd got away with it. Ultras are also the arm which pulls you up onto the truck before they shut the doors. Ultras are all this and more, many more emotions which can't be put into words...

Gabriele Sandri...rest in peace...

sorry mate, we are football not you...and im done here...

Football is only for you and me...not for ********in' industry !!!

[RichardL]

omfg...i never talk with a person who don't know anything...do you know the problem-fans in germany?? or rude boys?? or the unity?? bultras?? Commando Giessen??etc....no violence?? i don't argue with you about that because i really doubt you r a football fan or anything..you know really nothing...

Germany doesn't have the fans violence problem italy has. It has problems, as does England remarkably enough, but it's not like Italy.


sansiro'toilet is dirty:):)...i never laughed before...and if you only understand that from 'agaisnt the modern football' mentality, what could i do...just u can't feel it...leave it...

again, what is it that scares you about grounds not being ************? You are so wrapped up in "nothing must change" that you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A lot has changed in England, but that doesn't mean everything is worse.

So again I ask, why would you not want German style grounds in Italy rather than what you have now?


crowd is shit in italy?? who ********in' cares?? we don't need a fan like you...
and 1500 italian could make better athmosphere than 30.000english...

good luck with that. With terracing, the atmosphere in English grounds would be good again. The problem now is that the people who sing are spread around the place - diluted. Give them a terrace and things would be very different.


and why always talkin' yourslef..i did these things, i went all matches, i did all countries and stadiums blah blah blah....who ********in' cares?? you just can't feel the passion..that's a fact...that's why you r always talkin' about yourself...any complex??

I know passion doesn't necessitate violence or putting up with crappy conditions. I know you like to nail yourself to a cross and tell everyone what you put up with, but as good as things were back in the 1980s, and as much fun as I had back then, there's an awful lot I'm glad has gone. I don't think, for example, walking from the station to the ground and having to keep an eye out for a possible ambush really added to the experience of going to a match. I don't think going to grounds to be greeted by a 20ft high fence the obscures the view, having coins and other crap thrown in your direction by the home fans, and getting soaked when it rains are things that should be looked back on with fondness. I do remember the fans singing away loudly, often in spite of events on the pitch rather than because of them, and enjoying winning that battle at least, and going mental on the terraces when a goal goes in in a way that's impossible to replicate in seats.

I speak about myself because I can only offer my own personal perspective and opinion from my viewpoint. You just keep repeating "No to modern football" without ever seeming to be able to express what it is exactly that you personally are saying no to.



ULTRAS. One word for such a huge subculture, for a WAY OF LIFE. No matter which country, no matter which religion, no mather which coulour of the skin. Just one one passion. Ultra Passion. Just ONE LOVE. FOOTBALL CLUB. Just one honour. Group honour. Just one strength. Strength to opposed the modern FOOTBALL...

Ultras is an movement that you will never understand...Ultras was born from the our pure football love...we played when we r kid like our lifestyle...

I can never strip my ultra clothes. I will always see the world, not only the sport, by the eyes of the one who sees a football match from the worst place of the stadium. By the eyes of the one who doesn't need any comfort in following his team for thousands of miles. So, I am an ultras.

Are those the supporters? Dentists and doctors in biology with a salary of over 5 000 euro. What do they understand out of words like "faith", "honor", "passion". These characters are just sad results of a system based on economy. They buy adidas scarves, shirt with official bitches like Figo,Vieri, Beckham etc.The mercantilism has touched every cell of the football phenomenon. Look for example at the football balls. They have became something horrible. Its like they are from those bad films with aliens. They are silver or bronze, with weird designs. Like everything is played on Playstation not on a real grass for real men.
Professional football! What does this actually mean? The official transformation of a passion in mercantilism.. In MONEY.
Like I say. All you can do is quote someone else's words.
http://www.ultrasspirit.com/links/sos.htm



By the way, if you want to look at where modern football really took off, with star players playing for millions and super-rich chairmen using clubs as playthings, look a little closer to home.




so...i am Against the modern football and you...

I don't think you really have a clue what you are against. You have this scary loom-laden vision of this nightmare world called "modern football", but other than wanting to stay in the 1980s, you are incapable of expressing what it is you fear.


Every ultra is different. There are those who only active with a group and those who make up a group for themselves. Ultras are all different but they are all united by their love for their own team, their determination to endure for over 90 minutes on their feet despite the rain and the cold, they are united by the warming effect of a chant sung out at the top of their voices. They are united by the security of the friend who sleeps at their side on the train taking you home from an away game, by the swaggering walk through a rival city, by the joy of setting off on an away trip and the tiredness of the return home. They are united by that shared sandwich after hours of hunger, by that cigarette offered on the train and repaid in the stand, by that argument about the left winger on the bench shared in the gloom of a night train. They are united by a mentality. The things which unite us simultaneously divide us from the outside world, they separate us from worried parents, scandalised uncles, frightened classmates or disgusted teachers. Ultras are the exception to the rules, the unexpected which surprises you, the surprise which wipes the smile from your face when you thought you'd got away with it. Ultras are also the arm which pulls you up onto the truck before they shut the doors. Ultras are all this and more, many more emotions which can't be put into words...

yes, that's exactly what every away fan in England knows about, although perhaps more in cars these days as trains cost a fortune now. The only real difference is that we don't tend to have to put up with the crappy stadiums any more, and that really isn't a bad thing. Even in all-seater stadiums, the away fans tend to sing pretty loudly. They tend to stand too, often for the entire game. You seem convinced ultras are the only people who have experienced what that guy (again, somebody else - you could say anything yourself) has experienced - the only people who live and breathe their football club 24 hours a day, the only people who have forged bonds through travelling across the country together, the only people who know what it's like to do such things.

You are wrong.

Away fans in England, even now, know all that. You seem convinced the lack of ultras groups in England means all fans are middle class passionless prawn-sandwich munchers who go to the odd game now and then because it's a fashionable thing to do. The truth is we've never had ultras, and we didn't have them because we didn't need them. We could generate a great atmosphere without some guy having to stand at the front with a megaphone coordinating it all.


Football is only for you and me...not for ********in' industry !!!
I agree. I hate the effects of tv and the premier league with a passion. I can't stand the way ticket prices rise and rise to absurd levels in this country. I've no interest at all in the champions league. I don't even watch the premiership. I think the decision to increase the EURO to 24 teams is dreadful and purely about money. I hate everything about the modern game which is stratifying the game into almost unbridgeable tiers of haves and have-nots.

I am, on the other hand, able to grasp that just because something is a development of the modern era, that doesn't mean it is inherently evil.

Improved grounds are not a bad thing. Really, they aren't.

The extra media coverage means I can actually follow football outside the top division. It gets far more coverage than it ever did back in the old days.

Less crowd trouble really is good thing. Hooligans would have killed the game in England, and every "fair weather" fan scared off by crowd trouble (who probably be dismissed by you as the sort not wanted at games anyway) is one less fan who can bring his kids along to games and get them hooked on their local team, rather than getting hooked on watching a "big club" on tv instead.

[siyam]

Germany doesn't have the fans violence problem italy has. It has problems, as does England remarkably enough, but it's not like Italy.

off course..and you can't see more violence in italy more than balkan...it's depends culture...but sayiN' no trouble in germany is ignorant comment.


So again I ask, why would you not want German style grounds in Italy rather than what you have now?

did i said that i don't want this?? you only understood this meaning from the 'against the modern football'...i prefer german ground style in italy...

good luck with that. With terracing, the atmosphere in English grounds would be good again. The problem now is that the people who sing are spread around the place - diluted. Give them a terrace and things would be very different.

dream on..it will never happen...



I speak about myself because I can only offer my own personal perspective and opinion from my viewpoint. You just keep repeating "No to modern football" without ever seeming to be able to express what it is exactly that you personally are saying no to.

yes you r a big man...



http://www.ultrasspirit.com/links/sos.htm


thnk you for fix..this speech is in my pc that's why i didn't write..and the beginnin' of the post is not from there..if i want to talk with another person quotes i would do same thing with letter...
and english is not my own language..so i can't write such a good article with another language...if you know italiano then say to me and i will send you a long long long messaege about what ultras stand for...


Away fans in England, even now, know all that. You seem convinced the lack of ultras groups in England means all fans are middle class passionless prawn-sandwich munchers who go to the odd game now and then because it's a fashionable thing to do. The truth is we've never had ultras, and we didn't have them because we didn't need them. We could generate a great atmosphere without some guy having to stand at the front with a megaphone coordinating it all.

did i say that england fans don't know that feelin' ?? i respect england 70's and 80's fans more than you...but in our times i don'T...actually i only respect some lower league and non-leauge team'S fans..specailly im followin' fc united of manchester..and in italy and balkan(i know there) ppl respectin' fcum more than any english team...
yes you need ultras mentaty like fcum not ultras...

I agree. I hate the effects of tv and the premier league with a passion. I can't stand the way ticket prices rise and rise to absurd levels in this country. I've no interest at all in the champions league. I don't even watch the premiership. I think the decision to increase the EURO to 24 teams is dreadful and purely about money. I hate everything about the modern game which is stratifying the game into almost unbridgeable tiers of haves and have-nots.

I am, on the other hand, able to grasp that just because something is a development of the modern era, that doesn't mean it is inherently evil.

Improved grounds are not a bad thing. Really, they aren't.

The extra media coverage means I can actually follow football outside the top division. It gets far more coverage than it ever did back in the old days.

Less crowd trouble really is good thing. Hooligans would have killed the game in England, and every "fair weather" fan scared off by crowd trouble (who probably be dismissed by you as the sort not wanted at games anyway) is one less fan who can bring his kids along to games and get them hooked on their local team, rather than getting hooked on watching a "big club" on tv instead.

you know in italy Football defines our identy, more than religion(not only a word), life itself...you can't change the traditions...you can't change the meaning' of football...you can't take purity from football...
and again against the modern football is not against the improve the ground...
but buildin' new grounds and callin' them emirates??? is that what you want?? im pretty sure you will accept if manchester united change the name as a manchester bears or giants or galaxy...maybe you can't see the reality but england premier league will be like nfl in 5 years...
and i prefer the play football or watchin' kid's playin' football in th streets instead of watchin' chealsea-manchester on the tv..
this is our different think...

[RichardL]

off course..and you can't see more violence in italy more than balkan...it's depends culture...but sayiN' no trouble in germany is ignorant comment.
Indeed. And I didn't make it.


did i said that i don't want this?? you only understood this meaning from the 'against the modern football'...i prefer german ground style in italy...
so what is it you are against, and how does it specifically differ from what I'm against?


dream on..it will never happen...
never say never. The very point was raised by one of the country's main political parties in the last week




yes you r a big man...
being able to state you own opinion isn't a boast. Not being able to, on the other hand...



thnk you for fix..this speech is in my pc that's why i didn't write..and the beginnin' of the post is not from there..if i want to talk with another person quotes i would do same thing with letter...
and english is not my own language..so i can't write such a good article with another language...if you know italiano then say to me and i will send you a long long long messaege about what ultras stand for...

I'm not asking for a speech. You aren't stepping up to receive an oscar. If you are going to go around accusing people, and fans of a nation in general, of being the kind of fan you despise, you should at very least be able to say what those people do (with some degree of evidence to back it up) that you dislike.



did i say that england fans don't know that feelin' ?? i respect england 70's and 80's fans more than you...actually i only respect some lower league and non-leauge team'S fans
I was a fan in the 80s, supporting a lower division team. Do you think Reading are premiership regulars or something?


but in our times i don'T.....specailly im followin' fc united of manchester..and in italy and balkan(i know there) ppl respectin' fcum more than any english team...
yes you need ultras mentaty like fcum not ultras...

why respect them? Why not respect the fans of the teams they play, who support their clubs at that level knowing they'll never get a sniff of the big time, ever?



and again against the modern football is not against the improve the ground...
but buildin' new grounds and callin' them emirates??? is that what you want??

did I ever say it was? You can build a new ground without having to have a corporate sponsor

im pretty sure you will accept if manchester united change the name as a manchester bears or giants or galaxy...

and why are you "sure" of that? Simply because you've decided in your mind what all English fans are like, and you don't want inconvenient things like the truth getting in the way of your prejudice. Your view of what being an ultra is about is pretty much exactly what being a committed support in England is about (but with less of a tolerance of crowd violence, and without the orchestrated support at games) but you seem to have some kind of chip on your shoulder about English football and English fans and refuse to accept it.


maybe you can't see the reality but england premier league will be like nfl in 5 years...
yeah, I said I hate the effects tv money is having on the game for completely unrelated reasons.


and i prefer the play football or watchin' kid's playin' football in th streets instead of watchin' chealsea-manchester on the tv..
this is our different think...
and where I said that I don't watch the premiership, again in the very bit of text you quoted that when writing the reply above, that was obviously where I was stating a preference for watching the premiership.

I bet you happily tune in for the big Italian games though, despite those clubs often being media and corporate whores to nearly the same degree.

[RichardL]

and about german thing...do you really know what you r talkin' about?? do you know the german ultras?? even in amateur league...so before you talk just search...and do you know in all german stadium there is a section is non-seater for only ultras and supporters group...
and by the way, that is complete crap. Yes there are terraces, which is specifically why I mentioned German stadiums, but they are not "only for ultras and supporters groups". Absolutely anyone can get a ticket for them. Another one of the positive benefits of "modern football" is the ability to but tickets for games on the internet, and find the ticket site for any German club and you will be able to purchase terrace tickets, for any section of terracing.

No doubt you feel buying tickets on the internet is bad, and all fans should be made to show they are real fans by camping out overnight to ensure they get tickets rather than having them go to season ticket holders and middle class internet users.

The problem is you are reading stuff like that and assuming I'm saying with a broad brush that all modern football is good. It's a bit like when terracing debates come up on English boards, some that know no different are against it, saying they wouldn't want a return to the awful conditions of the past. Or on here, when you get fans moaning that MLS atmosphere doesn't match that in Europe, you get fans saying they'd rather have MLS atmosphere rather than fighting and racism. It's as if some people think everything has to be entirely one way or entirely another. Old football has bad points, just as modern football has good ones. The objective should be to try and have the good points of both, not to try and polarise everything into choosing one or the other.

Look, you come across as a young lad who cares passionately about this stuff, which is good in many respects, but like many "angry young men" you don't sound like you've really thought about it too deeply. When I was about 21 I fancied myself as a budding Nick Hornby and attempted to write something similar from a lover division fan's perspective (prompted mainly by a comment by the Daily Mirror's main football writer moaning about fans trying to save Barnet from going bust (yes, moaning about it) saying that Barnet fans were just be lazy as they could get on the tube and go and watch Arsenal instead). It was full of rambling impassioned speeches about the state of the game, and the nightmare of all-seater stadiums, and looking back at it, it was clear that my hot-headness, coupled with that 100% certainly people of that age tend to have over their opinions, meant that I couldn't see that I was coming across as a bit of a cock.


I won't join the dots for you, but if you take your view that seemingly only ultras create atmosphere and only ultras know what being a fan is about, and that England has no ultras and does have problems on the atmosphere front, and mix in a degree of anti-English prejudice in general, and your liking for a bit of a rant then.....well, as I said, I won't join the dots for you.

[AFCA]

The San Siro is big, for example, but it's a toilet, dirty, crumbling away with all the charm of a pissed-in tower block lift. It could and should be so much better. The home fans should have a proper terrace rather than having to stand on faded plastic seats, and those that want to sit should be able to do so without having to bring somethig to sit on to stop their trousers getting covered in 18 years of accumulated grime.



I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. When it comes to European (away) games, there's not much that can beat the first tier behind the goal of San Siro. The stadium, the atmosphere and enough room to walk around the end make for one of the best settings I've ever enjoyed at games.

[RichardL]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. When it comes to European (away) games, there's not much that can beat the first tier behind the goal of San Siro. The stadium, the atmosphere and enough room to walk around the end make for one of the best settings I've ever enjoyed at games.
The atmosphere is great. I really enjoyed the game I saw there. My point was that it could be a lot better. The middle and lower tiers should be a proper terrace. The seats should be proper seats. It's probably among the best in Italy, but it's kind of neither fish nor fowl when it comes to what it provides spectators. Nobody in their right mind would choose to have backless seats bolted directed onto their main "terrace" and nobody would choose to sit on a cheap backless seat that thousands of dirty shoes have stood on in the past.

Committed supporters don't stop going because of poor conditions, and people don't tend to go to games because the concourse is nice, but it's a strage sort to not want things better. As the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", and that could apply to a fair few revelopments of stadiums, but I think a lot of that is down to poor and unimaginative design, too much focus on "main stand" facilities, a lack of terracing and an inability to learn from the mistakes other clubs have made.

Although a lot of fans get a little misty-eyed when thinking of "the old place" where they grew up supporting their club, to say that every ground was better 20 years ago is just wrong, just as not everything "modern" is bad.

[johan neeskens]

Many supporterclubs from about 20 countries in Europe signed up to support the Eurostand which is a protest campaign against what modern football has become for the hardcore supporter who attends games. Among the subjects were:

- Allow standing sections
- Reduce ticket prices
- Stop selling names of stadiums and clubs

More about this here:

http://www.eurostand08.com/en/info

Here in Norway I think 12 top division clubs showed some kind of support for the campaign by displaying huge banners and keeping completely quiet for the first 15 minutes of the matches, then suddenly outburst in a huge roar at the 15 minute mark to end the protest. At least we did at my club Fredrikstad in the match against Rosenborg the other week.

How did it go elsewhere around Europe? Any buzz at all in the media?

I hadn't even heard about this but I support it wholeheartedly.

[johan neeskens]

Syam: I'm a fan of a club that was part of the beginning of the ultras movement in the Netherlands and indeed was one of the first ultra associations in the NL (Twente's vak p). I too often reminisce about our old, cold, run down stadium. I too worry that money is killing off passion in football. But I also admit that things are now much better for Twente fans than in the old days. We've got our own home inside our new, modern stadium, get priority tickets for all games, and the club facilitates even our banner making. The atmosphere inside the stadium is still alive and kicking and the new generation of fans is as passionate as the older generations. And as you may be aware of, the Dutch league is now attracting bigger crowds than the Italian league while the supporters associations have become increasingly active. So while I don't like the commercialisation of football, there are parts of the modernisation process that have benefitted me as a season ticket holder and my club and indeed league in general. Dutch football is completely insignificant to the international television audience and the big money spinners in the investors community but Dutch people themselves have fallen back in love with their domestic league. So I think what you're complaining about might be at least partly to blame on how the Italian league specifically is managed.

[mattteo]

Italian attendance figures are higher than those for Holland (23000+ and 18000+ respectively).

[siyam]

@RichardL, look mate, maybe you are thinkin' that i'm against the all english football supporters but im not...i remember the semi final match at 90' world cup..i was 13 and big gazza fan...i did beg my dad to go that match....and i witnessed gazza'S pure passion...when he got a yellow and realized that he won't play at the final if they win..he cried like we cried when we r kids...i remember that i let my teardrops fall like gazza...and i witnessed that england fanS' passion and royality...but in our times im seein' only media muppet like beckham or lampard etc...they changed and fans r cahngin' too...how could i know?? because im a scuba diving instructor and im talkin' and meetin' all the time with english ppl...they r changin' too....they not talkin' about football with passion...they forgot the football's soul...and belive me im the one who really sorry for that condition...england casulas-firms-football chants-football culture was our material...we copied and developed and made our style and better....

and @johan neeskens, i don't know about holland league too much so i can't say anything but i really respect holland fans ( not national teams clowns)...
i think holland will never lose the soul and meanin' of the football...

about italy thing...both of you have too understand that maybe attadence not so high, maybe our stadiums r bad, maybe in italy we have violence (and for me violence is part of football ) but belive me no one in italy lost the football soul and fever...when you talk with italian about football u can realize that how he is getting exited and talk with passion...you would think that his heart skip a beat...still street's football culture in here, still amateur spirit...and in italy the fans r the real owners of the football clubs not anyone...if the fans against something, that thing will never happen...
btw, you can see the football players in the ultras section...
can you all think that in england beckham goes to stefford end and meet and talk with ppl and support the team....don't make me laugh...

[RichardL]

.but in our times im seein' only media muppet like beckham or lampard etc...they changed and fans r cahngin' too...how could i know?? because im a scuba diving instructor and im talkin' and meetin' all the time with english ppl...they r changin' too....they not talkin' about football with passion...they forgot the football's soul...and belive me im the one who really sorry for that condition...england casulas-firms-football chants-football culture was our material...we copied and developed and made our style and better....

certainly fan culture has changed, but that's a lot more down to gaining the new kind of armchair fan who knows nothing but watching football from his sofa, yet will consider himself a "hard-core" fan. Fans are also a lot more demanding, or more exact, a lot less tolerant of any failure. The kind of knee-jerk "sack the manager" mentality that used to be reserved for England managers now seems to apply to club managers too as sports reporters try the create a story out of nothing. I think because of that, the idea of backing the team, even through the thin times, has died a little.

There really was never any clear link between the "casuals" and atmosphere at grounds. Sure they may be more likely to sing than someone 20 years older, but they weren't instrumental in any way in getting the singing going. They were about fighting, not supporting the team. As a QPR supporting mate of mine (who did like a bit of a scrap, but not at the football) once said about the time he get chatting to one of QPR's casuals on the train to Loftus Road, after chatting to him for a bit he added with all the disappointment he could muster "you're not of those who goes to matches for the football are you?"

When people moan now, they moan about how much older fans are than in the past. They moan they are surrounded by guys in their 40s now, but it used to be guys in their teens and 20s when they were youngers. The thing is, in the past, the different age groups would typically be in different parts of the ground. Now everyone is mixed together. Even in the 80s, you only really ever had one part of the ground that would sing. If terraces came back, you'd see the different types of fan separate again.


maybe in italy we have violence (and for me violence is part of football )

why? Take the exampe of Roma fans, whose speciality appears to be to stab people in the arse when they aren't looking. What's noble about that? What great tradition are they upholding, and how would the game suffer as a whole if they stopped doing it?

[siyam]

why? Take the exampe of Roma fans, whose speciality appears to be to stab people in the arse when they aren't looking. What's noble about that? What great tradition are they upholding, and how would the game suffer as a whole if they stopped doing it?

well, i never accept the stab people...but like i said it depends culture... getting knife is so easy and in mediterrian ppl stab ppl in real life...and Football express life...there is no noble side...for example when i was in aegean i talked with turks and greeks...greeks always moan about that turks uses knife...and i asked the turks ultras..why?? and they said, the fight keep goes till die if two turks fight..so, sometimes knifes start talkin'...or in russia they have their own rules about fight...no gun no knife etc...just fist to fist..and if anyone is lyin' on the floor no one beat them...in france again you can see the stab thing...or in spain...but u never see in sweden or denmark or norway...if you ask me that i never accept any hooliganism in football...i mean i never accept the ppl who r lookin' zone for the fight...they r idiots.

i will tell you a story about ultras...fossa dei leoni...lm sure you know the group..they were the longest ultras group...
Fossa dei leoni stole the banner of vikin' juve...but they could not prove that...after that condition, vikin' juve (they only goes the away matches of juventus)did want ot revenge and went to san siro, and stole the milan banner and then they published in internet...this is the video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgI7QJN1KTU&feature=related
then fossa dei leoni declarated that they withdrew from the tribunes...
isn't it honorable and respectable.??..

you can't judge the ultras or italians for stabbin' thing...ultras have own rules and own menatlity...if there is only one country that never lose the Football culture..this country is italy...