Encroachment on PK?

[One_Ahead]

No one talking about Noel Kenney and the DCU-KCW match last weekend?

Rumour has it that Kenney is benched for the rest of the MLS season.

[MassachusettsRef]

Kenny has failed his second assessment and won't see MLS action for the rest of the year. That comes from a press release on www.mlsnet.com

However, you are mistaken if you believe that one call accounts for that failure. Assessments are much more complex than that. I didn't see the match, but I'll guess that Kenny failed for other reasons. Remember, however wrong Kenny's call on the PK may have been in a 'spirit' sense, it was still technically correct, so he certainly couldn't fail solely on that point. To that end, the title of the thread should probably be changed.

Anyway, not something that I'd get into on the other threads (being talked about in DC forum and MLS N&A) but I feel really bad for Kenny with everything that happened to him last year and all. From the press release, it implies that being removed from the MLS pool was partly his decision, so maybe this is just something he wants at this point in his life. Regardless, I hope he makes a successful comeback next year, he certainly deserves something to go right for him.

[ignatz]

The main knock we DCU fans had was lack of consistency. There were defending players in the box on the missed kicks. That being said, a lot of KC fans claim that the last penalty, on Talley, was a bad call (I was too far away to see, but note that few DCU fans on these boards defend the call). It might be that Kenny was trying to "make up" for calling the PK in the first place. If so, he appears to have made the situation worse.

[jc508]

I wish I could see that assessment and why he failed.

While I acknowledge that the encroachment call is seldom called, should the referee just continue to let it go. I don't know how bad the encroachment was, but if it were terribly obvious, I would think that maybe it should be called.

Maybe the powers at FIFA will change the law next year to allow encroachment by players and keepers ONLY IF it does not effect play. That seems to be the law that the players want enforced NOW.

Just my opinion.

[Alberto]

Originally posted by jc508
I wish I could see that assessment and why he failed.

While I acknowledge that the encroachment call is seldom called, should the referee just continue to let it go. I don't know how bad the encroachment was, but if it were terribly obvious, I would think that maybe it should be called.

Maybe the powers at FIFA will change the law next year to allow encroachment by players and keepers ONLY IF it does not effect play. That seems to be the law that the players want enforced NOW.

Just my opinion.

The law should not change. Just wait and see what happens if you allow encroachment. Talk about making the referees job more difficult. It will be a fire drill.

[nsa]

Not having seen the game I have no idea whether this was one step or five into the PA.

That said, I have more things to worry about than who's in early on a made shot. Ditto for encroachment by the defending team on a saved PK. Unless there are other things going on (hootin' and hollerin' and such), I let it be.

The trouble comes on the rebounds so a mental note needs to be made of who enters first.

Law 18: Common sense.

If it does not effect the immediate play, file it away.

[billf]

Originally posted by jc508
I wish I could see that assessment and why he failed.

While I acknowledge that the encroachment call is seldom called, should the referee just continue to let it go. I don't know how bad the encroachment was, but if it were terribly obvious, I would think that maybe it should be called.

Maybe the powers at FIFA will change the law next year to allow encroachment by players and keepers ONLY IF it does not effect play. That seems to be the law that the players want enforced NOW.

Just my opinion.

Essentially, these are ths instuctions the USSF gives referees. Example, Team A has a pk and Team B encroaches. If the kick is converted, the goal shall stand. If the kick misses or the keeper saves it, then the kick is retaken. Conversely, should the kicking team encroach and kick be converted, it should be retaken.

That said, its not always easy to watch for everything on a pk, so its likely that only very obvious encroachment is called.

I really feel bad for Kenny. I'm sure he knew he had a bad game, but now you have all of the DC fans thinking they helped get him fired. I find it sad that fans need to personally attack a man that can't defend himself based on their obviously biased view of a game. I'll admit bias on the part off the ref team because I don't have a strong team affiliation in MLS, but when I watch the US I'm at least rational about mistakes that I think the referee made.

MassRef, what sorts of things will cause you to fail a pro assessment? Are they mainly technical, or are there judgements that can be held against you? I know that MLS uses video in assessment, so are indivdual judgements questioned?

[Claymore]

I wouldn't worry too much about the fans. Prior to the WC, DC fans would swear to you that Brian Hall was the living embodiment of Evil.

[deep-throat]

Originally posted by billf

MassRef, what sorts of things will cause you to fail a pro assessment? Are they mainly technical, or are there judgements that can be held against you? I know that MLS uses video in assessment, so are indivdual judgements questioned?

Bill, if you dont mind I'll try and answer this one - MassachussetsRef will probably help out later. At the higher levels, a failing assessment will generally not be for "technical" reasons, largely because a top referee knows the LOTG so well that to make a glaring technical mistake would be unlikely. At the Pro level, they are looking for the crew to do a game in a consistent, predicatable fashion, and if that is done then they will be fine - even if they make the odd mistake. individual incidents will be "judged" but their relevance to an assessment is only important if the "mistake" has a significant impact on the game, such as missing a clear "handball" in the penalty area, or failing to send a player off for an obvious red card. FYI, the actual score on an assessment that you need in order to pass an assessment is based on the referees own personal grade. For instance, a grade 7 ref would only need a score of 70 to pass, but a National ref would need a score of 80. So, while a top referee like Noel Kenny "failed" his assessment on this game, he possibly still scored in the high 70s which would be a very good (passing) score for the majority of referees, but a failure for a National.

[GlennAA11]

I was at the game in question. I'd say at the time of the kick the players in the area too early were probably in by 2 or 3 steps. And that happened on all 3 PK attempts. I think it's one of those things that had no negative effect on the play in any event, which is why the call was so baffling. For what it's worth, he did consult with the AR first. I did not see the AR make any sort of signal, but it's possible he brought the "encroachment" to Kenny's attention.

Of course in the World Cup we saw a totally egregious case of encroachment in the Sweden-Argentina game in which the encroaching player (Crespo?) scored on the rebound of the saved PK. In that case the referee allowed the goal even though the encroaching player was even with the penalty spot when the kick was taken. If ever there was a case for that call to be made, that was it. However, in the DC-KC game the players in the area were not nearly so bad.

I think the botching of that PK situation was probably at the top of the list of Kenny's mistakes in that game. But I believe there were several others including the complete lack of sanctions to Preki after he eblowed Convey in the throat in an apparent retaliation. The 4th official stepped onto the field to calm that situation and at the next stoppage called out to Kenny to relate what had occurred. It happened behind the referee's back but right at the midfield line about 5 yards in front of the 4th official. We were all astounded that even after consulting with the 4th he did nothing about the play. I don't even recall a verbal warning, at least not a showy one anyway. There was also a play early in that match that appeared to be a clear PK when Quintanilla was dragged down in the box while preparing to play a cross that was coming pretty much right to him. Don't know how both the referee and the AR missed that one. And he allowed KC to waste time the entire match with only a few verbal warnings and no other sanctions.

In general there didn't seem to be much consistency in his calls and he seemed a bit hesitant a great deal of the time.

I guess one reason the players may actually like him is because he lets them yell at him with impunity for the most part. I think it would be better though if he just called things more consistently and they he wouldn't have to deal with so much dissent. But I think that MLS must expect and want the referees to do certain things that don't necessarily make sense to the fans. I guess there's a difference between soccer as entertainment and soccer as a kids game that most of us see from on the field.