A question to those that don't follow SerieA

[FNU]

I'm sure most of you, or at least some of you, have heard all about the Napoli supporters wrecking the train and all that other exaggerated crap the media conjured up. Then, the mighty NORTHER ITALIAN "Sports Judge" gave us a stadium ban for two sections (Curve A and B, mostly occupied by the working class fan) for 4 games(it was reduced to 3 today). The rule used was a rule that only applies to the home team, in this case, Roma since we were traveling. Anyways, our club seems to be penalized more than any other club in Italy...if you understand Italian culture, you'll know the North and South don't get along. Most of the power is in the North btw, and they tend to be racist towards the South. Another reason why football in Italy is dying.

So my question or questions: If your clubs fans cause trouble AWAY from home, on the way to the away game, and maybe some mischief in the host's stadium, SHOULD YOUR CLUB BE RESPONSIBLE? Remember, this is all out of your club's power, and if anything, the host club's stewards and police should control anything going on in the host's stadium.

[Caesar]

Certainly. Supporting the club is the one thing that the troublemakers have in common, and presumably care about, therefore it makes sense to implement the consequences on that club. Additionally, regardless of the location of misbehaviour, the club is to an extent capable of moulding the culture of their support base.

That's not to say that the host club doesn't bear responsibility for ensuring adequate security, handling of fans, etc. However the host club isn't there to babysit visiting fans, and the visiting club shouldn't be able to wash its hands of all responsibility for its travelling support.

Take the (extreme) example of the English ban from Europe. That was a classic example of the consequences of the behaviour of visiting fans being visited on the travelling clubs. Now, we can argue all day about the merits of that particular decision, but the reality is that when the clubs were penalised for it, they (along with other English stakeholders) made some very successful progress in resolving the issues. It was far more successful at getting to the heart of the problem than leaving it up to the individual host cities to take care of it each time the English were in town.

Although they may not have direct control over their travelling support, the reality is that clubs do have some significant power to change the behaviour and culture of them.

[Duck Manson]

I'm more then willing to take a five year ban from Europe to get our stadia and fans behaviour up to the Prem League level. In Italy fans are treated like animals and put in a cage. That's the exact opposite of what should be done. Plus in Italy they're not allowed to ban people from going to games like they are in England. Which of course is completely rediculous. At Meazza a Inter fan brought in a moped (where the hell were security?) to the second tier and threw it down onto the fans on the first tier. That guy is probably still going to games. He should be banned for life. People who cause problems in Italy have no fear of consequences because there are none, except for fines (which they don't care about since they won't pay anyway). The whole football system needs to change. The teams have to be responsible for security, like they are in England, and they should be allowed to take any measure nesessary to make live football safe for everyone. Now police are in charge and they don't give a f**k about football fans.

[96Squig]

I agree withe the others. Even though the home club has responsibility, the visiting club has also try to regulate their own fans. If only the home club gets punished, away fans will feel like they can do whatever the heck they want to.

[mattteo]

I'm more then willing to take a five year ban from Europe to get our stadia and fans behaviour up to the Prem League level. In Italy fans are treated like animals and put in a cage. That's the exact opposite of what should be done. []Plus in Italy they're not allowed to ban people from going to games like they are in England. Which of course is completely rediculous. At Meazza a Inter fan brought in a moped (where the hell were security?) to the second tier and threw it down onto the fans on the first tier. That guy is probably still going to games. He should be banned for life. People who cause problems in Italy have no fear of consequences because there are none, except for fines (which they don't care about since they won't pay anyway). The whole football system needs to change. The teams have to be responsible for security, like they are in England, and they should be allowed to take any measure nesessary to make live football safe for everyone. Now police are in charge and they don't give a f**k about football fans.

What the ******** are you talking about??

Ever heard of DASPO??

And no, thanks, in Italy not many tifosi (not couch plastics from America) want to head the English way...sanitized stadiums for affluent families of "consumers" :rolleyes:.

Football is people's sport and must remain as such.

[mattteo]

I'm sure most of you, or at least some of you, have heard all about the Napoli supporters wrecking the train and all that other exaggerated crap the media conjured up. Then, the mighty NORTHER ITALIAN "Sports Judge" gave us a stadium ban for two sections (Curve A and B, mostly occupied by the working class fan) for 4 games(it was reduced to 3 today). The rule used was a rule that only applies to the home team, in this case, Roma since we were traveling. Anyways, our club seems to be penalized more than any other club in Italy...if you understand Italian culture, you'll know the North and South don't get along. Most of the power is in the North btw, and they tend to be racist towards the South. Another reason why football in Italy is dying.

So my question or questions: If your clubs fans cause trouble AWAY from home, on the way to the away game, and maybe some mischief in the host's stadium, SHOULD YOUR CLUB BE RESPONSIBLE? Remember, this is all out of your club's power, and if anything, the host club's stewards and police should control anything going on in the host's stadium.

The alleged North/South rivalry has nothing to do with the judge's decision, come on.

The police is at fault for what happened on Sunday, it was probably pre-arranged (your beloved Berlusconi has to hide his complete failure of a government's shortcomings in some ways, afterall...first it was the illegals, now the ultras, next the mean "unions"....a plot we've already witnessed), but the policemen were from either Naples or Rome.....and I think Napoli got a soft treatment, taking into account what the law says...they could have shut the entire San Paolo for 6 months.

[cccssss]

And no, thanks, in Italy not many tifosi (not couch plastics from America) want to head the English way...sanitized stadiums for affluent families of "consumers" :rolleyes:.

Football is people's sport and must remain as such.

100% agree.

[Duck Manson]

What the ******** are you talking about??

Ever heard of DASPO??

And no, thanks, in Italy not many tifosi (not couch plastics from America) want to head the English way...sanitized stadiums for affluent families of "consumers" :rolleyes:.

Football is people's sport and must remain as such.I was talking about behaviour. Not people.

[Cirdan]

I think last season there were flares and things thrown on the pitch by Nürnberg fans in Frankfurts stadium, both clubs were fined: Frankfurt because the flares came into the stadium and Nürnberg because their fans behaviour. So, the away fans can be punished here, too, and I believe it's the right thing to do, because if the home clubs would be punished, that really wouldn't be a reason for the away fans to stop. However I'm not sure if the measures are a bit over the top in this case, especially considering that there seems to be organized crime involved in the train incident.


I think a huge problem in Italy is the complete lack of trust between the police and officials on the one side and the Ultras and fans on the other... I mean, it's not like in Germany, the fans and the police are best buds everywhere, but mostly, fan organisations and officials work together against violence, in Italy there seems to be no trust at all, in the view of policemen and ministers all fans are violent criminals that should be imprisoned, to the fans, all policemen are ruffians with no respect for the fan culture who just like to beat up people (in addition, any north-south or city rivalry goes up as soon as possible).

[FNU]

The alleged North/South rivalry has nothing to do with the judge's decision, come on.

The police is at fault for what happened on Sunday, it was probably pre-arranged (your beloved Berlusconi has to hide his complete failure of a government's shortcomings in some ways, afterall...first it was the illegals, now the ultras, next the mean "unions"....a plot we've already witnessed), but the policemen were from either Naples or Rome.....and I think Napoli got a soft treatment, taking into account what the law says...they could have shut the entire San Paolo for 6 months.
Soft treatment? Tell me, what did they do to Atalanta after the rioting in their stadium and forced game stop? How about the Lazio and Roma Ultras rioting in Rome during the same week? :rolleyes: pfffft.

Concerning Napoli, no one was hurt, except for our fans getting beat by the cops for no reason. No one has come forward saying they were hurt by our fans. And of those arrested, 5 in total, 4 were Roma tifosi.

So you say the police are at fault, but they should have penalized us even further?

This is why Italy will always take 2 steps backwards for every one forward. Backwards mentality.

And to those that are using Heysel or Hillsborough as an example, NO ONE WAS INJURED in this case. You can't really compare. Here's a better example, the Rangers fans that went on a riot in Manchester last season during the UEFA cup final...although that wasn't under the Scottish FA's jurisdiction. How about the Spurs fans, I think, that were stabbed outside of Stamford Bridge two years ago? Were Chelsea given a home ban or any sections closed?

Why should the club be held responsible for things out of their control? And this notion of a club being able to control their fans behavior is interesting, but if you mean by pricing out the working class (or those more keen to be "anarchic") then I don't agree. You'll have to explain this further please.

Let's keep this domestic too, UEFA jurisdiction is something else. How about some more responses from Prem., La Liga, Bundesliga, etc. fans and game goers. Thanks for the responses.

[mattteo]

No, no, I didn't mean to say it was right to penalize Napoli...I just said it's not a matter of North/South rivalry and, based on the laws, the decision wasn't the harsest possibile (so no "consipracy").

Btw, I think laws changed even further after the Sandri incident and its aftermath.

And as I told you, this is a new government (heavily right-wing, almost fascist), reactions and attitude towards the ultras are different.

[BocaFan]

And no, thanks, in Italy not many tifosi (not couch plastics from America) want to head the English way...sanitized stadiums for affluent families of "consumers" :rolleyes:.

Football is people's sport and must remain as such.

Agreed! Its difficult to enjoy yourself when in the back of your mind you know you're paying about **€1/minute for the "entertainment". At that rate, even hard-core fans can only afford go to a few matches a season. :rolleyes:

[FNU]

No, no, I didn't mean to say it was right to penalize Napoli...I just said it's not a matter of North/South rivalry and, based on the laws, the decision wasn't the harsest possibile (so no "consipracy").

Btw, I think laws changed even further after the Sandri incident and its aftermath.

And as I told you, this is a new government (heavily right-wing, almost fascist), reactions and attitude towards the ultras are different.
The system in Italy sucks, bottom line. The riots in Rome and Atalanta game were far worse.

[Duck Manson]

Minimum 25 years in jail for any football related violence and banned from games for life. Automatic death sentence if they attack police or athletes. That's how it should be.

[FNU]

http://www.corrieredellosport.it/Fotogallery/Napoli/6908/0/Napoli,%20la%20protesta%20dei%20tifosi%20contro%20la%20chiusura%20delle%20curve

[Matt Clark]

Minimum 25 years in jail for any football related violence and banned from games for life. Automatic death sentence if they attack police or athletes. That's how it should be.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, because it's literally impossible to overstate the significance of this issue. Global terror, economic meltdown, immigration ... random football violence. It's a tight portfolio when you get down to the really big issues!

In fact, how about compulsory sterilisation too? Or perhaps murder the families of anyone found guilty of football-related public misconduct too? You know, as a warning to others. All sounds entirely workable to me, especially given the famed transparency, consistency and efficacy of the Italian legal system.

To answer the original question, yes Napoli should be punished. Why? Simple - turn the question on its head: if not Napoli, who? The obverse of what actually happened is that nothing happens at all and no one faces or deals with responsibility for these actions. Which means such actions continue and the game in Italy continues its slide down the toilet.

And on another point made here: the EPL and Serie A are opposite ends of a long scale. Reducing crime and basic stupidity amongst Italian football fans does not automatically mean a descent into the sort of sterility that undeniably affects some of the Premiership experience today. There are many examples of a middle ground with which anyone should be happy. The Bundesliga, for instance, which on most counts (all those related to more meaningful things than how many of the footballers on your Playstation play there, for instance) probably has the right to call itself the best league in the world.

[FNU]

To answer the original question, yes Napoli should be punished. Why? Simple - turn the question on its head: if not Napoli, who? The obverse of what actually happened is that nothing happens at all and no one faces or deals with responsibility for these actions. Which means such actions continue and the game in Italy continues its slide down the toilet.
For starters, how about those who actually commit the crimes. I'm surprised to see how many of you think the club should suffer for something that doesn't even occur in a football stadium, let alone ANOTHER CLUB'S football stadium...What are the police paid to do??? Watch riots culminate(as the evidence is being flushed out these days, the media exaggerated almost everything that occurred concerning Napoli fans as usual), or stop them?

I think it's enough that our fans are banned from traveling for the rest of the year, as that's clearly a punishment for them only and not our club. As I mentioned, what happen to Chelsea when those Spurs fans were stabbed outside the stadium 2 yrs ago? Then we turn back to Italy: the riots in Rome and the Atalanta Milan game. Eh? :confused:

[Duck Manson]

In fact, how about compulsory sterilisation too? Or perhaps murder the families of anyone found guilty of football-related public misconduct too? I've been for the first part for a long time for crimes like rape, incest. The second part only for terrorists. Maybe they'd think twice if they knew their whole family would be executed immediately. Why would anyone be against this.

[Real Corona]

Minimum 25 years in jail for any football related violence and banned from games for life. Automatic death sentence if they attack police or athletes. That's how it should be.

I think he wanted to talk about UEFA leagues, not the North Korean league.

[Duck Manson]

I think he wanted to talk about UEFA leagues, not the North Korean league.Is there alot of football related violence in Korea? I bet not. Enough said.