Suggestion for new European football set-up

[Duck Manson]

If you think local pride is overrated then I wonder why you think most wars are started.Neeskens takes the debate to new hights. Again.

[96Squig]

It's the only reason that makes sense. If local pride was such a big factor you'd support teams in other sports as well. They're just as local as the football team.

I do, to a certain degree.
However, football being the most popular sport, the best way to support local pride is in supporting Hannover 96.

[Duck Manson]

Sigh. This is precisely why I said that without local pride, football would be just another sport. It's the local pride thing that makes football unique. Well old school football anyway.It's the fact that it's popular with alot of people that makes it special. If not then explain why football is bigger then handball. I'm sure handball teams are just as local to someone as a football team is.

[Duck Manson]

I do, to a certain degree.
However, football being the most popular sport, the best way to support local pride is in supporting Hannover 96.I'm not saying it doesn't matter where a team is from. But it's not the biggest factor. Chances are you will start supporting a team that alot of your friends or family support or a team that's on TV alot, or some player that caught your eye when you were young and it just snowballed. No one starts out with the idea that 'hey I'm going to support a football team and it's that team down the street'. Just doesn't work that way. You don't pick your team. The team picks you.

[johan neeskens]

I'm not saying it doesn't matter where a team is from. But it's not the biggest factor.

Well you would say that wouldn't you, being a septic based in Norway yet supporting Juventus. I would say the opinions of actual match going fans are a tad more relevant than yours in this respect. Tell you what, if we ever have a discussion about why overseas gloryhunters pick a specific team, we'll let you voice your views as the resident expert. Deal?

[RichardL]

I'm not saying it doesn't matter where a team is from. But it's not the biggest factor. Chances are you will start supporting a team that alot of your friends or family support or a team that's on TV alot, or some player that caught your eye when you were young and it just snowballed. No one starts out with the idea that 'hey I'm going to support a football team and it's that team down the street'. Just doesn't work that way. You don't pick your team. The team picks you.

It is true that most fans support the team they first went to see, and for most, they first went to see a match with family or friends. With the large number of local fans, it greatly increases the chances of that first match for any kid being the local team.

In my experience though, when fans do change teams, it usually because they grew up supporting a team they saw on tv as a kid, and got into supporting their local team as they got older, slowing switiching allegiences over the years.

There's just something about supporting your local side that you just don't get following a glamour club on tv. It's just more personal. It's kind of like finding out that having a real girlfriend is rather more satisfying than any stunning porn star on a DVD ever could be.

[Duck Manson]

It is true that most fans support the team they first went to see, and for most, they first went to see a match with family or friends. With the large number of local fans, it greatly increases the chances of that first match for any kid being the local team.Exactly.In my experience though, when fans do change teams, it usually because they grew up supporting a team they saw on tv as a kid, and got into supporting their local team as they got older, slowing switiching allegiences over the years.Exactly. Because everyone around them support that team. It's embarassing for a grownup from Manchester to support Chelsea.There's just something about supporting your local side that you just don't get following a glamour club on tv. It's just more personal. It's kind of like finding out that having a real girlfriend is rather more satisfying than any stunning porn star on a DVD ever could be.Well, that's debatable. €19.99 or half of everything you earn for the rest of your life. That's a no brainer ;)

[schafer]

The point I was trying to make is that what match going fans think doesn't matter as much as what television audiences think. Yes your average match going fan prefers the domestic league, but the international television audience cares more about Chelsea v Barcelona than about Chelsea v Portsmouth. And since television is where the money is, that's where the big clubs will want to grow their business. Unless the EU or UEFA steps in, a superleague will happen anyway - it will develop organically.


Have you ever considered that perhaps it's a bit unfair and simplistic to make such sweeping generalizations and lump all 'international' fans in the same group?

I understand your basic point, but the idea that all international fans by default care more about a match against Barca than a match against Portsmouth is off, IMO, and creating caricatures of all international fans as simply lapping up whatever the marketing executives at UEFA throw at us and having no respect for tradition is a tad insulting. There are fans like that, to be sure, but it's not universal.

I think you'll find, for example, that when fans from overseas to get the opportunity to watch their teams live, they are simply ecstatic to even be there regardless of the opponent.

I personally would rather have Chelsea be successful in the league as opposed to the CL just due to the nature of the competition. I'm not going to pretend that say, the FA cup means as much to me as someone who grew up with it in its most prestigious days, but I can still see what it means to domestic fans and appreciate its importance to some extent. Even if ESPN isn't covering it;).

[johan neeskens]

Have you ever considered that perhaps it's a bit unfair and simplistic to make such sweeping generalizations and lump all 'international' fans in the same group?

I understand your basic point, but the idea that all international fans by default care more about a match against Barca than a match against Portsmouth is off, IMO, and creating caricatures of all international fans as simply lapping up whatever the marketing executives at UEFA throw at us and having no respect for tradition is a tad insulting. There are fans like that, to be sure, but it's not universal.

I think you'll find, for example, that when fans from overseas to get the opportunity to watch their teams live, they are simply ecstatic to even be there regardless of the opponent.

I personally would rather have Chelsea be successful in the league as opposed to the CL just due to the nature of the competition. I'm not going to pretend that say, the FA cup means as much to me as someone who grew up with it in its most prestigious days, but I can still see what it means to domestic fans and appreciate its importance to some extent. Even if ESPN isn't covering it;).

As I pointed out in an earlier post (it might have been deleted) I don't mean to insult overseas fans. I'm just saying that while the different groups of people who like football each have different priorities, it's the needs of the international television audiences that are predominantly met in modern European football. I'm sure there are many exceptions to the rule like you but viewing figures prove that big European games attract more of an interest internationally than run of the mill domestic league games.

I hope that overseas fans can empathise with Europeans who go to see their local team every weekend and who feel sad about how big money threatens to ruin the game they grew up with.

[schafer]

I hope that overseas fans can empathise with Europeans who go to see their local team every weekend and who feel sad about how big money threatens to ruin the game they grew up with.

I would think that any fan of the game who actually understands why it is the traditions and clubs they support from afar exist would empathise with local fans. Obviously that's not the case, unfortunately.

[Duck Manson]

Well you would say that wouldn't you, being a septic based in Norway yet supporting Juventus. I would say the opinions of actual match going fans are a tad more relevant than yours in this respect. Tell you what, if we ever have a discussion about why overseas gloryhunters pick a specific team, we'll let you voice your views as the resident expert. Deal?Firstly, wasn't my choice to move here. I was 10 years old. Secondly, I was born into it. I didn't really pick my team. Thirdly, let's just never discuss anyting. I value your opinion less then you could ever imagine. So please, don't answer my posts again. Ever.

[johan neeskens]

Firstly, wasn't my choice to move here. I was 10 years old. Secondly, I was born into it. I didn't really pick my team. Thirdly, let's just never discuss anyting. I value your opinion less then you could ever imagine. So please, don't answer my posts again. Ever.

Just put me on ignore you dramaqueen.

[zippy85]

Stop attacking people neeskens. there's no need for it.

[Duck Manson]

Could someone please tell me how I ignore this dumb ********?

[johan neeskens]

Stop attacking people neeskens. there's no need for it.

That actually cracked me up Zippy. You're the queen of irony!

[goliath74]

I agree, footballers have a short career and could get a career ending injury at anytime, people should not criticise them for trying to earn as much money as possible whilst they can.

It could, however, be argued (and has successfully been at EU) that football (and sports in general) are not comparable to any other kinds of employment. And not only for the salaries that professional footballer might command. It can also be reasoned that football clubs are not in many ways like corporations. There are no "fan clubs" for IBM, Siemens, Mercedes, etc. Football clubs are a more vital part of the society that belong (even if only in spirit) to all of us. Football clubs DIRECTLY benefit all their supporters and not just shareholders, players, and owners.

If someone should insist that football clubs are no more than businesses - fine, I pay the money to see them, buy their merchandise, SO I SHOULD EXPECT TO SEE THE PRODUCT WORTH MY MONEY. If the top few clubs buy off all the players - what happens to the product I pay for?

If my new refrigerator does not operator as stated, I can exchange it for one that works or get my money back. My love for my club can not be exchanged or returned.

[Kebbie Gazauzkas]

I like @Johan Neeskens' system, though I do think that "Cinderella" stories are still possible. I am pleasantly surprised that a number of newcomers like CFR Cluj, BATE Borisov, and Anorthosis Famagusta appear to be competitive (but with the exception of the Belarussians, such teams have very few local players).

However, I think that if the 6+5 rule becomes a reality, there would be a narrowing of the gap between traditional powerhouses and clubs from smaller countries.

[BocaFan]

I like @Johan Neeskens' system, though I do think that "Cinderella" stories are still possible. I am pleasantly surprised that a number of newcomers like CFR Cluj, BATE Borisov, and Anorthosis Famagusta appear to be competitive (but with the exception of the Belarussians, such teams have very few local players).


Johan's system might be fun but its not very realistic. About the most dramatic change we can hope for in the next, say 10 years is to have a direct knockout round in the CL before the group-stage to bring the total # of teams from 32 down to 16 (the losers of that round go to the UEFA Cup). Then have the CL group-stage: 4 groups of 4. This gives you a richer UEFA Cup since only the top 16 teams in Europe will be involved in Champions League. Meanwhile it makes the CL group-stage more appealing. We don't need 6 games to see if Barcelona is better than Basle.

The only strike against this idea in the past was that you run a risk of losing a "super" club like Man Utd, Madrid, etc after only two games. But now that the gap b/w the Elite 8 of Europe and everybody else is ridiculously wide, that risk is virtually non-existent today.

[Kebbie Gazauzkas]

Well put, I have to agree that the creation of such a superleague is not that realistic at this stage..and it's highly doubtful that we could go back to the system of allowing only the champions to compete.
I am generally in agreement with your idea, my only concern is that some of the big guns don't seem to take the UEFA Cup that seriously - e.g. it may be just my opinion, but some of Bayern's displays during the 2007/2008 season were rather underwhelming. I usually find the UEFA games between smaller clubs to be the most intriguing, issues like a lack of motivation to perform are not as likely to arise.

[johan neeskens]

Well put, I have to agree that the creation of such a superleague is not that realistic at this stage..and it's highly doubtful that we could go back to the system of allowing only the champions to compete.
I am generally in agreement with your idea, my only concern is that some of the big guns don't seem to take the UEFA Cup that seriously - e.g. it may be just my opinion, but some of Bayern's displays during the 2007/2008 season were rather underwhelming. I usually find the UEFA games between smaller clubs to be the most intriguing, issues like a lack of motivation to perform are not as likely to arise.

Last night again proved how much more exciting the UEFA cup is. The games are far more evenly balanced, even at this early stage, and the fans typically aren't as cynical as big club fans. Who cares if the football isn't always top quality - that's something the media concern themselves with, not the fans.