Younger brother has finally moved past big sister?

[Real Ray]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/124083p-111370c.html

So the world has caught up with the pony-tailed wonders, finally. And so have the American men. Four years ago, the women won a joyous World Cup title to make soccer fans forget about the brutal, undignified unraveling of the men's team at France '98.

Now, after the women lost with home-field advantage, somebody is bound to mutter a politically incorrect truth: The U.S. men have surpassed the women. The men's program in recent years has produced more young standouts, like Landon Donovan, DaMarcus Beasley, Tim Howard and even 14-year-old Freddy Adu. Reaching the quarterfinals of the World Cup in Japan/Korea '02 was certainly a greater achievement for the men than a semifinal defeat at home for the women.

[bungadiri]

Yes definitely let's give the USMNT their due, but this...
politically incorrect truth

is *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#. I nominate "politically (in)correct" as the most overused phrase in the history of lame sports writing.

[Dr. Wankler]

Originally posted by bungadiri
is *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#. I nominate "politically (in)correct" as the most overused phrase in the history of lame sports writing.

Yeah, but it's great for allowing otherwise dull conformists to pretend they're brave, insightful truthseekers.

[Foosinho]

The writing was on the wall for the women a long time ago. It was just a matter of time before this day came.

I agree that Heinrichs wasn't a very good coach. Why was Lilly still out there? Fawcett? Foudy? The team hasn't progressed stylistically in about 10 years - they still try to get buy with superior size, speed, and athletic ability. There are a number of teams in this tournament (Sweden, for one) who play real football. I wasn't sure that the loss was coming this tournament, but I knew after the US' first match it was coming.

The US needs to learn how to get more players like Aly Wagner out there, and fewer Lillys. The WUSA could've improved this team, but the chance was missed. In fact, they might be too far behind some of the other teams. They may never regain dominance.

[denver_mugwamp]

The men and women play in different soccer universes. However, the women seemed to be an older, slower team with an emphasis on experience. There were a few young players who contributed but it seemed like they were trying to use this WC as a last hurrah for some pleyers who were quite obviously past their prime. This might turn out to be a blessing in disguise if it leads to a major shake-up and opportunities for younger, hungrier players.

As for the men, the emphasis seems to be on developing younger players and giving them as many opportunities as they can handle. Fans of the men's team can look a few years ahead and see the younger players coming up. I don't think you can do that with the women's team, aside from one or two players.

[Casper]

Originally posted by Foosinho
The writing was on the wall for the women a long time ago. It was just a matter of time before this day came.

I agree that Heinrichs wasn't a very good coach. Why was Lilly still out there? Fawcett? Foudy? The team hasn't progressed stylistically in about 10 years - they still try to get buy with superior size, speed, and athletic ability. There are a number of teams in this tournament (Sweden, for one) who play real football. I wasn't sure that the loss was coming this tournament, but I knew after the US' first match it was coming.

The US needs to learn how to get more players like Aly Wagner out there, and fewer Lillys. The WUSA could've improved this team, but the chance was missed. In fact, they might be too far behind some of the other teams. They may never regain dominance.

I agree with your general sentiment, but Lilly has never gotten by on size or skill, since she's not exactly big. She is the most skilled midfielder on this squad save Wagner. My midfield criticism is mostly reserved for Foudy - I have been stunned that people haven't been calling to get her off of the pitch.

[Ghost]

I would say surpassed is a little strong. I cant' imagine the women putting in as poor a showing as the US did in the Confederations Cup, for instance. But it's clear one program is heading in one direction and one program is heading in the other. The US women won the youth champioship, so the yoiung talent is there. But it is time for a shakeup. I suspect the women will continue at the top of the game, but it's rebuilding time. And I do think the men have as much or more young talent.

[sch2383]

Our women were so great because we had to put money into women's sports (Title IX) before most of the world started doing so. We will always have a good team because of the greater freedom women have in this country (leagally and socially) compared to many other places in the world. So I do not think that it is a matter of the programs going in different direction as it is the rest of the world is catching up to our women and our men are catching up to the rest of the world.

[Foosinho]

Originally posted by sch2383
We will always have a good team because of the greater freedom women have in this country (leagally and socially) compared to many other places in the world.

I agree here.

So I do not think that it is a matter of the programs going in different direction as it is the rest of the world is catching up to our women and our men are catching up to the rest of the world.

I disagree with this. The women have, at the very least, failed to improve in the last four years, if not outright regressed. They are relying on players that should've been shown the door years ago. Hamm is about the only of the "old guard" that still belong (Sobrero belongs, but she's not "old guard"). Foudy, Lilly, Fawcett, McMillan, Milbrett... there weren't any better players in the WUSA? I never watched, but I just don't buy that.

This loss is kinda like when England first lost to Hungary. They were totally caught unawares by something that everyone else (well, the observant ones) saw coming well ahead of time. I'm unsure the US women will ever regain that level of dominance.

It's good in general for the women's game, but it could have been avoided by US coaches.

[dcc134]

Its likely the team fell victim to trying to save the sport by relying on the old faces to bring the fans out to the games.

Just like the men's WC its a young players tournament. Teams who rely on veterans to lead them through, rarely win the cup.

[Cavalier]

I agree with most here that the time has come and gone for most of the vets (including Hamm who by the Olympics in 2004 should possibly be used as a sub instead of a starter).

However what is most disconcerting to me is that frankly, one of the most hyped youngsters and someone the US may need to rely on for years, Aly Wagner, was absolute cr*p. At the beginning of the cup, comments were made that Aly was not starting because her lack of taking enough defensive responsibilities. What I saw though was a player who could not hold the ball under pressure and whose passes were most often either easily intercepted or simply kicked in the general direction of a US teammate as opposed to carefully weighted and placed into dangerous space. I would say that for someone who was touted as the great playmaker, Aly was hugely dissappointing, but the fact is, for just being a player on the US period, she was hugely dissappointing.

Compared to other youngsters such as Wambach and Reddick, she really needs to focus if she expects to have any impact in Athens.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by Cavalier
...
Compared to other youngsters such as Wambach and Reddick, she really needs to focus if she expects to have any impact in Athens.

Well given the USWNT's propensity to kick and run soccer, I suspect Wagner won't have much impact in a US uniform ever.

[sch2383]

Its funny...I just got off the phone with my sister, who as a 12 year old in 1999 knew everything about every player on the women's team, she lived and died with what that team did. Now at 16, she knows more about the men's team and cares more about how the USMNT does. When I asked her why, her line was "The men's game is just so much better".

Her current role model as a soccer player is Ruud van Nistelrooy not Mia Hamm, her favorite player is John O'Brien, not Aly Wagner. I don't know if this is just because she follows soccer or what, but I wonder if its a common occurance or if my sister is just wierd.

[StillKickin]

Originally posted by sch2383
Its funny...I just got off the phone with my sister, who as a 12 year old in 1999 knew everything about every player on the women's team, she lived and died with what that team did. Now at 16, she knows more about the men's team and cares more about how the USMNT does. When I asked her why, her line was "The men's game is just so much better".

Her current role model as a soccer player is Ruud van Nistelrooy not Mia Hamm, her favorite player is John O'Brien, not Aly Wagner. I don't know if this is just because she follows soccer or what, but I wonder if its a common occurance or if my sister is just wierd.

It's almost as if you are describing my daughter, who just turned 17. She too loved the women's game until the 2002 WC and fell in love with the men's team. She now plays "like the boys" and it's turned her into a terrific soccer player..."they player faster and better."

[jamison]

Originally posted by sch2383
Its funny...I just got off the phone with my sister, who as a 12 year old in 1999 knew everything about every player on the women's team, she lived and died with what that team did. Now at 16, she knows more about the men's team and cares more about how the USMNT does. When I asked her why, her line was "The men's game is just so much better".

Her current role model as a soccer player is Ruud van Nistelrooy not Mia Hamm, her favorite player is John O'Brien, not Aly Wagner. I don't know if this is just because she follows soccer or what, but I wonder if its a common occurance or if my sister is just wierd.

Thanks, Alex. I'll take Puberty for $ 800 :p.



In all seriousness, the world has caught up to the women's team and we all knew that would eventually happen. I think the US still has the best players, they just fumbled the transition between the old and new generation and the new generation isn't the light years ahead of the competition that the Hamm-Akers-Foudy-Lilly team was in it's prime. To me, China has fallen off more, and I expected improvement from Brazil that wasn't evident in their team either. In 4 years, I think the US will again be a favorite for the WWC.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should move this to the USWNT forum...

[Scoey]

Originally posted by jamison
Thanks, Alex. I'll take Puberty for $ 800 :p.

My thoughts exactly. It cuts both ways, though. My current favorite soccer team is the Sweden women. Yum.

In all seriousness, the world has caught up to the women's team and we all knew that would eventually happen. I think the US still has the best players, they just fumbled the transition between the old and new generation and the new generation isn't the light years ahead of the competition that the Hamm-Akers-Foudy-Lilly team was in it's prime. To me, China has fallen off more, and I expected improvement from Brazil that wasn't evident in their team either. In 4 years, I think the US will again be a favorite for the WWC.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should move this to the USWNT forum...

Don't move it, please. I find it interesting to learn the perspective of men's nats fans on this Women's World Cup.

It will be interesting to see how the Fed handles this. IMHO, if they let Heinrichs stick around for the Olympics, they will have failed. It will also be interesting to see who their pool of replacement candidates will include. If it includes only women, they will have failed. And if it includes only Americans, they will have failed.

[Real Ray]

Where Bondy is wrong is in the area of expectations: I think it's fair to say that in the coming years, we will still expect the women to advance deep into the WC. The men, you can't say that-even after the past WC and the young players coming through the ranks. WCQ is still a tough task-even as we continue to get better in our region.

So, that is why I posted it here rather than in the media or USWNT forum. It's the first of what will surely be many articles re: what the expecatations will be re: USMNT/Germany '06. Somehow we are now to expect more from the men than the woman?

I'm not so sure-and Bondy...I wonder what he'll write if '06 falls flat for the men?

[uniteo]

Originally posted by Cavalier
However what is most disconcerting to me is that frankly, one of the most hyped youngsters and someone the US may need to rely on for years, Aly Wagner, was absolute cr*p...

Compared to other youngsters such as Wambach and Reddick, she really needs to focus if she expects to have any impact in Athens.

I have to disagree, I saw some wonderful passes on the ground, some beatifully weighted 20-yard balls over defenders, and a willingness to attack 1 v. 1.

Yeah, she lost the ball, but she was the only player who tried to hold the ball and allow her teammates to make runs into space, or draw additional defenders.

Heinrichs didn't trust young players, and she certainly doesn't trust a young player whose style is not to try and win purely through physical domination. When you have a player like Wagner, who takes risks and tries unexpected plays, there will be a high failure rate, but she only needs to connect a handful of times in each game for her style to change the outcome.

[AndyMead]

The youngest player on the WWC team, Cat Reddick, is

a) not a professional player
b) older than DaMarcus Beasley
c) older than Landon Donovan
d) all of the above

[Brownswan]

Originally posted by Casper
My midfield criticism is mostly reserved for Foudy - I have been stunned that people haven't been calling to get her off of the pitch.

I've been watching her turn-over rate increase over the past 3 years -- in WUSA and the WNT -- and find it hard to believe other players weren't brought in to replace her, at least until she regained some of her '99 form. There was better than a 50-50 chance that any ball to her would end up in the other team's possession.

But maybe that was the problem -- too much '99 form across the board to begin with, like legacy software.

Quite a few, promising players turned up in the league, and they were passed over in order to retain the old guard. I can only wonder if April was overly influenced by the opinions of players she felt obliged to carry on the team.