Matchday 2: Werder Bremen - Schalke 04 23.08.08 3:30 PM CET [R]

[WinniWerder]

I finally get to throw in two cents - GOLTV (you suck because the pre-game line up showed Owomeyela starting for Werder and the analyst didn't have a clue!) gifted Canadians with a game. I always thought Tim Wiese was shakey but he didn't lose this battle (he scared me when he wandered out off his line - good recovery for a 400 KG gorilla). The defence: Oooh yuch what a mess! If Scheisske had started with a stronger wing-attack it would have been all over. I will give them some credit for hanging on by thier boot-strings but imo Proedl has alot to improve and Bonehead should be selling peanuts. Midfield: Nice one! First half against poor opposition play was a bit out of synch but the second half...Wow! TBow who? Strikers: Tough luck on some real chances but Schobeliscious looked like a freakin' genius brain out there. I won't be surprised to see 4 or 5 Bremers with 10+ goals in league play - mark my words! Refs: Go apply at GOLTV! No really, at least they let the game flow but thick glasses are in order.
Anywho, good to be along for the big Green and White ride this year and can't wait to see a healthy team hit the big screen! - Winni -

[Projekt4]

Awesome post WinniWerder!

[dkm1469]

This Schober guy who replaced Manuel Neuer with a world class performance today. How many quality keepers does Schalke produce? If he can keep that level, Schalke won't miss Neuer against Atletico.

I couldn't figure out if Schober had sold his soul to the Devil or was actually using the Force out there. Amazing saves. We created some great chances, just ran up against the wrong guy at the wrong time.

Our back line is scarier than a trip to Tokyo with Godzilla. Proedl was iffy and what the hell was up with Naldo standing at mid-field with the ball and seemingly forgetting where he was and what he was suppose to do. Mertsacker needs to come back quickly or we may never win..

I still love the Green & White, they need to find a line up, with Diego and Oetzl, I thought the kid played pretty well today.

We need to get points, can't expect Bayern to tie the rest of the season.....

[LebenslangGruenWeiss]

OK I ain't down with that streetspeak but I still like to expess what's on my mind right now:

@hackespitze: Ok there was obviously a misundertsanding. Still I believe you're judging this team too early. The season has just started and we all know Werder needs a few games to get out of first gear. It's been like that and it's the same this year. Judging from your posts I think your a bit too hysterical. I truly believe that all of the defenders in out squad are capable of being able to form a topclass backline and that the team as a whole can compete with the best in Europe. Those same old mistakes are perhaps only partly "same old". It's too early to derive conclusions. Judge this team after matchday 10 not matchday 2. Until that, let's just see what happens.

@Winni: You got it right. Schalke is not some pushover team. They'll be competing for the title this year. This time they have the right people in charge to actualy make it work. If they lose to Atlético they'll be even more dangerous. So I take the draw tonight as a good result even though we could have won with a bit more concentration and luck. I also agree that Diego, Mertesacker and Hunt might have provided for a different outcome tonight.

[WinniWerder]

OK I ain't down with that streetspeak but I still like to expess what's on my mind right now:


@Winni: You got it right. Schalke is not some pushover team. They'll be competing for the title this year. This time they have the right people in charge to actualy make it work. If they lose to Atlético they'll be even more dangerous. So I take the draw tonight as a good result even though we could have won with a bit more concentration and luck. I also agree that Diego, Mertesacker and Hunt might have provided for a different outcome tonight.

Yes, I should be more respectful of Boenisch because he did have alot on his plate today. Schalke...mnyeh, I suppose they handed us "The Ozilator" and fair game they mostly treat thier players well. I think I envy they have the cash to just fill in holes as needed (example: Engelaar) when Werder works so hard to develop talent. Wait a second...maybe I should pity the poor fools that buy thier way to the top!
I will be patient with the team as a whole and look forward to better performances by the Defence - I think what we saw today were stutters of inexperience and I applaud Mr. Schaaf for believing in them. A patch-work defence held off a football juggernaught today! 'nuff said!;)

[Equilibrium]

I think I envy they have the cash to just fill in holes as needed (example: Engelaar) when Werder works so hard to develop talent.

Are you serious? They are the perfect example of developing players all by themselves (Neuer, Pander, Howedes), buy potential players and developing them (Racitic, Rafinha, Jones) and guys who are ready (Engelaar, Farfan).

In my opinion, I think it will be a battle of Schalke vs Bayern for the title, and you guys either 3rd of if unlucky (or another team has a revelation) 4th.

[hackespitze123]

@hackespitze: Ok there was obviously a misundertsanding. Still I believe you're judging this team too early. The season has just started and we all know Werder needs a few games to get out of first gear. It's been like that and it's the same this year. Judging from your posts I think your a bit too hysterical. I truly believe that all of the defenders in out squad are capable of being able to form a topclass backline and that the team as a whole can compete with the best in Europe. Those same old mistakes are perhaps only partly "same old". It's too early to derive conclusions. Judge this team after matchday 10 not matchday 2. Until that, let's just see what happens.

It's true that we usually are slow starters, and it's also true that we do have some quality defenders in our ranks. However, the defensive problems we have, and for them not just the defenders are to blame, but the whole team / defensive organisation, are nothing new. We have them for years now, and there is nothing 'hysterical' in pointing out this obvious fact, and being annoyed by the complete lack of progress in this area.

It's just such a pain in the arse to see all the great football we play being 'wasted' by some absolutely avoidable, sometimes plain retarded mistakes. The team hurts itself way too often, and it hurts me as a fan. When will we finally see some progress in this area?

Signing a quality, pacy defensive midfielder would have been a start, Baumann definitely needs a replacement, or a quality backup at least. We did have the money this summer, we were too stingy. I just hope that this won't cost us, it actually may cost Bayern dearly, for example. The #6 is one of the most important positions in modern football, and it's crucial that whoever plays there needs to be at the top of his game, especially in our rather vulnerable diamond formation.

[WinniWerder]

Are you serious? They are the perfect example of developing players all by themselves (Neuer, Pander, Howedes), buy potential players and developing them (Racitic, Rafinha, Jones) and guys who are ready (Engelaar, Farfan).

In my opinion, I think it will be a battle of Schalke vs Bayern for the title, and you guys either 3rd of if unlucky (or another team has a revelation) 4th.

You know it's really damn hard to find out transfer fees ACTUALLY paid by teams on the internet. I didn't wan't to post back without doing some research first, but this is what I found: You are right in correcting me...Schalke does groom youth players into fine Bundesliga stars and I put a boot in my mouth there. I will therefore (quite sneakily) re-state my statement I previously stated from my stateroom somewhere in the United States stating that I am enviuos of Schalke having the upper hand in snatching players I wish we had snatched first because: A.) No one in his right mind, given the choice, would sign with Werder (on thier way down) over Schalke (on thier way up) and B.)Bremen couldn't negotiate a wool sock out of your mother's knitting bag this summer.
I will say this though - we're gonna beat the pants off Scheiske this season and make you eat those darn socks!:mad:

[WinniWerder]

Okay all cheekiness aside, I did extensive research last night and this morning about Schalke's recent transfer spending - and I must apologize for my assumptions. I didn't know about the clubs money woes after building a new stadium and having a series of deficit budgets. Apparently they didn't shell out a dime in transfers in summer 06'! They really performed well edging out Porto to reach the European finals 07/08' (Could Werder do that?) and set themselves up well for this year's Bundesliga campaign. It's scary! The transfer for J-Fan is confirmed at 10M E and for Engelfuss an estimated 5M. Your new boss certainly has drawn some talent that makes me excruciatingly jealous! It's sour grapes though :(.
My post wasn't so much a statement about Schalke (I feel bad about the slurr) but frustration that Werder didn't go out and get the goods the way Bayern and Schalke have. The post was meant to show a little regret for the manner I voiced my thoughts. I'm just too passionate about it because in real life am significantly understated. This was not the place and time for a big mouth! So I am sorry I let fly about things I don't know and will be a little more considerate (and informed) in the future. This morning I eat the socks :o.

[Equilibrium]

Ummm, I don't eat socks?.. :D I definitely see Schalke rising up and if they keep their main players for years, could challange for CL in very few years. I don't see Bremen going down, but they do have to make some major changes.

Hacke, I will add to your post. I think Baumann needs to be the cover man, in other words benched. Werder needs to buy a new DM, simply a player who is much better than Baumann, you can do much better than him. I would also buy a 3rd CB for cover purpose who can compliment Mertsacker well, and maybe even see if Naldo could even be benched by this (maybe). A LB could also be an option, a quality one. I would also look for a keeper. Lots of changes I know. Your strikers scored a lot of goals last season, yet Bremen go after more strikers instead of trying to buy players in positions they need much more. Wiese is a decent keeper, but not someone who is needed for a team that regularly plays in Champions League and challanges for the German League every year.

Some will probably definitely disagree with some of my choices, but these are the main problems. You have quite a few young players who are starters and will only get better, so I don't see Bremn going down. However, I see Schalke and Bayern as the 2, and Loserkusen, possibly Dormnd in the future, possibly Stuttgart, Wolfsburg and Hamburg gunning for that #3 spot in these years. A lot of these teams are improving tremendously, Bremen need to fix their main problems before trying to add to their strengths.


Your new boss certainly has drawn some talent that makes me excruciatingly jealous! It's sour grapes though.

By the way, I'm a BAYERN fan, not Schalke. I want them do well in CL, but I hope they fail in the league! :) It's all good, you didn't do anything wrong. I understand where you are comming from though. Schalke has however impressed me in terms of making talent, buying young talent, and buying already made talent for cheap. Very intelligent strategy in my opinion. Suggestion: Don't eat anymore socks! ;)

[hackespitze123]

Sportschau highlights of the match:

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4950675/Sportschau_23_8_08_Part_6

[hackespitze123]

@Equilibrium

Agree on the DM and an additional quality central defender (Prödl has potential, but he is raw still), disagree on Wiese. Yes, he had bad match yesterday, but he very often was the best player on the pitch for us in the last few seasons. He needs to continue to work on his weaknesses, and actually he has improved in certain areas already, but he is a very good keeper who definitely is good enough to play for a CL team.

Also disagree that we didn't need a striker badly, we did, because our relatively inexperienced strikers / forwards still waste too many chances. Pizarro adds experience an guile to the team, something it lacked. The other strikers will only improve playing with him. Besides, not only defensive mistakes were the reason why we didn't win yesterday, for example, but the simple fact that we didn't use our excellent chances once again. If Almeida, Pizarro, Rosenberg etc. had scored, if we had been leading 2:0, we most definitely would have won the match. It's much easier to defend once you have a comfortable lead, especially for a team like Werder with pacy forwards who are deadly on the counter.

[WinniWerder]

Some will probably definitely disagree with some of my choices, but these are the main problems. You have quite a few young players who are starters and will only get better, so I don't see Bremn going down. However, I see Schalke and Bayern as the 2, and Loserkusen, possibly Dormnd in the future, possibly Stuttgart, Wolfsburg and Hamburg gunning for that #3 spot in these years. A lot of these teams are improving tremendously, Bremen need to fix their main problems before trying to add to their strengths.

Suggestion: Don't eat anymore socks! ;)

This is a good thread - EQ you are very sporting with good knowlege! You hit the nail right on the head with Werder's future in the balance. My prediction is J.Klinnsmann is really Dr. Jekyll and van Bommel is his Golem. Crazy game yesterday, neh?

[Equilibrium]

Hack, it's your team. I definitely will only be happy when Wiese is in goal since I know there 5 German keepers alone in the Bundesliga who are better than him. He makes too many dumb mistakes for his time, he was one of the worst goalkeepers last season. By all means keep him, it will make easier for others to win the title, well us. :)

I'm not saying Pizarro was a bad signing since he was on loan, but he was no where near the biggest worry. Your strikers had the most goals most likely than anyone else in the Bundesliga besides Bayern. For me, Wiese is a keeper who could be used for a crappy team that looks at group stages as success. A team that wants to reach 16, quarters or even semis in Champions League cannot have someone like Wiese as their keeper. To each his own, though I definitely think he is not the keeper you guys need.

Have you won a league title since Wiese has joined you guys? Since he came, 2 times out in the group stages and once round of 16, did Wiese play good in that one round you guys actually made it through? This team should be one to pass the group stages every time, yet since he came they haven't done anything in Europe. During the time Wiese has come has kind of been Bremen's rise as one of Germany's finest, he definitely has not convinced me he has helped much for Bremen. Anyways, too long of a thing to talk about something I don't care much and basically benefits me as a rival fan. Yes, Winni yesterday was a crazy game. Would of been crazier if Bayern would of won though! :)

[scrbblsz]

personally, as a werder fan, i get nervous watching wiese between the posts. i can't trust that guy, he makes costly mistakes way too often. it's pretty scary that he's a solid no. 1 for a club like werder. he wouldn't have a chance in another top club.

[Rust_In_Peace]

On the top of my head I can remember 4 matches that Wiese saved our asses in..and that's just last season.

Be grateful guys...

BTW I wouldn't hit the panic button just yet guys..At this stage we are actually in a better position than we were season.

[LebenslangGruenWeiss]

@Equilibrium

The coaching staff and the management of Werder have managed to form a top Bundesliga team during the last 6 years in spite of many other teams with better financial premises. I think they have their reasons to trust players like Tim Wiese and Frank Baumann.

I have that same discussion with lots of non-Werder fans who rarely watch the matches and base their opinion on highlight shows or tabloid reports.
You've stated your opinion that you don't like Wiese and Baumann because they're not good enough for us. You haven't really backed up your opinion with arguments still I'd like to make a stand for both players here.

Tim Wiese is in the news as soon as he makes a mistake. Other keepers like Manuel Neuer for example have had more blunders last season but for certain reasons it doesn't get the same kind of coverage. He had a bad match against Schalke but he's had many many awesome and mistake-free matches in the past. His reflexes and his quickness are only matched by Rene Adler maybe. I haven't seen a keeper worldwide that wins so many one-on-one situations with the opponents forwards. And btw he's pretty close on breaking the world record in consecutive saved penaltys. I think he's saved the last 6 or so. He's definately among the 4-5 best keepers in the league. That we haven't won the league since Wiese is in goal might be a correlation but it's in no way a causality.

People like to bash Frank Baumann because he isn't flashy. He's not fast but on his position that's not so much of a disadvantage. He's a very smart player. His awareness and his positioning is awesome. Similar to the central defenders in Werder's system he often plays the first pass that initiates an attack. That happens quite often during the average Werder match because no team is pressuring the opposite goal like Werder does. Overall he's very important for Werder's play and he's a true leader on and off the pitch. So you might think it's funny or ridiculous or anything but even though he's not immune to being benched TS actually has rational reasons to play him when he's fit.

[hackespitze123]

Well said LebenslangGruenWeiss. Fully agreed on Wiese, I had to defend him myself with a similar post in the national team forum a few days ago.
I have a feeling that a lot of people, including quite a few Werder fans sadly, simply don't like him, because he is a 'loudmouth' (not necessarily negative in my eyes, too many 'streamlined' yes-men in the game these days, not enough 'characters'), because of his looks or whatever, so they are prejudiced, and don't rate his performances objectively.

Baumann is a more complicated case. While I agree that his positioning and anticipation is top notch, that he is basically 'made' for rather demanding #6 position in our diamond formation, there is no denying that he isn't the youngest anymore, and therefore naturally isn't as sharp as he used to be a few years ago. He is still an important player for us, due to his leading abilities and influential character, as you pointed out already. However, this is not the same Baumann of the 2004 winning team anymore, and he is a lot more injury prone these days also unfortunately. That's why a quality backup, or even replacement, would have made a lot of sense. Unfortunately, our management didn't see it that way, that's why I can only hope that young players like Niemeyer will develop (and stay fit), so we won't be affected too much by this. But it's a considerable and avoidable risk, since we did have the money to invest in that area this summer. Sooner or later Baumann has to be replaced anyway.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

Werder Bremen - Schalke 04 1-1 FT

Very typical Werder performance, no improvement whatsoever. We will never learn from our mistakes it seems, extremely annoying.

I think i saw a different match. :D

Compared to the Bielefeld match there was a lot of improvement.
The team created chances, but sadly missed most of them.

Claudio Pizzarro made a good debut, should have used his chance early
in the match, but cudos to Schober (excellent performance
in the whole match). He won the point for Schalke yesterday.

@Wiese:
Yes, he was shaky, but he also had a good scene with bringing
Schalkes midfield into trouble with a long goal-kick, that lead
us the 1-0.

[hackespitze123]

Like I wrote earlier in the thread already, I didn't have the Bielefeld match in mind when I said that there is no improvement in our defensive game. It definitely was a much better match than the Bielefeld match, but we still make the same silly mistakes that cost us so often in the last few years. Another match we should have won, as explained in detail earlier.