The State of Brazilian Futbol [R]

[nsa97531]

The game is over but there is certainly far more to be discussed. 3-0 is a thrashing by Brazils very high standard and I couldn't help but notice a few very obvious things. They looked like ENGLAND. You heard me....englland. Its almost scary to see a defensive and tactically minded brazilian squad. From lucas to diego they had very little firepower throughout the match and sat very far back on the field. When you look at the roster you see so many epl and bundesliga players which has never been fitting for the "samba" style as the commentator put it. Here's a little pos/ neg of the game.
Positives:
Pato came on and showed glimpses of his star potential. The kid can flat out play.
Ronaldhino looked fitter. Not fit. Still on the last leg of his career.
Diego played horribly. Can only go up.
Negatives"
This is their future.
Anderson played with a reserve i have never seen in him. He usually plays with a wrecklessness with a touch of being cocky that makes him dangerous offensively.
Red cards. We saw what belgium did to italy. Enough said...Without those two it could get ugly.
I thought I was watching Argentina vs. Euro qualifying England.

Weak performance. I see a trend in brazilian soccer that i hate. Leave your thoughts

[aerez]

Is there a point to have a state of the union address every time something goes wrong. Brazil got romped by a team that was on their game today and Brazil was still tough.

[Excape Goat]

1) There needs to be a [R] on the topic.

2) Brazil put 3 goals past Argentina at the Copa America Final last summer. Argentina beat Brazil 4-1 in the WCQ at home, but lost 3-nil to Brazil away. So the 3 goal margin is getting to be normal between Brazil and Argentina.

3) Argentina obnviously sent their best squad. Brazil will like to have Robinho and Kaka on the squad. Having said that, Argentina gets better talents these days so it would not really matter that much.

4) Brazil today reminded me of Brazil at the Copa America. Brazil was luckily to put 3 unanswered goal past Argentina a year ago. In actuality, Brazil was playing unattractive football that day. I was sad to see Brazil winning that match. I thought that victory "killed" Brazil.

[aerez]

e3) Argentina obnviously sent their bst squad. Brazil will like to have Robinho and Kaka on the squad. Having said that, Argentina gets better talents these days so it would not really matter that much.

Just as Brazil sent their best U23 squad as well. Robihno and Kaka are over 23. It's not Argentina's best team, but definitely their best young team on paper (with the exception of a few missing)

[Kevin8833]

Dunga's awful, he needs to go. I don't really follow Brazil but I saw this game and their qualifier against Paraguay, with all the talent it is ridiculous the way Dunga plays. He might be as bad as Robobob.

[Failed States]

2)Argentina beat Brazil 4-1 in the WCQ at home, but lost 3-nil to Brazil away. So the 3 goal margin is getting to be normal between Brazil and Argentina.


Last WCQ ended 0-0 and qualifiers for 2006 had both games ending in 3-1 wins a piece.

[Andrés_]

2) Brazil put 3 goals past Argentina at the Copa America Final last summer. Argentina beat Brazil 4-1 in the WCQ at home, but lost 3-nil to Brazil away. So the 3 goal margin is getting to be normal between Brazil and Argentina.

Somewhat questionable. Probably Messi, Riquelme, Mascherano and Gago are the only ones who would take part in an "A" squad. Yet there are some missing like Tevez, Demichellis, Milito, maybe Zanetti and Heinze, and Maxi Rodríguez.

Now i got to say i'm kind of surprised by certain players of Brazil, how the hell are they wearing the yellow shirt is beyond me, and there are 2 in particular that got my attention. Alex Silva, too "rustic" to be a defender, fine you'll say the defense isn't Brazil's best but still, almost every touch of his with the ball was a punt to nowhere.
And the second one is Anderson, how did the hell this guy get to play at Manchester United? The only thing he did through the whole match was to commit fouls(he was kind of lucky to not see the red card too).

I think it's possible that the "top of Brazil" is better than the "top of Argentina" but that in the "overall" Argentina is better than Brazil.

[argentine soccer fan]

The state of Brazilian futbol is simple. They lost to a better team.

[comme]

The game is over but there is certainly far more to be discussed. 3-0 is a thrashing by Brazils very high standard and I couldn't help but notice a few very obvious things. They looked like ENGLAND. You heard me....englland.

The difference is that the last two times we played Argentina we won.

The state of Brazilian futbol is simple. They lost to a better team.

I'm only watching the highlights now, but in fairness Brazil hit the woodwork twice and had a seemingly legitimate goal disallowed.

At 3-0 Brazil appeared to fall apart, though I felt the sendings off were pretty harsh.

[argentine soccer fan]

I'm only watching the highlights now, but in fairness Brazil hit the woodwork twice and had a seemingly legitimate goal disallowed.

At 3-0 Brazil appeared to fall apart, though I felt the sendings off were pretty harsh.

Right. But one of the woodworks and the disallowed goal were on the same play, which happened after:

a) Brazil was given a free kick for a play that clearly was not a foul.
b) Ronaldinho was allowed to retake the free kick after the ball hit the wall and allegedly the wall moved forward even though in the replay it appeared that nobody moved forward.

When Ronnie retook the free kick that he shouldn't have been given in the first place, let alone been allowed to take twice, that is when he hit the post and on the rebound they scored the offside goal that arguably was not offside.

So, it was justice that the goal didn't count, even if it wasn't off-side.

btw: on that same play Nicolas Pareja got an unfair yellow card, which will keep him from playing in the final.

[comme]

They didn't show that in the highlights. :p

I just find these sort of post-mortems strange given that this is an U23 tournament, though I understand that Brazil aren't doing well in qualifying.

As EG says I thought Brazil were utterly outplayed in the first half of the Copa America but somehow managed to win.

Also on the Brazil boards some people are calling for the return of Luxemburgo, despite his terrible performance previously (which resulted in a disastrous Olympics in 2000).

Having said that I support Spurs and we are already considering sacking the manager after losing the first game of the season, so I know just how fickle people can be.

[argentine soccer fan]

They didn't show that in the highlights. :p

I just find these sort of post-mortems strange given that this is an U23 tournament, though I understand that Brazil aren't doing well in qualifying.

As EG says I thought Brazil were utterly outplayed in the first half of the Copa America but somehow managed to win.

Also on the Brazil boards some people are calling for the return of Luxemburgo, despite his terrible performance previously (which resulted in a disastrous Olympics in 2000).

Having said that I support Spurs and we are already considering sacking the manager after losing the first game of the season, so I know just how fickle people can be.

Brazil will be back, they have too many good players. Still, I think Argentina is playing better football lately for the most part, ever since the last qualifiers and world cup. But Brazil seemed to always get fortunate against us, so it was logical that sooner or later it would go the other way.

Brazilians get on Dunga, but it's the same everywhere. If Argentina loses one game, everybody in Argentina wants to crucify Basile, that is what fans are like.

[Alex_1]

They didn't show that in the highlights. :p

I just find these sort of post-mortems strange given that this is an U23 tournament, though I understand that Brazil aren't doing well in qualifying.

As EG says I thought Brazil were utterly outplayed in the first half of the Copa America but somehow managed to win.

Also on the Brazil boards some people are calling for the return of Luxemburgo, despite his terrible performance previously (which resulted in a disastrous Olympics in 2000).

Having said that I support Spurs and we are already considering sacking the manager after losing the first game of the season, so I know just how fickle people can be.

The problems with the Selecao have been long stated. But with Dunga in charge they've been exascerbated. He's out of his depth as a manager and in all fairness to him, he should be since this is his first real management job. He's not ready. It's been 8 years since Luxemburgo was manager and in that time he's gotten much better IMO with dealing with players and the pressures of some of these jobs.

The reality today is that Argentina were the better team on the field and in the management sidelines. They finished their chances and took advantage of Brasil's horrible game-plan, because they had the talent to do so. Make no mistake, Argentina deserved to win. I haven't seen a manager this outcoached in a little while. And it repeated a very bad consistency with Dunga. His team's have shown occasional flashes of brilliance... form the players, that is. Because Dunga's biggest problem with the selecao, IMO, was his inability to establish a potent, possession/dominating midfield.

That's a real problem because right now, Brasil's finishers and strikers are not as good as just 3-4 years ago. How desperate that a lot is riding on Adriano to return to form! Also, Dunga has had a lot of talent to choose from in the midfield or at the very least, the withdrawn striker role. There's a reason why Diego plays so well with Werder, and Anderson is capable of playing much better than this as well - he isn't a hack at Manchester United and in the U-17s, he showed that he was anything but. There's skill in midfield and Brasil has the talent - I don't believe that from starters to reserves, Argentina are better - that's my honest opinion - because even now Brasil still has a lot of skill there.

Another problem with Dunga has been his selection process, which again is completely subjective to any of us. He seems to have an affinity to some players, they become "Dunga's guys". Rightfully so on some occasions (leaving out the out-of-form players like Ronaldo), but dreadfully wrong on others (through thick/thin, sticking with Vagner Love). He's also been mistaken by being so rigid with his formations & hasn't adjusted to the fact that full-backs like Roberto Carlos and Cafu aren't so common. But see... this is also the part that gets me... they don't have to be, because you have different talents there that are very potent, like Daniel Alves, that Dunga also never figured out how to use in his teams. He hasn't been able to adjust.

All in all, a 'state-of-the-union' was a bit overdue for Brasil. It's one thing to lose, that happens. You can't win them all. But it's the consistency with some problems that is troubling. Especially since there is talent that is capable of doing much better than this, and better than they've done in World Cup qualifying.

[comme]

Brazil will be back, they have too many good players. Still, I think Argentina is playing better football lately for the most part, ever since the last qualifiers and world cup. But Brazil seemed to always get fortunate against us, so it was logical that sooner or later it would go the other way.

Brazilians get on Dunga, but it's the same everywhere. If Argentina loses one game, everybody in Argentina wants to crucify Basile, that is what fans are like.

Yeah I know. Fans are fickle.

But it's the sort of soul searching that always seems a bit over the top. Brazil will be contenders at the WC, no matter what happens. They always are. There is nothing fundamentally wrong in Brazil, just as there is nothing fundamentally wrong with football in England. Shit happens.

They lost to a very good team, and one who have a phenomenal group of U23 players.

[comme]

Alex, we're overlapping here, so there's a good chance that point will be duplicated but you make good points there.

My problem for Brazil would be (and I have only seen them about 8 times since the WC so I'm not commenting from a position of particularly strong knowledge) that they have a lot of good players in not many positions.

Got a great goalkeeper in Julio Cesar, some very good centre backs and right backs, and alot of creative midfielders/forwards.

They are short at left back, central midfield and genuine strikers.

Looking at the results so far and those to come, Brazil have more than enough to qualify. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

[monstersoccerfreak]

THANK YOU !

I AGREE 100% ... BRAZIL BEATING A MUCH BETTER ARGENTINA IN COPA AMERICA ONLY PERPETUATED THE CURRENT DISGRACEFUL FOOTBALL THAT HAS PLAGUED BRAZIL SINCE 1998 ............. It's 2008 .... that's 10 years of SHIT football

[scotch17]

tbh, it was fairly close as the player was leaning one way and the defender leaning the other -- but it's typical for the flag to go up in that situation -- though I really wish they'd give more of those 50/50s to the attacking player.
I thought it was Di Maria that got the yellow on that play? I'm probably wrong though. The ref had entirely too much fun with the cards... and god only knows how you award a pk like that and avoid the 2nd yellow... I'll tell you why: because you know you were too fast on the cards earlier on.

[nsa97531]

I realize that brazil is always going to be top ten by the sheer number of good players they have., it just seems like they're losing the ability to create kakas who see the game like that and are ridiculously creative. I saw very boring soccer today from them today.

[glennaldo_sf]

Argentina have always been a powerhouse at youth football - along with Nigeria, Ghana, Portugal, etc. but when it comes to the full national team - Brazil will always have the edge.

On the other hand, maybe Brazil are on the same level as the USA now.... in the sense that their womens teams kicks their mens team's ***. :p

[ITALIA1982]

The current state of Brazilian Futbol is to say the least gloomy...
Reminds me with the dark 24 years following their 1970 WC win.
Argentina was amazing and on a totally different level than Brazil, and definetly will be the overwhelming favorite to win the next WC, as much as I love Ronaldinho and Pato, being an AC Milan fan, I am not very optimistic...that is to say the least.