3-5-2 defensive principles

[JohnW]

To separate topics "First year coaching" from discussion of 3-5-2, I started a new thread.

My previous post:

[quote]
Keep in mind that just as you can implement a 4-4-2 in several ways (sweeper/stopper, flat, with/w-out marking, etc.), there are a variety of ways that you can implement the 3-5-2.

For example, when Brazil uses the 3-5-2, R. Carlos and Cafu function as wingbacks. In fact, sometimes you'll see the lineup as 5-3-2. Nevertheless, they both have great latitude to get up the flanks, but they also have defensive responsibilities.

Now shift to the US-Mexico game. The U.S. went with what were in effect three central defenders, two defensive midfielders in front of them and three more midfielders in front.

On right-side attacks, you saw Sanneh sliding out to tackle man with ball with Reyna tracking back to help. The two defensive midfielders, Mastroeni and O'Brien (?-can't remember now) smothered attacks up the middle.

The point is that these are two very different ways of using the 3-5-2. What makes it work is players who understand their responsibilities and then carry them out.

This is something that you as the coach decide, communicate and monitor.

Finally, I encourage you not to discourage (!) your defenders from venturing forward. You certainly want numbers back, but going back to the Brazil example, Lucio is very effective at getting forward from the central defender spot...

[end quote]

[JohnW]

First, let me say that we use both a 4-4-2 and a 3-5-2 depending on the opponent, game conditions, etc.

Also, I personally think that depending on the roles you assign your players, the formations can look very similar or very different (comparing 4-4-2 and 3-5-2). But the key then is the assignments each player has.

So here is a basic defensive alignment utilizing three defenders and two defensive midfielders.

X5 X6

X2 X3 X4

(Note: I've tried editing this thing and I can't get it to look like I want. Picture a short pyramid with the apex removed.)

One of the things that this alignment is good for is stopping penetration up the middle of the field. If I am facing a team with a very good central mid, I will sometimes have X5 man mark him, with X6 roaming in front of the three defenders.

The flip side is that you can be vulnerable to attacks on the flanks. Now, depending on the level of your league, this can actually be a positive because more skill is involved with taking a ball to the corner, crossing and getting a shot on goal than a player taking the ball right up the middle and laying off or (worse) scoring.

Thus, one thing to work on with your defenders is (obviously) what to do when there is flank penetration.

[JohnW]

Stopping flank penetration

Again, there are other ways of making the assignments, but this is basically what we do:

Let's say there is an attack in your left defensive third. X2 (your left back) picks up pressure on the ball. X5 (left defensive mid) sags to defend anyone cutting or penetrating from near top left corner of 18.

For sustained possession by opponent, outside left mid must track back for defensive support. He can also switch with X5 so that X5 can put additional pressure on offensive player (or provide support).

X6 will slide across to defend top of 18, watch for player/s camping there or cutting through.

X3 provides cover if X2 gets beat along end line.

X4 must watch for field switch and/or player streaming down right side.

I use X3 to help organize the defense, also.

Hopefully this helps some.

jgw

[Coryattheplex]

Hey John thanks, I didn't notice this thread until moments ago, but you have nailed down several of my concerns. I plan on having my forwards be an integral part of this system by asking them to drop back and in on keeper pick ups and goal kicks. I expect them to help clog midfiels and generate poke tackle turn overs in middle third, while generall slowing up central attack and pressuring team to go to the outside. I am inviting the other team to go outside because my team 'traps' the ball and player very well out there, and are less likely to get beat on the dribble. Most teams place their somewhat less skilled, less composed under pressure players on the wings, I want the boys to take advantage of this and cause high pressure situations there that result in panic play by the opposition.

It has worked so far, but I am also looking for adaptability. Any pointers?

[JohnW]

Originally posted by Coryattheplex
...I am inviting the other team to go outside because my team 'traps' the ball and player very well out there, and are less likely to get beat on the dribble....

It has worked so far, but I am also looking for adaptability. Any pointers?

Good.

Let me think about it.

[Coryattheplex]

John,

wanted you to know, my boys opened with a 5-1 win last night. Gave up the one goal on a corner kick that my goalie dropped. The mad scramble that ensued ended up resulting in the goal, but not until after 2 of my defenders, (who were in position thank god), made consecutive goal line saves.....it's just always that third one that kills ya'! Any way our defensive shape was great, and we forced a lot of give a ways with our mids and forwards pressuring the build up in the other teams' end.

[JohnW]

Originally posted by Coryattheplex
... Any way our defensive shape was great, and we forced a lot of give a ways with our mids and forwards pressuring the build up in the other teams' end.

Excellent job, Cory. Best of luck for the rest of the season.

I never got back to you on adaptability because I wasn't sure what you meant.

I'll give a couple of examples, and then you can clarify if you would like.

I think I already mentioned that with a 3-5-2 you can make a couple of minor tactical changes without changing the entire formation.

For example, I will sometimes take one of my defensive mids and have him man mark the other team's best player. This is especially true if that player really creates most (or all) of their dangerous chances.

The other defensive mid has a little more ground to cover, but he should still be able to jam up the middle and channel attacks to the flank.

Another example is holding a lead late. I will sometimes go to a 4-5-1 by replacing one forward with a defensive player who drops into the position of the central defender, who then drops into a sweeper position. Thus, the backline looks like a 3-1. The midfield stays the same.

jgw

[Coryattheplex]

Originally posted by JohnW



For example, I will sometimes take one of my defensive mids and have him man mark the other team's best player. This is especially true if that player really creates most (or all) of their dangerous chances.

Another example is holding a lead late. I will sometimes go to a 4-5-1 by replacing one forward with a defensive player who drops into the position of the central defender, who then drops into a sweeper position. Thus, the backline looks like a 3-1. The midfield stays the same.

jgw

Funny that you say this now because it is what I already decided upon for my two adaptations to special circumstances.
I moved the kid who used to be my stopper into one of the defensive mid spots, he man marks like a mother you know what, but has the speed and technical ability to play short one and two touch passes with my other mids. Kid was all conference last year, can't wait o see what he can do now!
As for the 4-5-1, the team we played tuesday was always chasing us, so I haven't had the need to use it yet.

[Reality_Al]

I've been calling this a FLEX-5

I used it in Youth soccer,U-14, and it worked very well defensively. I coached JV HS Girls last year, and introduced it. We were very successful using it. However, the Varsity Coach thought it a bad idea because he used a 1 3 3 3 sweeper-stopper arrangement and felt that they JV's who dressed for Varsity wouldn't be able to adjust.
Now this year, I've introduced it as a 1-2 2 3 2, w/ the sweeper, (or a 3-2-3-2 flat back, dbl stopper). In our first scrimmage, we maintained shape for 1 minute. By game 4, we were up to 30. Because they play 80 minutes, we lost them all BIG TIME. However, when they maintained shape, they were as good as anyone. They are learning the FLEX and the areas of responsibility. That is the tricky part, I think, because, depending on the positional names you give, they can become completely confused.

[JohnW]

Originally posted by Reality_Al
I've been calling this a FLEX-5..

...In our first scrimmage, we maintained shape for 1 minute. By game 4, we were up to 30. Because they play 80 minutes, we lost them all BIG TIME. However, when they maintained shape, they were as good as anyone. They are learning the FLEX and the areas of responsibility. That is the tricky part, I think, because, depending on the positional names you give, they can become completely confused.

Good point, Al.

A couple of things you can do to work on maintaining shape during practice (and maybe you already do this):

1. Of course, there's always the tried and true whistle/freeze, quick comment on shape (good or bad)/allow players to correct/figure out what's wrong or right, then restart.

2. Also, if I have a player/s who is having a hard time seeing the shape, I'll sometimes start play with that player subbed out, standing by my in stands near field (on a bank, etc.-anything up higher) so that he can see how the play develops and what his position on the field should be. You can keep rotating players in and having them watch until they have all seen good or bad spacing. (Note: I make the watching brief so players don't cool off too much.)

jgw

[m-chill]

Coryattheplex,

Generally I like attacking a team that plays a 3-5-2. i have read how your team plays the 3-5-2 and i can give you a perspective on how a coach might approach attacking your team. 1stly i have to say normally i like going up the middle of a 3-5-2. But if I saw that your outside mids were not getting back, I would attack the sides like so: I would have my outside defenders bring the ball forward and engage your outside mids. Then I’d have them play a ball forward to that side’s outside mid. Then I’d have that outside mid engage your outside defender. While that’s taking place I’d have my forward on that side make a diagonal run in behind that defender. The ball would be played down that wing <not to far ahead>. That forward would then draw your center back. The last pass would be to the middle to the other forward cutting in behind the space your center back left. With your line and positioning, at best you would have the outside defender from the other side trying to catch that center forward. I like my chances of a center forward having at best, 1 defender to beat in the middle of the pitch. Of course, if I wasn’t getting anything from that match up I’d have my outside mid from the far side run into the space your outside defender left to cover my forward and attack there if my forward couldn’t win the 1v1.
Honestly I’ve never seen a team be successful at a 3-5-2 without strong/athletic 2way players on the outsides. There really isn’t cover for the mids out there if your just going to play 3 defenders. If your defenders are going out to cover there your basically leaving 2 defenders against 2 forwards. That’s an awful big risk in my book.
anyways good luck and hopefully no1 will catch on to your system.

[Coryattheplex]

Thanks m-chill, you just proved my system right once more....my outside mids ALWAYS cover back. In fact, they become almost like a 5 man flat back with the way they shift and cover. Sorry to tell you this, but your team will not beat us tactically that way.

[m-chill]

Coryattheplex> i thought i read somewhere in that massive thread "the mother thread" that you put your playmakers out wide. i went with the assumption that others have taken, that your playmakers did not track back on the outsides. from there i was trying to help you by showing a way that teams could attack your setup so that you could counter it. if all your players are getting back all the time then it realy doesn't matter what tactics you use. the only thing i would watch for in the 3-5-2 if your outside mids are getting back is the quick counter where the opponent basically plays its 2 forwards against your 3 backs by sending balls long. personally thats why i keep 4 back. i hate giving up goals to teams that don't even work the ball. so i keep 4 back (1 sweeper) so teams can't hit us on long through balls. i love the offensive options the 3-5-2 gives. so many times my stopper will step in2 the midfield and playmake from behind the mids basically giving us a 3-5-2 attacking shape.

[Coryattheplex]

Originally posted by m-chill
Coryattheplex> i thought i read somewhere in that massive thread "the mother thread" that you put your playmakers out wide. i went with the assumption that others have taken, that your playmakers did not track back on the outsides.

Your assumptions are exactly what I feed off of to fuel our tatical success. My best play makers are on the outside, where they have room and time to make things happen, but they are not lazy, can not be lazy, because they are on the outside where they absolutely have to track back to play defense.....but more importantly, they are then in a position to receive the ball as a short outlet. Once an opponent has shifted to start pressuring them as they recieve the outlet, they have the skills and vision to link with our central mids through short passing and work their way swiftly out of pressure......usually ending with an opponent running in collective circles as we play a ball through to a weak side runner, or square across the field to shift the point of attack.

Ever watch the premier league? my outsides aren't that good, but they play the same role you see out of the top teams.

[zozojar]

Missed the "mother thread" so Ima jumping in the middle here but the "3-5-2" topic caught my eye.

Cory, what age kids are we talking about? I'm assuming from the subject that we're talking about a pretty developed group.

I like the 3-5-2 because it is versatile. It lends itself very well to transitioning both directions after a turnover because it's a naturally balanced set, especially if you can get away with putting some heads-up attackers out wide. This is what I went to in my college days when I felt we were outmatched.

Anywho, something I wanted to throw out there (I noticed some were throwing out suggestions) is the whole 1st/2nd/3rd defender concepts. You mention your team "traps" when wide which sounds like you've got them recognizing the 1st/2nd (which I must say is great because I've seen a lot of quality players come out of HS without that type of tactical recognition). Teaching the concept of the 3rd defender or the "balance" is a good way to teach kids shape in a smaller setting (just another idea to go along with pulling them aside and having them watch the big picture from a hill).

[Reality_Al]

I'm using this formation for a HS Ladies soccer team. So far, we are 3-1-1 in our division. The challenge has been the choice between man marking and zone. Defense seems to work best on contain waiting for support. This has resulted in significant turn-overs from the opponents. The transition between the AM and the DM usually works best if there is no intermediate pass to them. Either of them have to take the ball forward and to the flank. The WIngs(called the L or R Mids sometimes) receive and goforward to the forwards. After passing up, they overlap or make a run to the inside. Our center playmaker has to be the best conditioned most heads-up player, and must sacrafice. Many times, she has to fall back to defend the center while giving the scoring opportunities to the Flanks.

[m-chill]

Coryattheplex>"My best play makers are on the outside, where they have room and time to make things happen, but they are not lazy, can not be lazy, because they are on the outside where they absolutely have to track back to play defense"
thats gr8. so many playmakers are aloud to slack defensively on teams. its good to see that your not alowing this attitude, ala el pibe. i also like the way your team is using short passing to work your way through the mid. i was guessing that you had your playmakes outwide hitting up long balls since you have them out wide. personaly, i like my playmakers in the middle working short one twos with the fowards that are checking back, up the middle and through tight spaces. it can be more taxing skill wise but i like to chalenge my playmakers so the grow and develope that ability to play under pressure in tight spaces.

[SoccerDale]

Originally posted by m-chill
Coryattheplex> if all your players are getting back all the time then it realy doesn't matter what tactics you use. the only thing i would watch for in the 3-5-2 if your outside mids are getting back is the quick counter where the opponent basically plays its 2 forwards against your 3 backs by sending balls long. personally thats why i keep 4 back. i hate giving up goals to teams that don't even work the ball. so i keep 4 back (1 sweeper) so teams can't hit us on long through balls. i love the offensive options the 3-5-2 gives. so many times my stopper will step in2 the midfield and playmake from behind the mids basically giving us a 3-5-2 attacking shape.

That's what was bugging me... the only thing teams would do to my team was kick and chase. I was using a 4 (flatback)-5-1 and when the offside wasn't called (only 1 Ref at U-12) we were caught on a fastbreak. I changed to the 3(sweeper)-5-2 to overload the area that the other team was sending long balls from (their defensive third and midfield) and to cover the area the balls were going to. I also knew that I have 3 excellent defenders (and a couple of good ones) and the rest of the players are mids -- don't have any true strikers, so I am hoping that the 2 up front will work hard to pressure the other team's defenders. So far it has worked -- only gave up one shot last game. Another thing that helped against long balls was to have my keeper playing between the center line and the 18 and sending everything kicked long back down the wings.

[Reality_Al]

Originally posted by SoccerDale

Another thing that helped against long balls was to have my keeper playing between the center line and the 18 and sending everything kicked long back down the wings.

This is an interesting idea. I use the 3(Sweeper)-5-2, and long balls have been a challenge because when I press-up the D's, it can result in a 2 v GK.
But you send the Keeper all the way past the penalty box, toward the midline? Where are your D's?, and has anyone, even the attackers, chipped over?
Next week, we play a long ball team that sends one fwd up the Flank, the other side arcs to the Sweeper, and the CF trailers in the center until the MIDs overlap. How do you think we'd do w/ your GK strategy?

[zozojar]

If you keep your 5 middies active in a 3-5-2 the long ball shouldn't be a big issue. Just work with your two up top to funnel the ball wide before it hits the middle third. Then, if the other team wants to play long ball force them to do it with their outside backs. If their outside backs can hit a 70 yd. diagonal long ball, well, you're hosed anyways. If they can't (which should be the case) one of three things should happen. Either they try to hit the diagonal and it ends up playing into your 5, or they try to play the long ball down the line which leads to a ball out of bounds or if they do get it past your d it is wide enough to allow time for your central d to recover.

Also, if you go with keeper out thing (which I don't personally recommend... this isn't teaching the kids anything that will help them down the road), this is much less dangerous than allowing your keeper to defend up the center of the pitch.

Anywho, my $.02.