today and the back pass

[blech]

a couple of interesting scenarios came up for me in today's game. (i'll add that the back pass rule remains the one that i struggle with the most, perhaps since it wasn't around when i was playing competitively). to the extent it matters, these are rec games.

1. the goalie collects the ball on a through ball. he goes to punt it and it literally goes up in the air about two or three yards to his right. a defender is fortuitously standing right there and sticks out his leg. the ball strikes his mid-shin, and rolls directly back to the goalie. the goalie picks it up to try punting it again.

i know a part of the rule is deliberate, but i still don't completely understand how you make that determination when you can't get into his head. the defender certainly didn't whiff on the ball entirely or anything like that. it sure seemed that he was playing it back across the goal, and no one else was there but the goalie. also, does it matter that it came off his shin, rather than his foot? would it be different if it was his knee? his chest? his head?

and, as an aside, what if the ball in this situation had been passed back to the goalie by the defender with his head - this would otherwise be legal, right, but does this restart the 6 seconds? obviously, a unique, unlikely scenario, but is there anything in the rules about that?


2. a ball is played into the goal area. the defender is equal to the nearpost, two or three yards off the line. he doesn't do the best job of trapping it, and ends up with the ball at his feet, but turned around and facing the goal. he doesn't touch the ball again, and the goalie now comes racing out and scoops the ball up from his feet, while the defender is now (legally) shielding the offensive player on his back.

as noted above, my read was that the defender didn't intend the ball to go the goalie when he was initially trying to trap it, although he certainly knew the goalie was coming to get it when he left it for him and focused on shielding the offensive player.


i heard from the coaches on both sides about each of these scenarios, and my calls. any thoughts on the correct calls. let me know if you need more info.

[nsa]

1. Did the ball exit the PA? The old LOTG required a ball released into play to be touched by an opponent anywhere or by a teammate of the 'keeper outside the PA. I'd still apply that to this situation.

2. This happens alot. Generally I allow it, unless I see the defender making significant eye contact with the 'keeper.

[Pokeden]

Originally posted by nsa
1. Did the ball exit the PA? The old LOTG required a ball released into play to be touched by an opponent anywhere or by a teammate of the 'keeper outside the PA. I'd still apply that to this situation.

2. This happens alot. Generally I allow it, unless I see the defender making significant eye contact with the 'keeper.
Remember: in the opinion of the Referee

point 1:
This was a keeper collecting a through ball---so, this does not apply---just on goal kicks.

point2:
It is one of those "be there" things. Good point about eye contact; also, watch body language and listen very closely to verbals.

[nsa]

Originally posted by Pokeden
point 1:
This was a keeper collecting a through ball---so, this does not apply---just on goal kicks. That's why I refered to the "old LOTG", prior to the "foot pass rule". One of the IFK offenses in the old Law XII penalised a 'keeper for handling the ball if it came back to him from a teammate without exiting the PA.

[Grizzlierbear]

Originally posted by Pokeden
Remember: in the opinion of the Referee
#1 spot on reminder! Monday night quarterbacking or 2nd quessing is not a luxury enjoyed during a match.

Originally posted by Pokeden

point 1:
This was a keeper collecting a through ball---so, this does not apply---just on goal kicks.

(or ANY free kick taken by defenders from inside the penalty area must exit the area to be in play)
But the point this was just a miskick during regular play is made. Off the shin is not the foot so no problem in my opinion.

Originally posted by Pokeden

point2:
It is one of those "be there" things. Good point about eye contact; also, watch body language and listen very closely to verbals.

YHTBT. I think the clues are valid as well. Tough one but once the ball was being sheilded that is a play on the ball and if it was deliberatly touched with the foot this could easily qualify for a pass back in my opinion it that the ball was left TO the keeper. We are certainly not into gotcha and I would have to be certain not just I wonder?

[blech]

Originally posted by Grizzlierbear

***
Off the shin is not the foot so no problem in my opinion.
***


can someone please clarify/confirm, if the referee believed it deliberate, must the back pass be with the foot?


to give a little more information, in this particular instance, my immediate opinion at the time was that the ball had been played directly back to the goalie. the part that was odd -- separate from the play as a whole -- was that it was played with the shin, not the foot. leaving aside the issue of the ball not leaving the box, or the potential for abuse of the 6 second rule via another immediate possession by the keeper, does the shin versus the foot make a difference if the referee's opinion is that is was deliberate? (i understand that the referee would be taking into account that the ball was played with the shin and not the foot in determining whether or not the result was "deliberate").

[Pokeden]

Originally posted by blech
can someone please clarify/confirm, if the referee believed it deliberate, must the back pass be with the foot?
In order for it to be a foul, the foot needs to be involved. This being without trickery to circumvent the law! It is legal to pass to the keeper using the thigh, chest and head.
Keep in mind, a player can legally pass back to the keeper using the foot---the keeper just can't use their hands!

[Statesman]

Originally posted by blech
Leaving aside the issue of the ball not leaving the box, or the potential for abuse of the 6 second rule via another immediate possession by the keeper, does the shin versus the foot make a difference if the referee's opinion is that is was deliberate?

For this judgement the shin is considered part of the foot.

[Gary V]

Re: the "old" LOTG, Advice to Referees still documents the restriction that the ball must pass outside the PA before the keeper can touch it again after it is played by a teammate:
12.19 SECOND TOUCH BY THE GOALKEEPER
A goalkeeper who has taken hand control of the ball and then released it back into play may not handle
the ball again until it has been played by an opponent anywhere on the field or by a teammate who is
outside of the penalty area. Referees should note carefully Decision 2, which defines "control" and
distinguishes this from an accidental rebound or a save.In my opinion, this is one of the least-known parts of the "old" Laws that remain in effect.

Re: the so-called "pass-back"
12.20 BALL KICKED TO THE GOALKEEPER
A goalkeeper infringes Law 12 if he touches the ball with his hands directly after it has been
deliberately kicked to him by a teammate. The requirement that the ball be kicked means only that it
has been played with the foot. The requirement that the ball be "kicked to" the goalkeeper means only
that the play is to or toward a place where the keeper can legally handle the ball. The requirement that
the ball be "deliberately kicked" means that the play on the ball is deliberate and does not include
situations in which the ball has been, in the opinion of the referee, accidentally deflected or
misdirected. The goalkeeper has infringed the Law if he handles the ball after initially playing the ball
in some other way (e.g., with his feet).
So if a player traps the ball with the foot and deliberately leaves it for the keeper, an infraction can be called. It is in the opinion of the referee if this occurred or not.

[IASocFan]

Originally posted by Statesman
For this judgement the shin is considered part of the foot.

I realize I'm not a high level referee, but I've never seen or heard this before. Any referee discussion or written instructions have used the terms foot or kick (which implies by the foot). The shin is NOT part of the foot, it's part of the leg. Do you have any sources for this assertion?

Any other experts on this issue?

THANKS!

[Statesman]

Jim Allen is the source of that information.

[Grizzlierbear]

Originally posted by Statesman
Jim Allen is the source of that information.

Is this USSF interpretation it is not elsewhere that I an aware of? I suppose we include the calf too? Is it to be mentioned in the newer ATR? That if a kicking motion is made we increase the foot size? LOL ;o)

[Statesman]

Player A kicks the ball back to the keeper with his foot.

Player B kicks the ball back to the keeper, but the ball strikes off his shin instead of his foot.

Common sense, guys. They are the same action.

[karps]

Jim Allen's answers to these questions carry the force of USSF interpretation.

In general, for the purposes of the pass back rule, a kick is a pass or play on the ball with the foot, which Jim Allen says is considered to be the area below the knee. Thigh traps, chests, headers, etc., are all non-kicks.

Statesman is spot on!

[jkc313]

Originally posted by Statesman
Jim Allen is the source of that information.

I doubt this. Since he basically wrote Advice, and Advice is quite clear that the ball deliberately be kicked with the foot. No mention of shin

[jkc313]

Originally posted by karps
Jim Allen's answers to these questions carry the force of USSF interpretation.

In general, for the purposes of the pass back rule, a kick is a pass or play on the ball with the foot, which Jim Allen says is considered to be the area below the knee. Thigh traps, chests, headers, etc., are all non-kicks.

Statesman is spot on!

Where has Jim Allen ever said the foot is considered to be anything below the knee? His Sept 14 answer says INADVERTENTLY kicks with the shin. Since when is deliberate spelled i-n-a-d-v-e-r-t-e-n-t-l-y?

[Statesman]

Why don't you ask him yourself, jkc?

[Crowdie]

Originally posted by IASocFan
I realize I'm not a high level referee, but I've never seen or heard this before. Any referee discussion or written instructions have used the terms foot or kick (which implies by the foot). The shin is NOT part of the foot, it's part of the leg. Do you have any sources for this assertion?

Any other experts on this issue?

THANKS!

In New Zealand we are taught that any part of the body below the knee is the same as the foot for the back pass rule.

Crowdie

[Ref Flunkie]

Hi folks,

New here, glad someone pointed me to these boards because I have always wanted to find a place to discuss these types of game issues. Here is my unprofessional view on things. As far as the shin issue, while with younger players it may be hard to assume the can intentionally play a ball from their shin to anywhere on the field, the end result is the same, they are delaying the game and/or taking away an attacking opportunity. So especially for older games, I would view the shin as the same as the foot.

Again I feel this is hard to determine because there has to be intent. Just like you don't call every ball that hits an arm, you can't call this everytime the ball hits the foot of a defender and goes to the GK. The advise on watching body language and listening if there is any communication between player and GK is a good one. In my opinion, the other thing I look at is did the infraction take away an attack opportunity by the offense. For example, I did a game where the defender was on the endline near the edge of the penalty area. They played the ball directly across the mouth of the goal, not in my opinion looking to play it directly to the GK. The GK picked up the ball and I whistled it for a passback because while the player was not looking at the keeper per se, they were playing it to where they knew the keeper was, and the keeper knew it had been played by their own team, yet still picked up the ball, removing any goal scoring opportunity by the offense. Perhaps I think about things too much, but this is my opinion on the rule. It's nice to be here too! :)

[jkc313]

Originally posted by Grizzlierbear
Is this USSF interpretation it is not elsewhere that I an aware of? I suppose we include the calf too? Is it to be mentioned in the newer ATR? That if a kicking motion is made we increase the foot size? LOL ;o)

Read Jim's answer at his site of Sept 14, I think. He NEVER says the shin is part of the foot. What he does say is that that a player could inadvertently use the shin and inadvertently is not deliberately. Perhaps people should contact Jim directly before citing him as a source