Why does France gets 3 teams in the CL?

[Makandal]

Considering how Le Championnat has been heading downward and how their clubs have been less successful on the international stage, year after year, why are they still awarded 3 spots in the CL? I can think of at least 2 other countries that could send better 3 teams to the CL.

[Cirdan]

The number of participants in Europe is determined by the UEFA country coefficiants (http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Ekassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2008.html). It's determined by how good the clubs do in CL and UC, and the French clubs generally do pretty good.

And who would you think is more worthy? Holland? Ajax didn't even manage to get into the group stage for years... Scotland? since when do they have a 3rd decent team? Portugal? They already have 3 teams in CL since 3 seasons, and they did worse than the French teams in that time (never had 2 teams in 2nd round, France did in 06/07). Russia? They never even got into the 2nd round of CL.

[BocaFan]

How random is this thread? :rolleyes:

Perhaps the Russian league is stronger now (or will be soon), but the teams have to prove it on the field. One more good year by Russian teams in Europe and they should pass France.

[Makandal]

The number of participants in Europe is determined by the UEFA country coefficiants (http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Ekassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2008.html). It's determined by how good the clubs do in CL and UC, and the French clubs generally do pretty good.

And who would you think is more worthy? Holland? Ajax didn't even manage to get into the group stage for years... Scotland? since when do they have a 3rd decent team? Portugal? They already have 3 teams in CL since 3 seasons, and they did worse than the French teams in that time (never had 2 teams in 2nd round, France did in 06/07). Russia? They never even got into the 2nd round of CL.

OK thanks, I knew it had something to do with how well they did at the 2 competitions, but I always thought they took into account only the last season, not the last 5 years. In which case, according to that table, France would have no business being awarded 3 spots in the CL next year.
As for the teams, I was thinking about, they were Scotland and Russia (which apparently will be rewarded 3 teams in 09/10).

[BocaFan]

OK thanks, I knew it had something to do with how well they did at the 2 competitions, but I always thought they took into account only the last season, not the last 5 years. In which case, according to that table, France would have no business being awarded 3 spots in the CL next year.
As for the teams, I was thinking about, they were Scotland and Russia (which apparently will be rewarded 3 teams in 09/10).

No, you're still reading the table wrong. Russia will be getting more teams in Europe next season because they moved up from 9th to 6th last season (there's a one-year lag). If they pass France this season, then they'll send 3 teams to the CL in 2010/11.

Edit: Nevermind, I thought you meant Russia and Scotland but you probably just meant Russia

[Makandal]

No, you're still reading the table wrong. Russia will be getting more teams in Europe next season because they moved up from 9th to 6th last season (there's a one-year lag). If they pass France this season, then they'll send 3 teams to the CL in 2010/11.

Scotland is in 10th and won't be sending 3 teams to the CL for a very long time, probably never.

Yes, that's how I read it. Now that I read my post, I can see that it was confusing. I was just saying that if they were based on a yearly basis (as I previously thought they were), France would not have 3 teams next year (09/10) and Scotland and Russia (the 2 leagues I think deserve the spots) would have 3 teams next year (09/10). ;)

[SportBoy333]

Its very possible Russia could surpass France BUT its looking like France will have a good year in Europe this year which would be enough to hold off the leagues right behind them for a little while longer. The French teams that are in Europe this year did not lose a lot of key players plus they added some more players so on paper its looking like France in Europe this year could bounce back from the last few disapointing seasons.

[BocaFan]

Right. But I guess both Russia and France will get 2 automatic CL spots and 1 qualifier in 2010/11 even if they flip-flop in the rankings. Correct? I was thinking moving up to 5th mattered, but now I'm not sure. I know UEFA tweaked the CL format/composition a bit (for example the top leagues will get 3 automatic spots beginning next year), but not sure how this affects the second-tier leagues. Anybody have a link for this?

[Cirdan]

From next year on, the 3rd placed team of the 6th in the rankings will have to play one qualification round more than the 3rd placed teams of the 5th and 6th, that's the only difference (meaning Russias 3rd will start in CL qualification round 2, Frances and Germanys 3rd will start in CL qualification round 3).

[cdmphy]

Germany will move significantly ahead of France next year unless they were to have another 03/04 disaster, which is doubtful.

And if Russia has another decent year, they could pass France as early as next year.

[Cirdan]

Germany will move significantly ahead of France next year unless they were to have another 03/04 disaster, which is doubtful.

Not that doubtful... Wolfsburg and probably Dortmund will be unseeded, and Hertha is not really a good team, they are all not unlikely to fail in the first round of the UEFA Cup, and then a lot would have to happen to even that out.

[BocaFan]

From next year on, the 3rd placed team of the 6th in the rankings will have to play one qualification round more than the 3rd placed teams of the 5th and 6th, that's the only difference (meaning Russias 3rd will start in CL qualification round 2, Frances and Germanys 3rd will start in CL qualification round 3).

Thanks. That could be key and I'll use this moment to point-out how stupid it is that clubs who lose in the second-round qualifiers of the CL don't parachute into the UEFA Cup.

Rangers are out of Europe despite winning the domestic cup double last season. Same thing almost happened to Basle. :rolleyes:

[SportBoy333]

Not that doubtful... Wolfsburg and probably Dortmund will be unseeded, and Hertha is not really a good team, they are all not unlikely to fail in the first round of the UEFA Cup, and then a lot would have to happen to even that out.

As for the Germany vs France arguement, I think we can agree that Bayren Munich will probably do better and go further than Olympique Lyon but as for the other 2 German teams in the CL vs the French teams, its probably a toss up as to who will do better. One advantage for France is that their 3rd place team(Marseille) drew a much weaker opponent in their qualifying match than Germany's 3rd(Schalke 04) did. So there's a much better chance of France getting 3 teams in the CL proper than there is for Germany getting their 3rd in.

As for the Uefa Cup I really dont know. Anything can happen there and its too early to predict since we dont know if any Champions League teams from those 2 leagues will come in which helps a lot. I do know that French teams have done poorly in the UEFA Cup the past few years and some dont even take it that seriously. I think maybe Bayren Munich is expected to carry the entire Bundesliga in Europe this year while maybe France isnt so relient on 1 team anymore ?

One thing is clear to me though is that French and German teams in Europe are indeed declining while other leagues like Russia and Turkey are catching up.

[BocaFan]

One thing is clear to me though is that French and German teams in Europe are indeed declining while other leagues like Russia and Turkey are catching up.

Russia, yes. Turkey, no. Fener had a good run last year, but that was the first time a Turkish club did anything in Europe for ages.

[SportBoy333]

Well I expect Fener this year to equal their run last year if not better it.

[Cirdan]

Thanks. That could be key and I'll use this moment to point-out how stupid it is that clubs who lose in the second-round qualifiers of the CL don't parachute into the UEFA Cup.

Rangers are out of Europe despite winning the domestic cup double last season. Same thing almost happened to Basle. :rolleyes:

Well... you are out of date, again ;)

The system will change, losers of the CL qualification round 2 will parachute into the UEFA Cup from next year on.

[Lusankya]

One thing is clear to me though is that French and German teams in Europe are indeed declining while other leagues like Russia and Turkey are catching up.
1. German teams aren't declining, they're rising.
2. Only Fenerbahce won't help Turkey if they have 5 or even 6 teams in european competitions.

I think maybe Bayren Munich is expected to carry the entire Bundesliga in Europe this year while maybe France isnt so relient on 1 team anymore ?

No, its the opposite for the Bundesliga. We rely on all! teams. For example last year we got 13.5 points. 4 teams got more points and 3 teams got less points. So it is an even distribution. We have many teams, which can compete in Europe. So Wolfsburg, like Nürnberg, can reach the group stage even as an unseeded newbie.


@NapoliSupporter: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Ekassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html)

[dor02]

Russia should get it soon. They're progressing whereas Lyon is the only decent French club in European competition. Not only that, for all of their history, French clubs have only won two trophies in European competitions (Marseille in the 1993 CL and PSG in the 1996 Cup Winners' Cup).

In recent times, Dutch clubs haven't been that great but at least they have a very good history in Europe. Ajax winning four European Cups/CL Finals should say a lot in itself.

[Cirdan]

Russia should get it soon. They're progressing whereas Lyon is the only decent French club in European competition. Not only that, for all of their history, French clubs have only won two trophies in European competitions (Marseille in the 1993 CL and PSG in the 1996 Cup Winners' Cup).

Sorry, but what is so impressing about the Russian Clubs? They haven't reached the CL 2nd round in years, while at least Lyon does annually, and Lille and Monaco also survived group stage not too long ago. OK, Zenit had a pretty impressing run last year, and CSKA won the UEFA Cup 5 years ago, but with those 2 exceptions, the Russians didn't much better in the UEFA Cup either. With the sole exception of the last season, the huge majority of the French clubs survived the UEFA Cup group stage, while the Russians never had more than 2 of 4 teams playing UEFA Cup in spring.

Russian club football is growing better without a doubt, and they deserve more than 4 teams in the competitions, but ahead of France? No chance. I'm pretty sure as soon as the have as many teams as France in CL and UEFA Cup, France will put a distance to them again.

[dor02]

For those two trophies in last four years and the league's increasing strength, the Russians should get it soon. Hopefully a Russian team can make it past the group stage this time. French clubs haven't won anything since '96 and they usually struggle at the final hurdle. If Russia doesn't get it soon, UEFA should give it to Holland. French clubs don't deserve three CL spots. Since '04, has any French side bar Lyon made it out of the group stage?