WHy the doom and gloom about the coming season?

[DaPrince84]

Sure is a big change from Wengers 'add 2-3 quality players' and 'keep the squad together' statements, isnt it?
we did add Nasri, Vela, Merida has returned from his loan spell also... plus Ramsey...

[generals soccer]

Wenger's idea of 2-3 quality players is far different than people on BS's idea of 2-3 quality players.

[rslgoonermassacre]

As a brand new member I was hoping to find "fans" in this forum. Fan's IMO believe in their club no matter what. Even after Henry left and the injuries took over I still believed we were going to win the CL and the Prem. When it didn't happen I was sad, but then I thought, "can't wait for next year, this team is going to be FUN to watch because of so many unknowns and unproven players."
At least this team has won silverware recently. Try supporting the Utah Jazz in the NBA, perennially bridesmaids but never the bride.

I'm a gooner through and through and I BELIEVE!!

[Martin Daoust]

we did add Nasri, Vela, Merida has returned from his loan spell also... plus Ramsey...

I think the point is quality players in the here and now - of that we aren't usre. I think the idea is to add a Sol Campbell or Gilberto qulaity player now not some "in two or three years..." players.

The problem with focusing on those players is perpetual transition - just as the second group of players comes of age the first group of such players is broken up - or how Mr. Wenger always says keeping the team together is always first priority when was the last time we did that? After the 2003 season really...

Every pro sports team always experiences some transition, but Arsenal has experienced a hiuge amount of transition form the Invincibles to the next generation(once referred to as the Invisbles in a newspaper article). The problem is now we are still experiencing an awful lot of transition in a very short time as opposed to say from 2000 to 2003 or even to 2005, and that transition can stunt our progress regulalrly. We need to build a team the way we did from 1999-2001 - with everyone on the same or similar development curve, and we need to keep the team together not sacrifice it to the wage structure, or how can we build the team we all hope to see again at Arsenal losing key players every time we get close Two steps forward, at least two steps back...

[DoctorK]

I'm kinda boggled at the day-in-day-out doom-n-gloom. What fun is there in that? And it's completely in the face of all the promise our Young Guns have as we head into the new season. This we-must-buy-our-way-back-to-trophies nonsense isn't very sporting, imho, nor is it practical. And I wonder if those who are so demanding, so suspicious, so jaded, so negative, I wonder how much sport they play or have played and how long they've followed this Club.

This is a truly wonderful time to be a Gooner. Absolutely brilliant. If you're new to following sport then take the time to read Hornby's Fever Pitch. That'll teach you something about what it means to be a supporter.

I'm not saying being a supporter means blind faith and absolute optimism. Doesn't have to. But I'll take that any day over the negative harping on and on in the face of the reality that we have one of the world's greatest teams to cheer this year, with every chance of earning silverware.

[generals soccer]

I think the point is quality players in the here and now - of that we aren't usre. I think the idea is to add a Sol Campbell or Gilberto qulaity player now not some "in two or three years..." players.

The problem with focusing on those players is perpetual transition - just as the second group of players comes of age the first group of such players is broken up - or how Mr. Wenger always says keeping the team together is always first priority when was the last time we did that? After the 2003 season really...


Wenger adds the players he wants to add. Which player that left could we have kept? Gilberto is the only one I can think of that we could have kept and Le Boss was fine shipping him off. The problems with your arguments are they are based off your thoughts, not what Wenger is going to do. And yes I realize this is a message board to share your thoughts. It is like saying David Villa would be a great signing while realizing Wenger would not sign him.


Every pro sports team always experiences some transition, but Arsenal has experienced a hiuge amount of transition form the Invincibles to the next generation(once referred to as the Invisbles in a newspaper article). The problem is now we are still experiencing an awful lot of transition in a very short time as opposed to say from 2000 to 2003 or even to 2005, and that transition can stunt our progress regulalrly. We need to build a team the way we did from 1999-2001 - with everyone on the same or similar development curve, and we need to keep the team together not sacrifice it to the wage structure, or how can we build the team we all hope to see again at Arsenal losing key players every time we get close Two steps forward, at least two steps back...

I agree but ultimately the clubs control over players who want to leave is limited in many cases.

[Martin Daoust]

I'm kinda boggled at the day-in-day-out doom-n-gloom. What fun is there in that? And it's completely in the face of all the promise our Young Guns have as we head into the new season. This we-must-buy-our-way-back-to-trophies nonsense isn't very sporting, imho, nor is it practical. And I wonder if those who are so demanding, so suspicious, so jaded, so negative, I wonder how much sport they play or have played and how long they've followed this Club.

This is a truly wonderful time to be a Gooner. Absolutely brilliant. If you're new to following sport then take the time to read Hornby's Fever Pitch. That'll teach you something about what it means to be a supporter.

I'm not saying being a supporter means blind faith and absolute optimism. Doesn't have to. But I'll take that any day over the negative harping on and on in the face of the reality that we have one of the world's greatest teams to cheer this year, with every chance of earning silverware.

See I think we have blind faith and absolute optimism - or should - once the season starts. See once that happens especially when the transfer window closes then its all about the team until the next transfer window, which no matter how good your team is or isn'tt how many players or need or don't need, is the next time you can do anything but get behind the team out there. Actually I never understood the week-to-week rating and slating of players because of this. I mean once the windows close - that's it for better or worse that's the team and that's the team you need to get behind and stay behind until the next window.

If I didn't know any better I'd say some people enjoy compalining for nine months of the year when we're playing more than addressing the teams need realistically the other three so we aren't having to grumble as much all year long...I mean once the season starts and once each window closes that's my team no matter and I will never be anything but absolutely 100% behind them every match...no matter what I may think in a critical sense -that's for the transfer windows really. Do I slate players during the season? Sure. But not nearly as much as LOT of Gooners including Gooners who think there's too much gloom and doom here in the summer. Wait til we draw(if we do draw instead of winning) against say Boro or Newcastle or Fulham at the Emirates next year...

[DoctorK]

Wait til we draw(if we do draw instead of winning) against say Boro or Newcastle or Fulham at the Emirates next year...

And then what? You get to say "I told you so"? Geez Louise... You're already setting up for the grief, like you want it to happen.

[Martin Daoust]

Wenger adds the players he wants to add. Which player that left could we have kept? Gilberto is the only one I can think of that we could have kept and Le Boss was fine shipping him off. The problems with your arguments are they are based off your thoughts, not what Wenger is going to do. And yes I realize this is a message board to share your thoughts. It is like saying David Villa would be a great signing while realizing Wenger would not sign him.



I agree but ultimately the clubs control over players who want to leave is limited in many cases.

The problem is the only real limit is the one the club is setting through the wage structure.

The thing is if you are going to have such a wage structure you need to bering in players ready to do the business NOW not in 2-3 years or you're always chasing the pack, even from third or fourth place. Of course the wage structure precludes that too.

So we are looking at a situation where the club's wage structure threatens to hold us back indefinitely as a result. Like I say maybe abck in the late 70s or even before Mr. Wenger took over and achieved what he did from 1998-2004, top three or four with the occasional League Championship was fine as an expectation or a standard for success. It shouldn't be now, not after 1998-2004.

[DougG_ATL]

And draws happen. The Invincibles had more stalemates in 03-04 than in any campaign since and won the Premiership.

Edited: AND...among those 12 draws: ManUre (x2), Charlton Athletic, Pompey (x2), Leicester City, Fulham, Bolton, Everton, Newcastle, Scum, and Birmingham City.

[generals soccer]

The problem is the only real limit is the one the club is setting through the wage structure.

The thing is if you are going to have such a wage structure you need to bering in players ready to do the business NOW not in 2-3 years or you're always chasing the pack, even from third or fourth place. Of course the wage structure precludes that too.


What players do you have in mind? Who would your bring in and who would they replace? I have a hard time taking anyone out of the starting line-up except maybe a CM spot.

[Martin Daoust]

And then what? You get to say "I told you so"? Geez Louise... You're already setting up for the grief, like you want it to happen.

No I'm not - I'm pointing out when was the last time it didn't happen. I bet I can even find thoise regular complaints about this player or that player in the Invincibles run to Unbeaten Premiership Glory.

My point was why do supporters have no problem spending nine months slating the players when absolutely nothing can be done to ease your dissatisfaction with them(that may not apply to you specifically Doctor K but you know it happens on every football board for every team)until the two transfer windows, then don't want to hear any criticism of how the Club - the Board and /or the Manager address the weaknesses you just complained about the last nine months during that time?

I'd rather complain for three months when the complaints can be addressed then as you say get behind the team and and enjoy the other nine months as much as possible when they can't.

[DoctorK]

Cesc gets it, if others don't:

"We sign what we need," he said. "Sometimes teams pay a fortune for a player with experience, who knows how to win, who at key moments can win you a game - and that's important. But at Arsenal there's a different policy and we have to respect that.

"The day we win something with these players, with this policy, this atmosphere and style, there will be a big change - almost a revelation."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/jul/31/arsenal?gusrc=rss&feed=football

Why can't you respect that, Martin? I'm asking this rhetorically...

[DoctorK]

I'd rather complain for three months when the complaints can be addressed then as you say get behind the team and and enjoy the other nine months as much as possible when they can't.

It is as if you've assumed the role of complainer as a full-time summer job! Meanwhile you're oblivious to the tremendous displays of talent the rest of us have seen thus far this pre-season. And you'll still carry on with your suspicions about the Board, when the ones to worry about are Fat & Orange.

Do I expect us to win the League? I expect us to fight for it and that's all anyone can reasonably expect, even if you support any of the other sides. I don't want this club to behave like Chelski, Real or Barca. I find their approach to sport tacky and vulgar. I'm deeply proud of the way Wenger goes about things on and off the pitch and think all Gooners should be pleased and excited about the upcoming season.

[Martin Daoust]

What players do you have in mind? Who would your bring in and who would they replace? I have a hard time taking anyone out of the starting line-up except maybe a CM spot.

I'm not sure about specific players because there are lots of variables involved so I'd have to look closely at the positions I'd like to fill and the players availble for them.

Right now I agree, a central mid-field partner for Cesc is essential. I was never a huge Flamini man, or didn't rate him but his performance with Cesc last year suggests we can't just count on Diaby or Eboue or Denilson or Djourou or Song to step in in do the job sufficiently and we can't risk everything hoping they can.

I also believe we saw down te stretch but particularly in the Anfield Champions League Leg we absolutely need another central defender - Senderos is good enough for fourth choice at-best(I can't believe he couldn't track Sami Hyppia - I could track that bloke, and I'm slower than molasses)Song could well develop into a quality central defender but right now we need a quality central defender now to cover for Kolo or Gallas or to play with either of them.

I also would still like one more quality striker - if only because we know Eduardo is out and Robin is well Robin and will miss his share of matches. And I want to be able to play Vela and Theo wide if we are going to play 4-4-2 as opposed to Diaby and Eboue. Nasri will play some out wide certainly as well, but until and if Rosicky comes back we need more goal threat from both wide positions and with Theo and Vela we've got it, so I think another striker would strengthen the team immensely in terms of depth and options...

And if we add these players Eboue can be Sagna's back-up as wellas depth on the right wing ensuring we are even deeper then.

[DaPrince84]

Wenger said he will sign one more player after the game yesterday... Barry? Alonso? Veloso? Pascal Cygan?

[generals soccer]

Starting Line-up 2008-09

---------Alumnia
Sagna-Toure-Gallas-Clichy
Theo-Cesc-CM-Nasri
--------RVP-Ade

Subs
Defense
Song *Olympics will mean he is late to report
Senderos
Johann
Eboue
J. Hoyte

Midfield
Diaby
Denilson
Ramsey
Rosicky *Recovering from injury
Bischoff *Recovering from injury
Traore

Forwards
Vela
Eduardo *Recovering from injury
Bendtner

That is a squad of 24 field players assuming a new CM is brought in. You really have to start selling then to add new players.

[rslgoonermassacre]

It is as if you've assumed the role of complainer as a full-time summer job! Meanwhile you're oblivious to the tremendous displays of talent the rest of us have seen thus far this pre-season. And you'll still carry on with your suspicions about the Board, when the ones to worry about are Fat & Orange.

Do I expect us to win the League? I expect us to fight for it and that's all anyone can reasonably expect, even if you support any of the other sides. I don't want this club to behave like Chelski, Real or Barca. I find their approach to sport tacky and vulgar. I'm deeply proud of the way Wenger goes about things on and off the pitch and think all Gooners should be pleased and excited about the upcoming season.

Agree completely, well said Doctor!

[Martin Daoust]

Cesc gets it, if others don't:

"We sign what we need," he said. "Sometimes teams pay a fortune for a player with experience, who knows how to win, who at key moments can win you a game - and that's important. But at Arsenal there's a different policy and we have to respect that.

"The day we win something with these players, with this policy, this atmosphere and style, there will be a big change - almost a revelation."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/jul/31/arsenal?gusrc=rss&feed=football

Why can't you respect that, Martin? I'm asking this rhetorically...

Maybe because it doesn't jive with what we did from 1998-2004. We had a different transfer policy then - a different spending policy then.

Obviously the move to the Emirates forced changes in that policies and adjustments to be made, though no one at the club will actually acknowledge this. Add to that the reasoning behind moving to the Emirates was not to have to build a team this way, and with the money we are now making we could adjust our policy some and be more successful now without bankrupting the club. The money is there to go back to the transfer policy of 1998-2004, especially now that we don't need to buy as many of those players as we did then. Staying the course only raises those questions that REALLY upset eveyone here

Remember we just came off three Premiership Championships and four FA Cups and two League and Cup Doubles and an Unbeaten League Championship from 1998-2005. You cannot say supporters should be prepared to accept going back to a League Championship every decade or two, and you cannot ignore these achievements in assessing what the standards for success at Arsenal should be right now.

And as commendable as Cesc's comments are, they will become harder and harder for him to back up or even believe the longer we go without trophies. Cesc has an out - he has several of Europe's biggest clubs eager to sign him if we continue to fall short. You and I don't have that back-up. We're Arsenal and that's that, and that's how it ought to be.

but that doesn't make it acceptable for the club to invest less in the team to make more money - especially when that could ultimately cast a pall on the career of Arsene Wenger, who clearly would have been our greatest Manager ever already if not for the back sliding of 2006-2008. As much as we do, Arsene Wenger deserves better than for this to be allowed to go on...You may think differently yourself as early as next year or in a few years if this continues. For all our sakes lets hope it doesn't, but for all our sakes lets not assume it won't either right now...

[Martin Daoust]

It is as if you've assumed the role of complainer as a full-time summer job! Meanwhile you're oblivious to the tremendous displays of talent the rest of us have seen thus far this pre-season. And you'll still carry on with your suspicions about the Board, when the ones to worry about are Fat & Orange.

Do I expect us to win the League? I expect us to fight for it and that's all anyone can reasonably expect, even if you support any of the other sides. I don't want this club to behave like Chelski, Real or Barca. I find their approach to sport tacky and vulgar. I'm deeply proud of the way Wenger goes about things on and off the pitch and think all Gooners should be pleased and excited about the upcoming season.

So then why did we build the new ground - and it wasn't to let more Gooners see the team for less money obviously? So what exactly do we need all that extra money for since you don't think we should use it for the one reason a football club would? Why did we build the new ground if we don't need the money to spend on the football team, and it hasn't made it easier for most Gooners to be able to afford to support Arsenal in-person? What other reason could there be......