(R) VfB Stuttgart Thread 08/09

[footyfan1]

I know you have a big ol' smiley face next to your post, but are all the Stuttgart fans from Heidelberg (only 41 minutes away by train) jokes because they became fans in, for example, 83/84 or 91/92? Glory hunters?


Man, if people became fans of ours in 1984 and have since remained loyal fans over the course of the last 24(!!!!) years, then quite obviously they are anything BUT gloryhunters. So, i'm sorry, but it was a really silly point really.


I think "Hobo" had a great point and he should have added 2007 to it.

Don't tell me you haven't noticed people who jumped on your bandwagon in 2007?

From what I saw, "Hobo" asked you about the Stuttgart fans who became Stuttgart fans in past title seasons and if they are "open, crazy, glory hunters" too.

Again, I thought he had a great point.

You only answered part of his question to make what he said look like there was no point.

What he was asking you is this. Are they "open, crazy, glory hunters" or "jokes" because of when they jumped on the Stuttgart bandwagon.

How is that not a valid question?

That they remained on the bandwagon had nothing to do with what he asked you. But that's how you chose to respond to try to make his question seem pointless.

Let me ask you this.

What of the people who live closer to Hoffenheim than Stuttgart who have decided to switch to Hoffenheim because they now have their own 1st Bundesliga team closer to them than Stuttgart, Kaiserslautern, Frankfurt, Mainz, Dortmund or even Karlsruhe?

Are they all "open, crazy, glory hunters" or "jokes" too??

I know a few in that area who supported BVB, but switched to TSG once they were promoted because they now have a local team.

I'm not mad at them I won't be mad at them nor will I talk unnecessary shit about them.

Hell, I'm hoping they can get me tickets sometime to check out their new stadium when it is done to continue my Bundesliga ground hopping.

Like them or hate them, right now, Hoffenheim deserves all the attention they are getting.

Shit man, if I didn't know you better, I'd say you have a slight case of envy........ :rolleyes:

[panicfc]

Keith, excellent post.

I think a lot of clubs should be envious of what Hoffenheim has done, in a relatively short amount of time.

PS - I nearly jumped on that Stuttgart bandwagon ;)

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

[QUOTE]Don't tell me you haven't noticed people who jumped on your bandwagon in 2007?

Hmm, i'm thinking this over and i'm honestly not sure. I guess there must have been, but I didn't really notice it. I don't recall anyone who used to not care about Stuttgart suddenly loving them. I'd say it was more a case of easy-going VfB fans, you know the kind who are fans but don't follow the club day in, day out, suddenly seemed to care a lot more. But I don't think there were people who just didn't give a shit about the team suddenly being into them, and certainly not people who hadn't heard of the side only 12 months previously. Maybe in other parts of Germany. But in Stuttgart 95% of football fans here support VfB anyway so its hard for me to judge.


From what I saw, "Hobo" asked you about the Stuttgart fans who became Stuttgart fans in past title seasons and if they are "open, crazy, glory hunters" too.


Again, I thought he had a great point.

You only answered part of his question to make what he said look like there was no point.

What he was asking you is this. Are they "open, crazy, glory hunters" or "jokes" because of when they jumped on the Stuttgart bandwagon.

How is that not a valid question?

It was a valid question, just in my opinion a silly one. And I answered: if they really started supporting the team in the title years because of the title, but have remained fans ever since, despite the many mediocre seasons that cloud us in between the great seaons we have, then obviously they aren't gloryhunters.

But it's different i'd say since Stuttgart has always been the most popular side in the region, and people who have supported KSC have remained KSC fans, people who support Freiburg remain SCF fans. The idea of a team springing out of nowhere in the region is a completely new phenomenon and no I don't think it's occurred to such an extent to any other side.

Maybe with Bayern. But then again they too haven't had such an enormous shift in popularity at any particular time.

hoffenheim have gone from a club that had 5000 averages 2 seasons ago to a club who now suddenly have like 50 000 'devoted' fans. and that is why I thought th equestion was silly. No way you can compare sides that have always been around and have had little fan fluctuations in good and bad times, to this! It's a completely different level.


What of the people who live closer to Hoffenheim than Stuttgart who have decided to switch to Hoffenheim because they now have their own 1st Bundesliga team closer to them than Stuttgart, Kaiserslautern, Frankfurt, Mainz, Dortmund or even Karlsruhe?
Are they all "open, crazy, glory hunters" or "jokes" too??

Well, I don't know many fans who would switch for a reason like that. If you had no favourite club but liked football, fair enough. But if you actually supported any of the above mentioned teams and now suddenly you support Hoffenheim, then yeah, that does make you an enormous open crazy joke gloryhunter in my book. Definitely. If anyone was passionate or called themselves passionate about a side then suddenly switched out the blue, I don't know how else you can describe it.


I know a few in that area who supported BVB, but switched to TSG once they were promoted because they now have a local team.

I'm not mad at them I won't be mad at them nor will I talk unnecessary shit about them.

I wouldn't get mad either.
But I have no problem pulling jokes at them and criticizing them as that just isn't a true fan of a club in my opinion.

We just look at this a different way.

Because I definitely would feel free to talk shit about actions like that that I frankly consider to be really really vein and thin-skinned.
Hell, I'm hoping they can get me tickets sometime to check out their new stadium when it is done to continue my Bundesliga ground hopping.

Like them or hate them, right now, Hoffenheim deserves all the attention they are getting.

For sure. Who said they didn't? Doesn't change my view of their news 'fans'.


Shit man, if I didn't know you better, I'd say you have a slight case of envy........ :rolleyes:

Good thing you know me then, as that obviously isn't true.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

Keith, excellent post.

I think a lot of clubs should be envious of what Hoffenheim has done, in a relatively short amount of time.

PS - I nearly jumped on that Stuttgart bandwagon ;)


Ok, I finish writing to Keith and you bring up the envy factor as well.


Clubs and managements may well be envious of Hoffenheim. But should fans be envious of Hoffenheim? I certainly don't think so.

[panicfc]

Ok, I finish writing to Keith and you bring up the envy factor as well.


Clubs and managements may well be envious of Hoffenheim. But should fans be envious of Hoffenheim? I certainly don't think so.


Hey my post was above yours ;)

Fan envy- well some fans might be envious of another club rising so quickly, while they have suffered...Cottbus, Gladbach, Rostock, even Köln.

As for the fans jumping on, lets see how they do over time. Let them enjoy their success, and see how long it lasts. Heck if you joined the bandwagon back in 2000, you probably have rarely seen that team lose, no matter what division. That's pretty crazy.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

Hey my post was above yours ;)

right - I didn't mean to sound whiny, sorry about that ;)

[panicfc]

No whiny. Good stuff.

[footyfan1]

Hey my post was above yours ;)

Fan envy- well some fans might be envious of another club rising so quickly, while they have suffered...Cottbus, Gladbach, Rostock, even Köln.

As for the fans jumping on, lets see how they do over time. Let them enjoy their success, and see how long it lasts. Heck if you joined the bandwagon back in 2000, you probably have rarely seen that team lose, no matter what division. That's pretty crazy.


Good posts from both you guys. I hope to get back to it later!!!

[Rainer24]

Stuttgart was, is, and shall continue to be primarily supported by Swabians and/or people who have living in or near Stuttgart. I have never noticed that the results have had much to do with it.

[footyfan1]

Stuttgart was, is, and shall continue to be primarily supported by Swabians and/or people who have living in or near Stuttgart. I have never noticed that the results have had much to do with it.

Good comment, but it has nothing to do with what was being discussed. No one argued Stuttgart's primary support base.

The discussion was about the fans in the Rhein-Neckar area who are now supporting Hoffenheim and VfBStuttgartFan's comments about them.

[footyfan1]

Hmm, i'm thinking this over (Stuttgart bandwagon jumpers from 2007) and i'm honestly not sure. I guess there must have been, but I didn't really notice it. I don't recall anyone who used to not care about Stuttgart suddenly loving them. I'd say it was more a case of easy-going VfB fans, you know the kind who are fans but don't follow the club day in, day out, suddenly seemed to care a lot more. But I don't think there were people who just didn't give a shit about the team suddenly being into them, and certainly not people who hadn't heard of the side only 12 months previously. Maybe in other parts of Germany. But in Stuttgart 95% of football fans here support VfB anyway so its hard for me to judge.

Trust me, both you and FCN got people who claim to be fans after 2007. Although many of FCN's have jumped off the bandwagon already. :D



It was a valid question, just in my opinion a silly one. And I answered: if they really started supporting the team in the title years because of the title, but have remained fans ever since, despite the many mediocre seasons that cloud us in between the great seaons we have, then obviously they aren't gloryhunters.

And there you go again. Answering only part of the question to fit your point of view.

That's not what "Hobo" asked you nor what I asked you. Shit, I know there are fans BVB has from 1997 who still follow the club and that's great. They proved themselves. But back in 1997, they were f#cking glory-hunters.

I've been a BVB fan since 92/93 and I still have to hear bullshit from those who don't know me well and think I just jumped on during the '97 rush.

"Hobo" was asking you that if in your eyes, the people who jumped on Stuttgart's bandwagon during title years were "open, crazy, glory hunters" too.

What they are now has nothing to do with that question. Were they considered "open, crazy, glory hunters" when they first jumped on the bandwagon?

That's the part you refuse to answer.


But it's different i'd say since Stuttgart has always been the most popular side in the region, and people who have supported KSC have remained KSC fans, people who support Freiburg remain SCF fans. The idea of a team springing out of nowhere in the region is a completely new phenomenon and no I don't think it's occurred to such an extent to any other side.

Actually, from my time living in and visiting the Rhein-Neckar region, I usually found that the further you got away from Stuttgart, the more Kaiserslautern, Bayern, Dortmund and Frankfurt fans you would find.

If you are talking about the area immediately around Stuttgart, northeast as far as Heilbronn, southeast as far as Ulm, and west as far as Karlsruhe, then yes, I agree.

There is a crapload of Stuttgart fans in the Heidelberg/Mannheim area too, but when I lived there, I found them to be far outnumbered by fans of Bayern, Dortmund and Kaiserslautern. Then you had your other fans of clubs like Bremen, Frankfurt and HSV.

These are the people I write about when I say many were just longing for a team of their own and switched to Hoffenheim.

When we had arguments on other threads about Hoffenheim's viability before this season, these are the fans I constantly pointed to. Many thought I was full of shit, but they see these people now.

Man, these people didn't come out of nowhere nor is it any huge surprise. At least not to me. I didn't think they would be doing as well as they are or would sell out as quickly as they have, but I knew they'd get support and I said so.


Maybe with Bayern. But then again they too haven't had such an enormous shift in popularity at any particular time.

The two closest things I can think of it was when Bayer really started to put money into the Leverkusen club and 1. FC Köln, Borussia Mönchengladbach, Fortuna Düsseldorf and to a certain extent, Borussia Dortmund and Schalke 04 all losing some fans.

The other one and more recent was how many fans FCN lost after the merger between SpVgg Fürth and TSV Vestenbergsgreuth to form SpVgg Greuther Fürth.

Of course, neither one of them is on the scale or the pace of TSG Hoffenheim.


hoffenheim have gone from a club that had 5000 averages 2 seasons ago to a club who now suddenly have like 50 000 'devoted' fans. and that is why I thought th equestion was silly. No way you can compare sides that have always been around and have had little fan fluctuations in good and bad times, to this! It's a completely different level.


Who said all of their fans are "devoted?" I know better than to think all of my club's fans are "devoted." If they were, we'd have 80,000 for every match. I know all of your club's fans aren't "devoted."

This is certainly something we haven't seen before. How about giving it a shot instead of attacking straight away?

But then again, that is easier for me. It isn't my club's turf they are taking over. Now I know how Bochum fans must have felt in 1904 when Schalke was formed and how Schalke fans must have felt back in 1909 when Borussia Dortmund was founded.

This is the same thing, just in our times. Of course it is going to be different.



Well, I don't know many fans who would switch for a reason like that. If you had no favourite club but liked football, fair enough. But if you actually supported any of the above mentioned teams and now suddenly you support Hoffenheim, then yeah, that does make you an enormous open crazy joke gloryhunter in my book. Definitely. If anyone was passionate or called themselves passionate about a side then suddenly switched out the blue, I don't know how else you can describe it.

Now you're being just completely blind. It's the same reason FCN lost fans then Greuther Fürth was formed. Some people decided to support their own local team.

Again, I said well before this season started that people in the Rhein-Neckar area would embrace that club.

Just because you didn't want to believe that and now you see it is true, it has to be somehow "wrong?"



I wouldn't get mad either.
But I have no problem pulling jokes at them and criticizing them as that just isn't a true fan of a club in my opinion.

Really? And who gave you the authority to decide what a "true fan of a club" is???

What?? People can't support new clubs if they wish to?

People can't change their minds on what clubs they want to support?

If someone changes their mind on what club to support because the club they support is a loser and and they just want to support a winner, those are the people I have problems with.

My best example for those would be some former Bochum fans I know who jumped on BVB's bandwagon back in 2002.

But hey, they must be cool because it's 2007 and they're still supporting BVB! LOL!!!

If someone decides to support a local club that has finally found some success, no, I don't have a problem with that.

Who wrote the law that says anyone who supports a newly successful club isn't a "true fan?"

Who wrote the f#cking law that says anyone who switches to a local club isn't a "true fan?"

After reading this stuff, I think you're like Uli Hoeness. You see a threat growing in what was your backyard and you saw fit to attack it.



We just look at this a different way.

No shit? :D





Good thing you know me then, as that obviously isn't true.


No. You aren't envious. But you do come across as bitter and possibly a bit worried about losing your status in the area.

I know, I'm crazy and out of line, but I'm telling you what I see in your words.

[benztown]

I think the fundamental problem of this debat is a difference in definitions.

First of all, it seems to me as if Vfbstuttgartfan is talking about people in or directly around Stuttgart, while footyfan talks about those in the Rhein-Neckar region.

Secondly, I think nobody doubts that Hoffenheim draw their fans mostly from the Rhein-Neckar region. But now comes the difinition of "fan". It is very likely that those newly recruited Hoffenheim fans were rooting for one team or another before, but they probably hardly ever went to the stadium, sang the team's songs or wore their jerseys with pride. They were more likely sitting in front of the "Sportschau" each weekend, pulling for the team they felt most connected to, but they still weren't passionate about it.
Were they real fans? I don't know, but I can definitely see that one could have different opionons about it.

Anyway, now they have their local team to support and of course there's an immediate connection and they're proud that their region finally has a BL side again. And there's nothing wrong with it.

If however a new Hoffenheim fan was really passionate about another team before, then this would be strange indeed. Either he was lying, deluding himself, or he's a bandwagon fan.




Well anyway, now I want to add my view on Hoffenheim. Unlike some others, I don't hate them. In fact, I even somewhat like them. I think it's good that our region got another BL side and I'm happy for them that they're successful. They're doing a tremendeous job and I applaud them for it. Now I'm not a fan or anything like that, but credit where credit is due.
And as I said, I'm happy for every Bundesliga team from Baden-Württemberg (except KSC, but that's another story :p). It brings in more competition and that's always a good thing and I think ultimately, Stuttgart will benefit from having another derby.

So there are my 2 cents...

[Rainer24]

Good comment, but it has nothing to do with what was being discussed. No one argued Stuttgart's primary support base.

The discussion was about the fans in the Rhein-Neckar area who are now supporting Hoffenheim and VfBStuttgartFan's comments about them.


My point is that Württemberg pretty much = Schwaben (There is also that bit in Bayern, but I suspect large numbers of them supporting FCB, so I prefer to ignore their existence), as in most everyone on the Eastern side of the Black Forest is a VfB fan, with a possible exception being Ulm, who have had some success at times. West of the Black Forest, i.e. Baden is split between Karlsruhe and Freiburg fans. That little corner up where Hoffenheim is is a whole other ballgame. Historically and culturally that area with Mannheim-Heidelberg-Heilbronn (Ludwigshafen is definitely part of that population center, but I wouldn't include it in the list because it is actually part of the Palatinate, but there isn't really a team there either, so I could see them becoming Hoffenheimers as well) has more to do with the Pfalz than either Schwaben or Baden, so there have been some 1. FCK fans due to the cultural connection, but it has largely been up for grabs. It doesn't bother me at all if people in that Kurpfalz area finally feel like they have a team to root for. They tried to make Waldhof that team, but they always did something to screw themselves over and it never happened. It also doesn't really bother me if some people in the Stuttgart area want to pull for them. I would imagine those people are mostly imports and have only previously had a mild interest in the game. If they want to go that way, whatever. You can only fit so many butts into the Benz, and it is generally pretty full, so no skin off my back.

[footyfan1]

I think the fundamental problem of this debat is a difference in definitions.

First of all, it seems to me as if Vfbstuttgartfan is talking about people in or directly around Stuttgart, while footyfan talks about those in the Rhein-Neckar region.

I think you're right there. That is why in my last response, I laid out where I believe Stuttgart still easily has the vast majority of the fan base. And those aren't the only places. Hoffenheim still only has a fraction.

But that may grow as they grow.......



Secondly, I think nobody doubts that Hoffenheim draw their fans mostly from the Rhein-Neckar region. But now comes the difinition of "fan". It is very likely that those newly recruited Hoffenheim fans were rooting for one team or another before, but they probably hardly ever went to the stadium, sang the team's songs or wore their jerseys with pride. They were more likely sitting in front of the "Sportschau" each weekend, pulling for the team they felt most connected to, but they still weren't passionate about it.

Exactly. Except those who support/supported the "area" teams, Stuttgart, FCK and KSC. On Saturdays, the trains are full of those people heading to Stuttgart, Kaiserslautern and Karlsruhe.

While I lived there, I took somewhere between 35-45 BVB "distant fans" to their first matches at the Westfalenstadion. Some of them still go and others now support TSG.


Were they real fans? I don't know, but I can definitely see that one could have different opionons about it.

Of course, but you also need to see that one person can't define what a "real fan" truly is.


Anyway, now they have their local team to support and of course there's an immediate connection and they're proud that their region finally has a BL side again. And there's nothing wrong with it.

Yes. I'm betting most of people they get at their matches are former Waldhof Mannheim and FCK fans.

If however a new Hoffenheim fan was really passionate about another team before, then this would be strange indeed. Either he was lying, deluding himself, or he's a bandwagon fan.

That part I agree with, but I'm betting that like my friends, most of them were "distant fans" of another team. The passionate FCK, KSC, VfB, and Eintracht fans are still with that club.

I think some people don't get just how many people live in the Rhein-Neckar area.


Well anyway, now I want to add my view on Hoffenheim. Unlike some others, I don't hate them. In fact, I even somewhat like them. I think it's good that our region got another BL side and I'm happy for them that they're successful. They're doing a tremendeous job and I applaud them for it. Now I'm not a fan or anything like that, but credit where credit is due.

And as I said, I'm happy for every Bundesliga team from Baden-Württemberg (except KSC, but that's another story :p). It brings in more competition and that's always a good thing and I think ultimately, Stuttgart will benefit from having another derby.

So there are my 2 cents...


You and I have the same point of view there. Credit where credit is due........

[footyfan1]

My point is that Württemberg pretty much = Schwaben (There is also that bit in Bayern, but I suspect large numbers of them supporting FCB, so I prefer to ignore their existence), as in most everyone on the Eastern side of the Black Forest is a VfB fan, with a possible exception being Ulm, who have had some success at times. West of the Black Forest, i.e. Baden is split between Karlsruhe and Freiburg fans. That little corner up where Hoffenheim is is a whole other ballgame. Historically and culturally that area with Mannheim-Heidelberg-Heilbronn (Ludwigshafen is definitely part of that population center, but I wouldn't include it in the list because it is actually part of the Palatinate, but there isn't really a team there either, so I could see them becoming Hoffenheimers as well) has more to do with the Pfalz than either Schwaben or Baden, so there have been some 1. FCK fans due to the cultural connection, but it has largely been up for grabs. It doesn't bother me at all if people in that Kurpfalz area finally feel like they have a team to root for. They tried to make Waldhof that team, but they always did something to screw themselves over and it never happened. It also doesn't really bother me if some people in the Stuttgart area want to pull for them. I would imagine those people are mostly imports and have only previously had a mild interest in the game. If they want to go that way, whatever. You can only fit so many butts into the Benz, and it is generally pretty full, so no skin off my back.

Generally pretty full? I believe they've sold out every match.

I know the Carl-Benz Stadion only holds just over 26,000, but couple of my friends from Heidelberg are Hoffenheim season ticket holders and they believe Hoffenheim could easily sell 40,000 for each match.

Or did you mean your "Benz Arena" in Stuttgart? :o

However, I totally understand where you are coming from there.

I think TSG understands just what you said and that is why the new stadium is only going to hold 30,000.

I think they had no idea how successful they would be and 30,000 is good for the 1st and 2nd Bundesligas.

But if they can keep up this level of success, they'll be expanding that puppy in about five years. ;)

When they finish the Benz Arena, it is going to be between 50-55,000 for you guys right??

[Rainer24]

Generally pretty full? I believe they've sold out every match.

I know the Carl-Benz Stadion only holds just over 26,000, but couple of my friends from Heidelberg are Hoffenheim season ticket holders and they believe Hoffenheim could easily sell 40,000 for each match.

Or did you mean your "Benz Arena" in Stuttgart? :o

However, I totally understand where you are coming from there.

I think TSG understands just what you said and that is why the new stadium is only going to hold 30,000.

I think they had no idea how successful they would be and 30,000 is good for the 1st and 2nd Bundesligas.

But if they can keep up this level of success, they'll be expanding that puppy in about five years. ;)

When they finish the Benz Arena, it is going to be between 50-55,000 for you guys right??


Yeah, I was referring to the Mercedes-Benz Arena (aka Gottlieb Daimler Stadion). It holds over 55,000 right now. It will be up to 60,000 by 2012.

[footyfan1]

Yeah, I was referring to the Mercedes-Benz Arena (aka Gottlieb Daimler Stadion). It holds over 55,000 right now. It will be up to 60,000 by 2012.

Thanks for that. I had the numbers reversed in my head and just didn't have time to look it up.

[kaiser kraut]

Oh, credentials check? OK, I started supporting VfB when I was an Austauschstudent at Uni in Vaihingen for a year back in 2000/2001. But I actually went to my first VfB (and first BL) game back in 1998, against Schalke, 0-0. May I now proceed forward?


OK, enough of me being a smartass...

Look, my opinion on the Hoffenheim thing, is that its bullcrap to support (and I mean, really get behind) another team, and then switch to a local team only once they've ascended several divisions to become top-flight. That's crap in my book. If this person is so proud about their local team, they should've given a crap back when they were playing Regionalliga or whatever. I live in Indianapolis, support Columbus, but if Indianapolis got a team I wouldn't switch colors.

I try to draw a distinction between people who had a passing interest in the sport/league, and those who blatantly switch alliegances. To a degree I dislike it when it happens to a team that suddenly finds themselves with a lot of money (Chelsea, for example), but I can't really fault people who hadn't really noticed the team (or the sport) before and then suddenly their local outfit is making some noise. That is just circumstancial.

[footyfan1]

Look, my opinion on the Hoffenheim thing, is that its bullcrap to support (and I mean, really get behind) another team, and then switch to a local team only once they've ascended several divisions to become top-flight. That's crap in my book.


I don't think anyone disagrees with that point of view.



I try to draw a distinction between people who had a passing interest in the sport/league, and those who blatantly switch alliegances.

Many in the Rhein-Neckar area who supported other teams were mostly casual supporters. Even VfBStuttgartFan made that distinction.

Not saying all of them were that way because I know a few who definitely switched allegiances.

However, speaking for the former BVB fans I know, they were really just casual fans.


To a degree I dislike it when it happens to a team that suddenly finds themselves with a lot of money (Chelsea, for example), but I can't really fault people who hadn't really noticed the team (or the sport) before and then suddenly their local outfit is making some noise. That is just circumstancial.

Totally agree and I think people just didn't realize how many of those people were in the Rhein-Neckar area.

That area is also a "well-moneyed" region of Germany. Just think of how many are going to throw money at that club just to say they are into something with Dietmar Hopp???

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

The discussion was about the fans in the Rhein-Neckar area who are now supporting Hoffenheim and VfBStuttgartFan's comments about them.

You see in my view this not the original point I made when I first discussed the crazy gloryhunters, in my words - I was discussing newly-born Hoffenheim supporters in and around Stuttgart.

you brought up the other regions (rightly so) and I will answer your retort to my post later but I need to find like 20 minutes free time first(prolly sometime this evening) as your posts rarely offer the chance for a short response. :)