Einmal Löwe - Immer Löwe / TSV 1860 München Official Thread 08/09 [R]

[LoewenBoy]

I also think a lot of the return-leg issues are most due to he club being broke at the Winterpause and not bringing in those 2-3 players to shore up injury-plagued positions that the better 2. Liga sides always seem to do.
True we ahve no $$. But how many teams lose 6-8 of their starters from the hinrunde two seasons in a row? I am hoping that lightning will not strike a third time like this.

Also, when injury strikes, often those positions are turned over to kids who in a sense are learning on the job.
Again, true. But the big issues of last season's rueckrunde was not that we sucked all that badly....we didn't. The biggest reason was that we could not score. Hell, the defense did their job in most of the games in the rueckrunder. Problem was the offense only netted 13 goals after the break. Hell, the defense - anchored by the kids brought up from the IIs and the U19s - did a helluva job keeping 1860 in many of those games (7+ draws of 17). The offense, mostly Wolff and Kusuckovic, could not score. Well, on the field anyway.

While the roster seems stronger this season, especially so with the success of our kids on the U19 national team (congrats for the Euromeisterschaft :D), I'm not sure if the club is yet strong enough or has any budget left to overcome those usual second-half woes.
Health and scoring will keep us in the hunt. Either of those dip in form and we will be in trouble. The BIGGEST problem I see it that it takes 1860 a whole round to correct their problems. Dry spells will happen but we cannot let them take 14-17 games to turn around. THAT has been our problem the last few years. On depth, I think we are there. Keeper is our biggest worry right now.

If they can put together a full high-quality season, I have no doubt they have a great shot at being promoted, and I 'd personally love to see what Reuter/Kurz could do with a Bundesliga-sized budget. I think they could poke a huge hole in the Wildmoser/Lorant legend.
Totally agree. We need a HUGE scoring run this season. Would love to see Schroth in the 2.BL but not sure that is going to happen. Sad.

[russ99]

True we have no $$. But how many teams lose 6-8 of their starters from the hinrunde two seasons in a row? I am hoping that lightning will not strike a third time like this.

Again, true. But the big issues of last season's rueckrunde was not that we sucked all that badly....we didn't. The biggest reason was that we could not score. Hell, the defense did their job in most of the games in the rueckrunder. Problem was the offense only netted 13 goals after the break. Hell, the defense - anchored by the kids brought up from the IIs and the U19s - did a helluva job keeping 1860 in many of those games (7+ draws of 17). The offense, mostly Wolff and Kusuckovic, could not score. Well, on the field anyway.

Health and scoring will keep us in the hunt. Either of those dip in form and we will be in trouble. The BIGGEST problem I see it that it takes 1860 a whole round to correct their problems. Dry spells will happen but we cannot let them take 14-17 games to turn around. THAT has been our problem the last few years. On depth, I think we are there. Keeper is our biggest worry right now.

Totally agree. We need a HUGE scoring run this season. Would love to see Schroth in the 2.BL but not sure that is going to happen. Sad.

I'm with you on more scoring. I certainly hope Benny can be more like the Lauth of old, especially against lesser 2. Liga keepers and defenders. I also think if Gebhart can play like he did with the U19 squad, and maybe even solidify that #10 role, Göktan can be much more effective if used up front. Anything we get from Schroth at this point would be a huge bonus.

Heck, even the defense is stronger than last season. You're right to be nervous about keeper, but at least Reuter brought in a talented kid in the offseason to fall back on if need be.

As for the health issues, no football club is entirely healthy all season, so to expect that is a bit of wishful thinking. Sure, we've been hit harder and at more key positions the last few seasons than other clubs, and have few experienced reserves to pick up the slack.

The difference between Sechzig and a club with deeper pockets like Gladbach or Köln is that they can afford to bring in some help at the Winterpause to spell injured players while we can't. It doesn't help things that when Reuter actually made a move last Winterpause (for Pagenburg) it completely fizzled out.

When injuries roll around (and they will, but hopefully to a lesser extent this season) we have to rely on the kids. But it looks like we have a better crop of kids than usual this season... :)

[LoewenBoy]

As for the health issues, no football club is entirely healthy all season, so to expect that is a bit of wishful thinking. Sure, we've been hit harder and at more key positions the last few seasons than other clubs, and have few experienced reserves to pick up the slack.
Right...exactly my point. Other clubs that had "key injuries" did not have them nearly as bad as 1860 did for two seasons. The other key factor, which seems to coincide with the key injuries, is that we go on slumps that last 3/4 of the round. We will have to overcome that if we can expect to be near the top.

On a totally different note, 1860 and FCK will play a "heimatabend" game tomorrow. How I miss those game....going to the stadium on the streetcar, grabbing a few beers at "Flaucher" before the match, sitting in the biergarten. Urgh....and its 105F in the shade in Texas right now....make looking at this pic that much more painful.

http://www.tsv1860.de/media/images/2_saison/2008_2009/diverses/giesinger-heimatabend_622.jpg

[Floormaster Squeeze]

I'm with you on more scoring. I certainly hope Benny can be more like the Lauth of old, especially against lesser 2. Liga keepers and defenders. I also think if Gebhart can play like he did with the U19 squad, and maybe even solidify that #10 role, Göktan can be much more effective if used up front. Anything we get from Schroth at this point would be a huge bonus.

Heck, even the defense is stronger than last season. You're right to be nervous about keeper, but at least Reuter brought in a talented kid in the offseason to fall back on if need be.


I saw the Kicker article that said 1860 would be switching to a 4-4-2 Diamond/Raute. http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/2bundesliga/startseite/artikel/215374/

Gebhart played an attacking midfield role with the U-19 team right? So he would be playing up top on the diamond, right? The article refers to Lauth and Goektan as "10's" and DiSalvo/Kucukovic also up front.

Any thoughts on who will be playing where (I think I get what will be going on in the back and front but the new midfield roles I want to get your thoughts here)?

[footyfan1]

I saw the Kicker article that said 1860 would be switching to a 4-4-2 Diamond/Raute. http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/2bundesliga/startseite/artikel/215374/

Gebhart played an attacking midfield role with the U-19 team right? So he would be playing up top on the diamond, right? The article refers to Lauth and Goektan as "10's" and DiSalvo/Kucukovic also up front.

Any thoughts on who will be playing where (I think I get what will be going on in the back and front but the new midfield roles I want to get your thoughts here)?

The article actually refers to Göktan as the playmaker or "#10" behind Lauth and DiSalvo OR Ku-SUCK-ovic, up front.

Ku-SUCK-ovic supposedly has had a pretty decent pre-season.

I think a 4-4-2 with midfield diamond could wind up looking like this (starter/backup):


---------------------------Hoffman/Tschauner------------------------------


Thorandt/Johnson----Beda/Gregg----Mate G/Jungwirth----Hofmann/B.Schwarz



-------------------------D. Schwarz/Ledgerwood--------------------------




--------L. Bender/Johnson----------------Bierofka/S. Bender/Gebhardt------





-----------------------------Göktan/Gebhardt-----------------------------



-------------Lauth/Holebas---------------------Ku-SUCK-ovic/diSalvo------


Getting Schroth back would be a bonus....... ;)

[LoewenBoy]

I saw the Kicker article that said 1860 would be switching to a 4-4-2 Diamond/Raute. http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/2bundesliga/startseite/artikel/215374/

Not sure I buy that formation for this team. Reason: We do not have a solid set of central midfielders who can attack AND defend with equal prowess. We have guys who are great defensive midfielders (Benders, Danny Schwarz, Ledgerwood, Baumgartlinger), and two who can attack well (Bierofka, Gebhart and Holebas, though the latter is listed as a striker). None of these guys can do both equally.

Gebhart played an attacking midfield role with the U-19 team right? So he would be playing up top on the diamond, right?
Of all the players on the side, to me, Gebhart is the one who has never really proven himself (IMHO) as being starting 11 caliber. He plays well in the IIs and U19 matches, but when he gets to teh 2.BL games he always seems lazy and lacking of ideas. Maybe that will come in time....but 1860 needs a proven player now. For me, if they do play a 4 man diamond, that attacking midfielder is Goektan or Bierofka. That role requires speed, vision and the ability to dribble to create space. The only real dribblers we have are those two.

The article refers to Lauth and Goektan as "10's" and DiSalvo/Kucukovic also up front.
Lauth as a #10? The writer must have been smoking crack. Goektan=yes, but Lauth?

As far as DiSalvo, I think his role should be striker. His ability to start should be dependent on who is available to be his striker partner and who they are playing. He needs room to move and is good against teams who do not mark him tight.

Kusuckovic (as Footyfan has appropriately named him) should not see any playing time unless Lauth, DiSalvo, Holebas, Goektan, Schaeffler and even the pretzel salesman in Row 223, are still healthy. He is a walking yellow card and has no nose for goal. I am trying to think of a striker in recent memory that is as dimwitted in front of goal as he is....cannot think right now but one will come to mind.

Any thoughts on who will be playing where (I think I get what will be going on in the back and front but the new midfield roles I want to get your thoughts here)?
My thoughts depending on formation (see below). I would think Ledgerwood, Gebhart or Baumgartlinger could fill in in the midfield. Eberlein, Hofmann, Berhalter, Thorandt or Jungwirth could fill in in the back. I believe Kurz is going to go with Tschauner over Hoffmann...but that is his call. Up front I have made my concerns known. Kusuckovic has a contract through 2011 so they will certainly play him but I think its a BIG mistake.
http://www.mozartbrau.com/442.jpghttp://www.mozartbrau.com/4231.jpg

[Floormaster Squeeze]

Apologies for my bad German and my misunderstanding that a "zehner" is an attacking mid. The article clearly states that Göktan would play behind Lauth as a "10". I thought a "10" was a striker; apologies.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts on the midfield. I like the diamond midfield in theory, particularly with 1860 strengths in the defensive midfield. I just don't know about the players to know if they got a "#10" that has all the skills (control/vision) to do it from and attacking position. If it is a 4-4-2 diamond it would be easy to revert to 4-1-3-2 when necessary.

[LoewenBoy]

Apologies for my bad German and my misunderstanding that a "zehner" is an attacking mid.
No worries....the article was poorly written. I read the same thing. :D

If it is a 4-4-2 diamond it would be easy to revert to 4-1-3-2 when necessary.
Agreed, but the problem is if you play the 4 midfielders in a diamond you need the personnel who are able to control the wings AND the central mid. Danny Schwarz is not strong enough to handle central mid on his own. Bierofka, while a great playmaker and wing threat, does not get back fast enough to stop any "flanken" or flanking runs. Same with Holebas.

That said, if they DO go that route perhaps Kurz is trusting his wing defenders to be able to cut down and delay the flanking runs. Great, I have no issues with that. 1860's BIGGEST problem has been lack of ariel supremacy when the crosses DO come in. Central defense and midfield will need to get back to cover that. IF they can do that then I can see how this formation would work.

I would look at the two training games they played for clues as to the formation. In those two matches they are clearly playing with a back 4: Thorandt was played both inside and outside, Johnson just outside, Berhalter inside in both matches with Eberlein as a sub, Benny Schwarz outside with Hofmann as a sub. Very telling. More so will be the game against FCK tomorrow and the Galatasary match Saturday.

In midfield they seemed to have played a 1-2-1 formation with Beda or Ledgerwood in the back, Bierofka/Schwarz or Ledgerwood in the middle and Schwarz/Goektan behind the strikers.

At striker, DiSalvo seems to have been the favorite with two starts. Lauth and Kusuckovic have swapped out. I cannot imagine they will let Lauth - a fan favorite - sit on the bench.

The next three test matches should show us what Kurz is thinking. For a complete list go here (http://www.tsv1860.de/de/saison/profis/testspiele/2008/).

[goindownsouth]

Right...exactly my point. Other clubs that had "key injuries" did not have them nearly as bad as 1860 did for two seasons. The other key factor, which seems to coincide with the key injuries, is that we go on slumps that last 3/4 of the round. We will have to overcome that if we can expect to be near the top.

On a totally different note, 1860 and FCK will play a "heimatabend" game tomorrow. How I miss those game....going to the stadium on the streetcar, grabbing a few beers at "Flaucher" before the match, sitting in the biergarten. Urgh....and its 105F in the shade in Texas right now....make looking at this pic that much more painful.

http://www.tsv1860.de/media/images/2_saison/2008_2009/diverses/giesinger-heimatabend_622.jpg






It is well in the 90s here in South Carolina, my friend. I could use a chestnut tree and ein Mass myself... Sakea alive.

[panicfc]

Here is Huntsville - I could use some breeze and cool temps.

[footyfan1]

It is well in the 90s here in South Carolina, my friend. I could use a chestnut tree and ein Mass myself... Sakea alive.

Well, I'm here in Germany and most of me still longs for the heat of San Antonio.

I must be nuts....... :o

[LoewenBoy]

Well, I'm here in Germany and most of me still longs for the heat of San Antonio.

I must be nuts....... :o
Confirmed....you are legally insane. I will take your daily view of the Zugspitze against my daily view of "the rolling hills of north Texas" any day of the week, and twice on the weekend.

[LoewenBoy]

The "Heimatabend" against FCK ended with 1860 taking them 1-0. Woudl not read too much into this. It was hardly a test match even. Most players are reported to have treated it more like a testimonial match, but only slightly more seriously.

1860 München - 1. FC Kaiserslautern 1:0 (0:0)


1860: 12 Tschauner - 33 Johnson, 16 Thorandt, 5 Berhalter, 4 Hoffmann - 25 Ledgerwood - 8 D. Schwarz, 7 Bierofka - 10 Göktan - 24 Kucukovic, 11 Lauth.

Bench: 1 Hofmann (Tor) - 9 Di Salvo, 14 Holebas, 19 Ghvinianidze, 23 B. Schwarz, 26 Baumgartlinger, 27 Schäffler, 28 Eberlein.


1. FCK: 1 Sippel - 23 Dick, 5 Amedick, 2 Ouattara, 34 Schönheim - 38 Kotysch - 22 Reghecampf, 10 Dzaka, 16 Bellinghausen - 11 Ziemer, 26 Jendrisek.

Bench: 29 Trapp (Tor) - 7 Reinert, 8 Rebholz, 13 Klinger, 21 Demai, 32 Broniszewski.


Substitutions: Hofmann für Tschauner (46.), Ghvinianidze für Berhalter (46.), Di Salvo für Lauth (61.), Baumgartlinger für Kucvukovic (61.), Holebas für Bierofka (72.), B. Schwarz für Hoffmann (77.), Schäffler für Göktan (81.), Eberlein für Thorandt (81.) – Demai für Dick (49.), Reinert für Jendrisek (71.), Broniszewski für Dzaka (78.), Klinger für Ziemer (88.).


Goals: 1:0 Amedick (80., OG).


Cautions: Baumgartlinger -.


Referee: Dr. Felix Brych (München)
Assistants: Christian Leicher (Weihmichl), Stefan Schlott (Wurmannsquick).


Attendance: 9.300 im Grünwalder Stadion.

[LoewenBoy]

The game, while a 0-0 draw, was fairly promising from 1860's perspective. The new formation held up well against a very strong team. In the US on FSC they showed the results from all the international friendlies this weekend and 1860 was the only second division club out of all of them, regardless of the country. Cool to seee.

Missing: Florian Jungwirth, Sven Bender, Timo Gebhart and Lars Bender have a Trainingspause through Wed. Markus Schroth is in rehab for his injury. Christoph Burkhard, Alexander Eberlein, Markus Krauss and Manuel Schäffler are in U23 test matches. Mustafa Kucukovic had an inflamation of his toe and was out.

German report from 1860 website. (http://www.tsv1860.de/de/saison/profis/testspiele/2008/testspiel_1860_galatasaray_2008-08-03.php) The match stats below.

1860 München - Galatasaray Istanbul 0:0


1860: 12 Tschauner - 4 Hoffmann, 19 Ghvinianidze, 6 Beda, 33 Johnson - 25 Ledgerwood - 8 D. Schwarz, 7 Bierofka - 10 Göktan - 9 Di Salvo, 11 Lauth.

Bench: 1 Hofmann (Tor) - 5 Berhalter, 14 Holebas, 16 Thorandt, 23 B. Schwarz, 26 Baumgartlinger.


Galatasaray: 1 Ercetin - 87 Güven, 21 Asik, 5 Meira, 74 Yaman - 14 Topal - 11 Sas, 18 Akman - 66 Turan - Yildiz, 20 Nonda.

Bench: 26 De Sanctis (Tor) - 7 Aydin, 8 Özbek, 22 Balta, 35 Elmas, 55 Sarioglu, 60 Erdem, 80 Akca, 81 Osmanoglu, 83 Senturk.


Subs: Hofmann für Tschauner (46.), Berhalter für Ghvinianidze (46.), B. Schwarz für Johnson (46.), Thorandt für Beda (58.), Baumgartlinger für Di Salvo (58.), Holebas für Bierofka (71.) - Özbek für Güven (10.), Aydin für Akman (46.), Akca für Meira (46.), Hakan Balta für Sas (46.), Sarioglu für Özbek (46.), Elmas für Asik (71.), Osmanoglu für Turan (71.), Senturk für Nonda (71.), Erdem für Topal (77.).

[darb]

Ledgerwood is getting some complete games in there. Has he improved enough that the defending midfield role is now his to lose or is this just some preseason trial he's undergoing?

[LoewenBoy]

AC Montichiari is a Serie D, former Serie C2 team. The IIs played very well. I do not know if the PKs awarded were legit or not, but good to see the team playing well. The 2-1 score line until the 68th tells me it was a close match. Interested in Krauss and his performance as he is a new keeper. Would be interesting to see if the goals were good or were keeper error. I will surf the german pages to see what I can find.

TSV 1860 München II - AC Montichiari 3:2 (2. August 2008)
1860: Krauss - Ratei (64. Kaiser), Tausendpfund (46. Leist), Eberlein (77. Wittek), Schick (46. Bückle) - Burkhard (58. Stahl) , Knauer - Hamann, Schittenhelm, Manga (77. Hosiner) - Schäffler.

Tore: 1:0 Schäffler (1.), 2:0 Schick (12., Foulelfmeter), 2:1 Ferrari (19.), 2:2 Ferrari (68.), 3:2 Schäffler (90., Foulelfmeter).

[LoewenBoy]

Ledgerwood is getting some complete games in there. Has he improved enough that the defending midfield role is now his to lose or is this just some preseason trial he's undergoing?
They have always liked him. He was in the process of getting some serious sub time (and a few starts) before his injury last season. He was kept in the U23 as part of his rehab for two reasons: 1) rehab at a slower pace and, 2) they needed the help to try to make the 3.BL. When the pros started to show signs of needign his help in the last 5 games of the season he was brough up....and played well. He had 4 complete games and two where he was subbed-in.

I think 1860 will continue to use him in the defensive midfield role. He is tough, has good vision, gets back well and marks well. A bit slow in attack and seems to not like to dribble beyond midfield. I noticed that when they played him for Canada on the left side, he seemed reluctant to go beyond a certain point. Perhaps that was the coach's orders...dunno.

Nick is one of the guys I hope 1860 can turn into the Canadian version of Paul Agostino....an Aussie who stayed at 1860 for his career. 1860 is loyal to good, solid players. Of course, I would be happy if he "made it" with a 1.BL team too. But would rather that team be 1860.:D

[LoewenBoy]

Kurz has picked his number #1 keeper (http://www.tsv1860.de/de/aktuell/news/2008/news_2008-08-04_tschauner.php) for the upcoming season. Surprise, surprise its Tschauner. I certainly hope his bonehead days are over. He really needs to step up his game to fill Hofmann's shoes. Not that Michi was an Oliver Kahn, but he was always pretty consistent.

[footyfan1]

Kurz has picked his number #1 keeper (http://www.tsv1860.de/de/aktuell/news/2008/news_2008-08-04_tschauner.php) for the upcoming season. Surprise, surprise its Tschauner. I certainly hope his bonehead days are over. He really needs to step up his game to fill Hofmann's shoes. Not that Michi was an Oliver Kahn, but he was always pretty consistent.


This will be "interesting" to say the least......

[LoewenBoy]

Kurz' new tactics
The Lions plan to make amends. After a catasrophic return leg last season, there is reconciliation to be done with the fans.

http://mediadb.kicker.de/news/1000/1020/1100/4000/artikel/595095/180x135_ArYHKQviyF.jpeg (http://javascript<b></b>:openZoom(216406, 2, 600))
Marco Kurz still enjoys much sympathy in München.
© imago http://www.kicker.de/library/img/zoom.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:openZoom(216406, 2, 600))

Comings and Goings
"Class instead of mass", so is the motto of the summer transfer politics at 1860. Only three new players were acquired, the rest were already part of the organization. Most spectacular was the return of "lost son" Benny Lauth (Hannover96). After 4 years in the BL, the striker returned to the club of his youth; and the return was transfer free. A six-digit fee will be paid only if 1860 achieves promotion by 2009. The other marquee signing is Mathieu Beda (1.FC Kaiserslautern, transfer-free), who will organize the future defense. Markus Krauss (SSV Reutlingen) was secured as a third goalkeeper for the first team. Of the players who left this season, only striker Josh Wolff (Kansas Wizzards) had been a consisten starting player.

Tests & Goals
After high victories over lesser-class teams, 1860 played Unterhaching (2 - 4 loss) and emerged with their first harsh setback. But afterwards, they followed it with three 1:0 - victories against Slavia Sofia (1.Liga Bulgaria), Mlada Boleslav (1st league Czech Republic) and Kaiserslautern (2.BL); as well as a 0-0 draw with Turkich first division and title contenders Galatasaray.

Strengths & Weaknesses
The team that was well co-ordinated was only strengthened. If key players like long-injured Ghvinianidze and Schroth return, Coach Kurz can fall back to many alternatives. "Young Bucks" like the Benders, Gebhart, Kucukovic, Baumgartlinger, Benjamin Schwarz and Ledgerwood are all one year further along in development and have demonstrated more consistency. [Loewenboy Comment: Agree...except with Kusuckovic. Note they do not mention Tschauner and "consistency"?] The foot is in the door. It will be interesting to see whether Lauth can bring new momentum to 1860s offensive punch.

System & Taktik
Trainer Marco Kurz is changing over from the 4-2-3-1 of the past season to a 4-4-2 in a potential diamond formation in midfield. With Lauth, di Salvo, Kucukovic, Holebas and Göktan up front he has many more attacking options than before.

Trainer & Environment
After emerging disputes in the executive committee, Rainer Beeck has succeeded von Linde and returned 1860 again to peace. The coach enjoys sympathy from both the fans and the club. Despite the weak return leg season, expectations are high. Stefan Reuter has consoldiated his position with in the club as an even stronger influence with the Lauth transfer and his appointment as the exclusive managing director (for Dr.Ziffzer). [Loewenboy Comment: Makes it sound like Reuter planned all of that. Don't know if he did but highly doubt he helped push Ziffzer out.]

Opinions & Objectives
The club has "Lauth Fever". Fifteen percent more season tickets have been sold this season. The fans have high expectations, but promotion is more than just a matter of 2009 coming....it has to actually be achieved.

Results & Prognosis
1860 are well stocked. Kurz has secured a good roster, to which four U19 European Champions reside. "Die Löwen" should land, based on this potential, within the top six in the league.

Translated from Kicker article here (http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/2bundesliga/startseite/artikel/216406/).