Handling Just Outside the Box Quiz

[PVancouver]

A defender has fallen on the ground in the "D", the area just above the penalty area inside the penalty arc. The ball rests nearby in the D, just touching and overlapping the penalty area line. As an attacker approaches, the defender, in a panic, uses his hand to knock the ball to his goalkeeper. His hand contacts the ball outside the box and never reaches the penalty area line. What should be the restart, a direct kick or a penalty kick?

Please ignore any possible sanction for misconduct. Also, the USSF answer has already been given in The Beautiful Game forum and Ask A Soccer Referee. Please do not use these sources to respond here. Feel free to use the Laws of the Game or the Advice to Referees. If you would like to comment, please use the relevant subforum (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=717723) in The Beautiful Game forum to do so.

[ref47]

presuming the statement is that the ball is on the pa line, then it is in the pa. any touch by a defender, non-keeper of this ball is a pk. the lines are part of the area they define. it's the location of the ball, not the player that counts.

if you believe the ball to be completely outside the pa, then you cannot allow the spot for the fk to be on the line of the pa. if that is the spot of the foul, move to pk. if outside the pa, spot the ball outside the pa.

[nonya]

it depends...from my point of view as the referee..

A 5-0 match with the team in the lead...free kick
A 5-0 match with the team behind....PK

A 0-0 match I would probably make it a free kick, especially if it is a good match, I am old school and I believe that the players should determine the match not a PK. The game moves so fast now, that it is hard for a player to touch the ball "on the line"

As an AR....I let the referee call it unless he asks me, then see above.

[PVancouver]

presuming the statement is that the ball is on the pa line, then it is in the pa. any touch by a defender, non-keeper of this ball is a pk. the lines are part of the area they define. it's the location of the ball, not the player that counts.

if you believe the ball to be completely outside the pa, then you cannot allow the spot for the fk to be on the line of the pa. if that is the spot of the follow, move to pk. if outside the pa, spot the ball outside the pa.

"it's the location of the ball, not the player that counts."

Why isn't it the location where the hand contacted the ball that is important?

I had a lot of difficulty understanding your second paragraph. What if an attacker stands just outside the penalty area, and a defender strikes the attackers leg an inch outside the area. Shouldn't the ball be placed inside the area, but still be a DFK?

[ref47]

for reasons known only to ifab/ussf we make a distinction between people and the ball, as i understand things. the ball on the line is in the area that the line defines. a player on the line is not treated the same way. if he is half in and half out of the area, and you foul him by contact on the part outside of the area, the foul is outside of the area. why? you know porn when you see it but try and define it.

[Tarheel Ref]

Shouldn't the ball be placed inside the area, but still be a DFK?

Are you serious? Maybe this should be in a new forum for folks who want to change the LOTG?

Plus your question isn't worded correctly either..."handles the ball on the PA line outside the PA" is an impossibility unless the guy painting the lines was in the same state as that Belarussian ref we've been hearing so much about.

[PVancouver]

Are you saying it should be a PK, or that the ball should not be placed where the foul occurred?

"Plus your question isn't worded correctly either..."handles the ball on the PA line outside the PA" is an impossibility unless the guy painting the lines was in the same state as that Belarussian ref we've been hearing so much about."

Well, I am trying to describe what happens, not how it should be interpreted.
He touches a part of the ball which is outside the penalty area, but the ball is on the line, with part of it inside and most of it outside the penalty area.

[Tarheel Ref]

Are you saying it should be a PK, or that the ball should not be placed where the foul occurred?

Can't have a DFK in the box only a PK...if the ball was on the line when it was handled then its in the PA and a PK. If the whole ball is outside the PA line then DFK from the spot of the foul. This kind of question (not the one above but the poll question) can only serve to confuse those trying to learn the LOTG.

[nonya]

I saw a guy fail his assessment because he awarded a direct kick outside the box and allowed the player to set the ball up partially touching the 18yard line. As the AR I tried to get the referee's attention before the kick to have him move the ball back, but I was unsuccessful. The assessor didn't like other aspects of his game, but grilled him for five minutes on it. He is still an 8 today because of it, and doesnt want to move to a 7.

Scenario I saw as AR. Attacker outside of PA strikes the goalie inside the PA the ball is in play but out of the pentalty area. Referee sends off the attacker, and awards PK.

"handles the ball on the PA line outside the PA" is an impossibility"
No its not, I have seen it...Defender standing outside the field of play, handles the ball on the goal line before going into touch for a GK. He thought the ball was already out and was going to pick it up to set up the goal kick. Technically he is outside the pentalty area and he handled the ball on the goal line. Referee awarded PK.

[Tarheel Ref]

Nonya...if the ball was touched before it had completely gone over the end line within the boundaries of the PA than it is still inside the PA and a PK was the right call.

Just saw this in the WNT match vs Brazil this weekend...long shot off goal and the Brazil GK moves near (apparently over but I disagree) the end line and handles the ball where it falls to the ground off the FOP past the end line. I didn't have DVR on the tv I was watching so I couldn't run it back but it sure looked to me like the GK mishandled the ball and restart should have been CK instead of GK (this happened maybe mid-1st half?)...announcers said the ball was already out of play but why would the GK in that kinda match save the ball from going into the crowd when replacement balls are right there...not like the GK has to run down a big hill to get the ball. I'd love to see the replay if anyone knows what I'm talking about here.

Ball is EITHER inside or outside the PA there is no gray area here IMHO.

[intechpc]

Come on guys, seriously? Is there anyone that read the poll question who didn't immediately see it as a thinly veiled invitation to start yet another epic PV thread in which he'll spend days writing countless posts debating the matters of logic and even disputing the laws of physics themselves? Now you guys are arguing the laws of geometry amongst yourselves?

How many times do you all have to get snagged on the hook before you learn to just leave the bait alone?

The question is simple and there is no debate, ball on the line is in the PA, therefore handling it by a defender is a PK. End of story. Quit debating the obvious and the inconsequential.

Oh and for the lurkers who are so quick to jump on how we're so mean to poor PV, consider this thread a prime example of what he does to piss people off on this board. PV knew the answer to this question before he posted it. It wasn't posted to further knowledge of the LOTG. PV was doing this all the time before I put him on my ignore list. Posting an innocuous question to get people involved so that when he then dumped out some off the wall suggestion (like a DFK to the attacking team taken inside the PA) people would be already trapped in the conversation. If he posted his true intent from the beginning he knows no one would answer. Every post from PV has some alterior motive. That's why people get sick of his posts and him in general. So when will folks here learn to let the crap sit?

[Tarheel Ref]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

LOL you're right I got suckered in....

[law5guy]

A defender has fallen on the ground in the "D",

PV...... along with the "D", the other official teams are...
the goalie "" and the The penalty "." ;)

[jkc313]

Uh. What's with the poll question? It's impossible for the ball to be on the penalty area line and outside of the penalty area at the same time. perhaps whoever is in charge of such things might want to change it to read a PLAYER who is outside the penalty area deliberately handles the ball which is ON the penalty area line. Hopefully, no one on this forum would get this wrong

[Wreave]

Come on guys, seriously? Is there anyone that read the poll question who didn't immediately see it as a thinly veiled invitation to start yet another epic PV thread in which he'll spend days writing countless posts debating the matters of logic and even disputing the laws of physics themselves?

(snip)

Every post from PV has some alterior motive. That's why people get sick of his posts and him in general. So when will folks here learn to let the crap sit?

OTOH, I learned (from his posting of his own cross-post) that PV does this to more than one forum. Good information.

And for the record, I voted on the obvious correct answer in the poll, but wasn't going to post on the topic. However, if it's going to be a discussion about how 95% of PV's posts are basically trolling, I'm in.

[PVancouver]

What if an attacker stands just outside the penalty area, and a defender strikes the attackers leg an inch outside the area. Shouldn't the ball be placed inside the area, but still be a DFK?

Are you serious? Maybe this should be in a new forum for folks who want to change the LOTG?

Plus your question isn't worded correctly either..."handles the ball on the PA line outside the PA" is an impossibility unless the guy painting the lines was in the same state as that Belarussian ref we've been hearing so much about.

Well, where would you place the ball, and why?

I saw a guy fail his assessment because he awarded a direct kick outside the box and allowed the player to set the ball up partially touching the 18yard line. As the AR I tried to get the referee's attention before the kick to have him move the ball back, but I was unsuccessful. The assessor didn't like other aspects of his game, but grilled him for five minutes on it. He is still an 8 today because of it, and doesnt want to move to a 7.

Why is this an impossibility? Do you place the ball at the spot of the foul according to the center of the ball, or its leading edge?

Come on guys, seriously? Is there anyone that read the poll question who didn't immediately see it as a thinly veiled invitation to start yet another epic PV thread in which he'll spend days writing countless posts debating the matters of logic and even disputing the laws of physics themselves? Now you guys are arguing the laws of geometry amongst yourselves?

No, I started it because I didn't expect a 19-0 vote in favor of a PK. I started it because in The Beautiful Game thread, the vote was 5-2 in favor of a direct kick. I started it here because I suspected I would get more eyeballs.

Posting an innocuous question to get people involved so that when he then dumped out some off the wall suggestion (like a DFK to the attacking team taken inside the PA) people would be already trapped in the conversation.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem off-the-wall at all to me. It seems to me the proper course to take. Yes, a logical work around could be elaborated that would remove the possibility that a DFK could occur in a penalty area, but I have yet to see this logic espoused officially (or even unofficially).

Uh. What's with the poll question? It's impossible for the ball to be on the penalty area line and outside of the penalty area at the same time. perhaps whoever is in charge of such things might want to change it to read a PLAYER who is outside the penalty area deliberately handles the ball which is ON the penalty area line. Hopefully, no one on this forum would get this wrong

Look, part of a ball on the line can be outside the penalty area, so that you can touch it without you yourself ever entering the penalty. I never said the whole ball was outside the box, I was trying to say the handling was outside the box.

OTOH, I learned (from his posting of his own cross-post) that PV does this to more than one forum. Good information.

And for the record, I voted on the obvious correct answer in the poll, but wasn't going to post on the topic. However, if it's going to be a discussion about how 95% of PV's posts are basically trolling, I'm in.

This was an uncommon situation, and I did not do it to "troll". I did it to learn what referees or those interested in the LOTG thought. Frankly, I did not expect a 19-0 vote. Had I known ahead of time that would occur, I would not have posted.

I'd still like to know why a DFK can't be "in" the penalty area, and why the LOTG and ATR are so unclear that the location of a handling offense depends only on the position of the ball, and not the actual location of the handling.

[Rufusabc]

I think we as referees would understand completely that the ball determines a handling violation within the penalty area. The ball is considered to be in the area if any part of it touches the line, therefore the ball not the hand is the determining factor.

Can you please stop, I'm begging you. Whatever you were doing before you starting posting scenarios fifty times a week, I'm begging you to please go back to whatever it was you were doing. Please.

R

[Tarheel Ref]

Deep breath...exhale...OK one last time then I should really consider the ignore feature.....clearly I've got more time on my hands than I should!

Well, where would you place the ball, and why?

I didn't answer the poll question because it was obvious as you found by the shutout score...according to your question, however, the ball should be spotted on the penalty mark and restarted with a PK. This is in answer to the handling with the ball on the PA line...I'm not sure where that first quote about striking in the leg came from unless you're just changing your question in the middle of the discussion...again.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem off-the-wall at all to me. It seems to me the proper course to take. Yes, a logical work around could be elaborated that would remove the possibility that a DFK could occur in a penalty area, but I have yet to see this logic espoused officially (or even unofficially).

Look, I'm not going to run around and look up the reference, but since I started refereeing in the mid-1980s it has always been perfectly clear that there is no such thing as a DFK in the PA since all DFK offenses in the PA result in a PK. Again, if you think the LOTG should change, head for another forum as referees call matches according to current law, not how we wish it could or should be.

Look, part of a ball on the line can be outside the penalty area, so that you can touch it without you yourself ever entering the penalty. I never said the whole ball was outside the box, I was trying to say the handling was outside the box.

But if the ball is on the PA line (which you wrote!) then it is in the PA as "lines are part of the areas they define." I don't remember what part of the LOTG that comes from nor do I care to look for it but, again, since I started refereeing that's the way it's been. If you think this should change, submit your requests to the Int'l Board and I'm sure they'll give your thoughts all the time they deserve.

I'd still like to know why a DFK can't be "in" the penalty area, and why the LOTG and ATR are so unclear that the location of a handling offense depends only on the position of the ball, and not the actual location of the handling.

Uh...when a ball is handled the location of the handling is the same as the location of the ball.

I really have got to get a life.....

[PVancouver]

I had a lot of difficulty understanding your second paragraph. What if an attacker stands just outside the penalty area, and a defender strikes the attackers leg an inch outside the area. Shouldn't the ball be placed inside the area, but still be a DFK?

I did change the foul in this case. I wanted an example where referees might agree that the position of the ball for a DFK restart could be in the PA (with the center of the ball outside the area, but part of the ball overlapping the PA line). No one as yet has allowed that this is a possibility.


I saw a guy fail his assessment because he awarded a direct kick outside the box and allowed the player to set the ball up partially touching the 18yard line. As the AR I tried to get the referee's attention before the kick to have him move the ball back, but I was unsuccessful. The assessor didn't like other aspects of his game, but grilled him for five minutes on it. He is still an 8 today because of it, and doesnt want to move to a 7.

nonya gives an example where this happened in a match. Although the details of why the referee allowed such a free kick weren't given, the implication is that under no circumstances could such a free kick be given, and I am trying to find out why.


I didn't answer the poll question because it was obvious as you found by the shutout score...according to your question, however, the ball should be spotted on the penalty mark and restarted with a PK. This is in answer to the handling with the ball on the PA line...I'm not sure where that first quote about striking in the leg came from unless you're just changing your question in the middle of the discussion...again.

Sorry, you did answer the wrong question. The purpose of the poll has been served. US referees do appear to be all on the same page on this. But, a side issue has come up. I still think a DFK could be awarded in the PA, but I can't get anyone to agree, and many seem to disagree. I would like to know what the thinking is, and why.


Look, I'm not going to run around and look up the reference, but since I started refereeing in the mid-1980s it has always been perfectly clear that there is no such thing as a DFK in the PA since all DFK offenses in the PA result in a PK.

If a foul occurs just outside the box (not a handling foul), why couldn't the spot of the ball end up overlapping the PA line, and thus be "in" the penalty area?


Again, if you think the LOTG should change, head for another forum as referees call matches according to current law, not how we wish it could or should be.

Well, first I have to know how the law is supposed to be called and why before I ask for a change.

[Tarheel Ref]

Well, first I have to know how the law is supposed to be called and why before I ask for a change.

:confused:

OK so I did do a little research here for you to jump-start your understand of the LOTG:

http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/lawsofthegame.html

Maybe a little more reading and a little less typing?