Serious Foul Play

[ZipSix]

In what sense is Thorrington's tackle on Moreno not SFP? Is the decision to caution and not send Thorrington off defensible?

I feel that our domestic top level officials have abdicated their role to protect players from challenges of this time and persistent infringement.

What can be done to change this?

XIE7lmgK2xw

[DadOf6]

In what sense is Thorrington's tackle on Moreno not SFP? Is the decision to caution and not send Thorrington off defensible?

I feel that our domestic top level officials have abdicated their role to protect players from challenges of this time and persistent infringement.

What can be done to change this?

XIE7lmgK2xw

When he swept his leg around it passed between Moreno and the ball. He didn't come close to the ball (I don't think he had a chance) so I would have considered writing it up as VC.

Expect a couple extra games for the #10 guy with no neck.

Don't expect change to come from the referees. The reative position of the ref and the players can make a terrible foul look less terrible. The most effective way to cut down the bad fouls is for the league to review them and hand down fines and suspensions.

[ZipSix]

I think that's pretty clearly SFP and not VC.

[DadOf6]

I think that's pretty clearly SFP and not VC.

If the ball was far enough away that he didn't have a chance to play it then it is VC. I'm pretty sure that in one of the week in review memos there was a similar play and they made the point that although the tackle was against the player with the ball the fact that the player making the tackle had no chance of playing the ball made it VC.

[CalNorth Pride]

Zip, you are right. The referee missed it and could have definately been SFP and a send off. However, to put this on the "it is a failure of American referee" idea, I think is misguided. These type of tackles get missed all over the world in all leagues. Trust me, people over in the EPL think there refs are the worst in the world too.

Dadof6, you would be hard pressed to convince that this is VC. He was making a mistimed and dangerous tackle that was within the vicinity of playing for the ball. It is an important distinction, in that VC communicates a more cynical and nefarious action that the player had no intent or care about the play or position of the ball and only objective was too intimidate and act "violently" toward his opponent. Disciplinary committee do make distinction in determining punishment based on VC and SFP. Sure in slow mo' the ball was a couple of yards off his feat, however in the speed of regular play this is clearly a tackle from behind that places the opponent in danger and thus SFP.

[ZipSix]

For the record, I am not trying to make the typical "US refs suck" argument. I agree that this call could be missed the world over.

My point is that referees by missing calls such as this have failed in their first duty, which is to protect the players.

[PVancouver]

If the ball was far enough away that he didn't have a chance to play it then it is VC. I'm pretty sure that in one of the week in review memos there was a similar play and they made the point that although the tackle was against the player with the ball the fact that the player making the tackle had no chance of playing the ball made it VC.

It was week 8, clip 5:Galaxy at Dallas (29:37, second half)

This is a clear example of a two footed tackle that is intended to injure an opponent. There is no intent to play the ball and it is being committed to “send a message.”

I disagreed with their view of the play, but if that is what the referee believes occurred, that is what should be called.

The LOTG/Interpretation say:

Violent conduct
A player is guilty of violent conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball.

So I would say that even though Thorrington wasn't close enough to play the ball, if he thought he was, and was making an honest effort to play the ball, as opposed to simply taking out Moreno because he knew he was beat, I would go with SFP.

Why Burch was credited with SFP instead of VC is beyond me.

[PVancouver]

My point is that referees by missing calls such as this have failed in their first duty, which is to protect the players.

If referees truly held that conviction, shouldn't every match be abandoned at the start?

Had Thorrington seriously injured Moreno, wouldn't the damage have already been done?

It seems to me your point was that domestic top level referees rarely send off a player for this type of tackle and rarely caution or send off players for persistent infringement, and so more US players presumably get injured because of this.

I feel that our domestic top level officials have abdicated their role to protect players from challenges of this time and persistent infringement.

For the record, I am not trying to make the typical "US refs suck" argument. I agree that this call could be missed the world over.

But you called out US refs in particular as if Moody's non-call was systemic to US refs and said the decision to caution and not send off Thorrington was indefensible.

[ZipSix]

Yes. Referees should abandon all matches before they are kicked off. US Soccer should disband and a tea-drinking society should be formed, but not a competitive tea-drinking society.

Thank you for ruining the Referee forum, by the way.

[DadOf6]

When he swept his leg around it passed between Moreno and the ball. He didn't come close to the ball (I don't think he had a chance) so I would have considered writing it up as VC.

Expect a couple extra games for the #10 guy with no neck.

Don't expect change to come from the referees. The reative position of the ref and the players can make a terrible foul look less terrible. The most effective way to cut down the bad fouls is for the league to review them and hand down fines and suspensions.

Quoting myself.

This was a LHUSOC game. Will red cards carry over to next year? I don't know.

[PVancouver]

Yes.

Players Suspended at Beginning of
2008 U.S. Open Cup Tournament

Player Suspension* Team When Suspension Imposed Reason For Suspension
Alebic, Sinisa Next game RWB Adria (USASA–Illinois) Red Card, 2007 1st Round
Altidore, Janak Next game Cocoa Expos (PDL) Red Card, 2005 Qualifying Round
Alvarado, Ramon Next game Croatian Eagles (USASA–Wisconsin) Red Card, 2006 Qualifying Round
Antoniuk, Daniel Next game Atlanta Silverbacks (USL1) Red Card, 2007 3rd Round
Bass, Jeremiah Next game Minnesota Thunder (USL1) Red Card, 2007 2nd Round
Bessemer, Chris Next game Salinas Valley Samba (USASA–Calif.) Discipline Panel Decision 7/14/05
(Player suspended for three games total; two games already served [per Discipline Panel] during 2006 qualifying; third game must be
served during Open Cup tournament.)
Bomman, John Next game Baltimore Colts FC (USASA–Md.) Red Card, 2005 1st Round
Cain, Russell Next game Nashville Metros (A-League) Red Card, 2001 2nd Round
Calvano, Anthony Next game Harrisburg City Islanders (USL2) Red Card, 2007 Quarterfinal
Caugherty, Ryan Next game Carolina Dynamo (PDL) Red Card, 2004 3rd Round
Corrales, Ramiro Next game San Jose Earthquakes (MLS) Red Card, 2004 Quarterfinal
Demba, Roland Next game Olympia Stamford (USASA–Conn.) Red Card, 2001 1st Round
Durrin, Tom (coach) Next game Bradenton Academics (PDL) Red Card, 2003 2nd Round
Edozien, Connally Next game Carolina RailHawks (USL1) Red Card, 2007 Semifinal
Erpen, Facundo Next game Colorado Rapids (MLS) Red Card, 2007 Quarterfinal
Erush, Michael Next game Miami FC (USL1) Red Card, 2006 2nd Round
Etienne, Derrick Next game Long Island Rough Riders (USL2) Red Card, 2005 2nd Round
Fadida, Daniel Next game Central Florida Kraze (PDL) Red Card, 2007 1st Round
Filipovic, Sladan Next game RWB Adria (USASA–Illinois) Red Card, 2007 1st Round
Goodfellow, Jacobi Next game Utah Blitzz (PDL) Red Card, 2004 3rd Round
Gutierrez, Henry Next game Pittsburgh Riverhounds (A-League) 3rd Yellow Card in same year, 2001
Quarterfinal
Harada, Shintaro Next game Crystal Palace Baltimore (USL2) Red Card, 2007 1st Round
Hassan, Ehab Next game Chaldean Arsenal (USASA–Mich.) Red Card, 2001 1st Round
Knowles, Cameron Next game Portland Timbers (USL1) Red Card, 2007 2nd Round
Kovalenko, Dema Next game New York Red Bulls (MLS) Red Card, MLS Play-In Game 5/8/07
Littman, Michael Next game Utah Blitzz, (USL-PSL) Red Card, 2003, 2nd Round
Loneusky, Bogdan Next game Olympia Stamford (USASA–Conn.) Red Card, 2001 1st Round
Lopez, Miguel (coach) Next game Miami FC (USL1) Dismissal, 2007 1st Round
Malachino, Joe Next game Mid Michigan Bucks (PDL) Red Card, 2001 2nd Round
Marino, Pete Next game Cocoa Expos (PDL) Red Card, 2005 Qualifying Round
Martins, Thiago Next game Colorado Rapids (MLS) Red Card, 2006 Quarterfinal
McKinley, Ivan Next game Cocoa Expos (PDL) Red Card, 2005 Qualifying Round
McLynn, Ross Next game Memphis Express (PDL) Red Card, 2002 2nd Round
Merl, Noah Next game Seattle Sounders (USL1) Red Card, 2007 Semifinal
Pineda, Miguel Next game Azzurri (USASA–Texas) Red Card, 2004 1st Round
Pulido, John Next game Miami FC (USL1) Red Card, 2007 1st Round
Scicluna, Dominic Next game Mid Michigan Bucks (PDL) Red Card, 2001 2nd Round
Simmons, Todd Next game Chico Rooks (USASA–Calif.) Red Card, 2004 1st Round
Stokes, David Next game Carolina RailHawks (USL1) Red Card, 2007 Semifinal
Toure, Ansu Next game Minnesota Thunder (USL1) Red Card, 2007 2nd Round
Urguijo, Harold Next game Crystal Palace Baltimore (USL2) Red Card, 2007 1st Round
West, Brian Next game Columbus Crew (MLS) Red Card, 2003 4th Round

*Note: Section 305(c), Player and Team Official Match Discipline, of the Open Cup Policy states:

“A suspension shall be served by the individual at the next Cup match or matches of the team of that
individual. If the individual has no remaining Cup matches during the year, the suspension shall be served at
the following year’s Open Cup competition’s matches first played.”