HA HO HE HERTHA BSC 08-09 thread [R]

[Borussia]

That ref was a disgrace.


I agree. Unbelievable how he could give a pk for Galatasaray in that scene (that was never an intentional handball)! :eek: And then he refused you 2-3 pk's during the last 10 minutes...:rolleyes:

It's a pity you lost the game in the 2nd half when you played a lot better ... but the guests (who had a home game at Olympiastadion) clearly dominated the first 45 minutes, so their win surely isn't undeserved.

Well, you still have a chance to qualify with a win in Greece ... but that will be a very tough task in front of their fanatical fans.

[Real Corona]

Maybe if Hertha just buy off the ref in Greece like the Turks clearly did in this game. :rolleyes:

[footyfan1]

Maybe if Hertha just buy off the ref in Greece like the Turks clearly did in this game. :rolleyes:

I think that's a little strong. That penalty given against Hertha can be given. It didn't have to be, but the ref wasn't "wrong" to give it.

I wasn't the only one who thought so. The German announcer and Kicker magazine called it correct too.

The only people complaining are Hertha and German fans.

However, I do feel he should have given Hertha one in that last big flurry in front of the Galatasaray net, but when I saw the replay, I could see that the referee probably could not see the clear handball just inside the area.

Hell, even the TV pictures were partially obstructed on that play.

He was never going to call the ball bouncing off the chest/shoulder of the guy after the handball.

Sorry you guys lost, but in my opinion, the referee was well within his rights to give that handball.

Stupid f#cking von Bergen shouldn't have jumped with his arm up. I know why he had it up. To protect his face.

But in that situation, you either jump and turn your back to the ball or take one for the team.

IMO, it is von Bergen you guys should be upset with, not the referee.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

I think that's a little strong. That penalty given against Hertha can be given. It didn't have to be, but the ref wasn't "wrong" to give it.

I wasn't the only one who thought so. The German announcer and Kicker magazine called it correct too.

The only people complaining are Hertha and German fans.


Well, footy, about this scene can be discussed (hard to see),
but there were also some other scenes in the match. Especially a similar scene, where the handball from a Gala player in penalty area was much clearer.

So the referee guided the match into one direction
(on purpose or not is based on your point of view).
As you did i would also not say he was biased or payed,
he simply acted very bad in the key scenes of the match.

[footyfan1]

Well, footy, about this scene can be discussed (hard to see),
but there were also some other scenes in the match. Especially a similar scene, where the handball from a Gala player in penalty area was much clearer.

So the referee guided the match into one direction
(on purpose or not is based on your point of view).
As you did i would also not say he was biased or payed,
he simply acted very bad in the key scenes of the match.


If you had replied to my entire message you would have seen that I said I think the referee was screened on the handball I thought should have been a penalty for Hertha.

As I said, even the TV replays were screened. There was no way in hell the referee could have saw that handball from his angle. You don't even see all of it in slow motion, so how the hell is a man supposed to see it with his naked eye at full speed??

[Real Corona]

Meh, I'm not saying I it did happen, but I'm not naive enough to think it's impossible.

[LoewenBoy]

Well I could see him missing one, maybe two of the potential PK calls, but not three. The take down of the striker prior to the two hand balls was obvious. He had position to see the foul, he either selected not to or looked away, but he clearly had position and angle to see it if he wanted.

The replay I saw (ovrhead) of the hand ball situation showed he also had angle and position to see it. He must have jsut decided it did not warrant a handball call. Odd because the second player was clearly moving his upper arm toward the ball, UNLIKE the HSC handball where his arm was simply in a stupid position. IMHO, if you give the latter you MUST give the former.

Better still, don't give the weak handball for a PK. Yes at their level they should know better, but I honestly think Bergen was simply putting his arm up out of the way, expecting the shot to be lower.

You really want to argue that call, it usually is not called unless the ball is going to potentially give the keeper trouble. Sad thing about that shot is it looked like it was destined for the stands.:rolleyes:

[LoewenBoy]

As I said, even the TV replays were screened. There was no way in hell the referee could have saw that handball from his angle. You don't even see all of it in slow motion, so how the hell is a man supposed to see it with his naked eye at full speed??
Referees at that level are taught NOT to put themselves in the position he was in. He should have been better positioned to see this. He was in a well-known blind spot for that level of play and the ref got lazy to to position himself better.

[footyfan1]

Well, footy, about this scene can be discussed (hard to see),
but there were also some other scenes in the match. Especially a similar scene, where the handball from a Gala player in penalty area was much clearer.

What Gala handball was "much clearer?"

You mean the one that hit the guy in the chest and shoulder after the true handball??

Because that first one wasn't "clear" at all and if you mean the one that hit the chest and shoulder, I didn't think that would get called because of the initial deflection that probably should have been a handball.

[footyfan1]

Referees at that level are taught NOT to put themselves in the position he was in. He should have been better positioned to see this. He was in a well-known blind spot for that level of play and the ref got lazy to to position himself better.

Yes sir.

You know, soldiers are taught what to do in close combat, yet we wind up in positions we shouldn't be in too.

I guess we're all lazy. :rolleyes:

[LoewenBoy]

Yes sir. You know, soldiers are taught what to do in close combat, yet we wind up in positions we shouldn't be in too. I guess we're all lazy. :rolleyes:
Ok, I expected the sacarsm, but having been a state referee for a long time I can tell you what typically happens to referees during matches. It is drilled into our heads once you get to the state level (this guy was a FIFA ref so he CERTAINLY should know better) that in the last five minutes we are to dig down deep, find that extra energy and make damn sure our calls are as sharp as they were in the first 5 mins. This is something refs train for. At his level it is second nature, unless they make a mental note NOT to. The reason is exactly what happened here, if you are out of position you miss key calls.

I am not saying referess cannot make mistakes. I am saying that they should be well positioned. Unlike in battles when your point of best position might be occupied by the enemy, referees have full run of the field. If he is not in position it is his choice, unlike soldiers who may not have that option.

Plus Keith, remember what the solider's motto is "adapt and improvise". Oh, wait, that's the Marines. Guess they get the point.:cool:

[footyfan1]

Ok, I expected the sacarsm, but having been a state referee for a long time I can tell you what typically happens to referees during matches. It is drilled into our heads once you get to the state level (this guy was a FIFA ref so he CERTAINLY should know better) that in the last five minutes we are to dig down deep, find that extra energy and make damn sure our calls are as sharp as they were in the first 5 mins. This is something refs train for. At his level it is second nature, unless they make a mental note NOT to. The reason is exactly what happened here, if you are out of position you miss key calls.

And when you are in position, you still don't get all of them.


I am not saying referess cannot make mistakes.


You don't have to say that, but no one ever has any understanding for them when they do miss something. I'm saying that these men don't have an easy job and as much as people love to bitch and complain, I'd like to see them do better.

On the "clear" call that probably should have gone for Hertha, I could barely see it in slow motion. You're going to tell me that this guy should have caught it with the naked eye??


I am saying that they should be well positioned.

How do you know he wasn't in position? He looked to be in a great spot to me, but action in the box was fast and hectic. He seemed to just let them play.


Unlike in battles when your point of best position might be occupied by the enemy, referees have full run of the field. If he is not in position it is his choice, unlike soldiers who may not have that option.

If the enemy is occupying the position you want, you attempt to take it.

Again, what makes you think the guy was out of position to begin with? Because he missed the call??

That's not a challenge. I'm asking you to tell me how you know the guy was out of position because I thought he was in position.

We had the same thing on the BVB List after the referee denied us a goal because he couldn't clearly see if the ball had crossed the line or not.

It was just a freak play. The ref was right where he was supposed to be as was the linesman.

Hannover players scrambling like crazy blocked the view of the referee and the linesman. The play happened so fast, neither of them could move into better position to see anything.

The BVB listers cried and whined almost as much as Klopp and certain players. They still point to that as an excuse for why BVB isn't higher than sixth.

And you know what? Even after that play, BVB had 72 minutes to win the match and they didn't get the job done. They just use it as an excuse for failure.

Here, yes, it is different, but please tell me how you know the play wasn't just too fast and hectic for that referee to make a call and it was just that "he wasn't in position?"

How do you know this? I think that's pretty strong calling the guy "lazy."

You know for a fact he just wasn't in the right position???


Plus Keith, remember what the solider's motto is "adapt and improvise". Oh, wait, that's the Marines. Guess they get the point.:cool:

"Adapt and Improvise" "Adapt and overcome." No difference. We all get the f#cking point. Take it from someone who's actually fought with them. :rolleyes:

[LoewenBoy]

You know for a fact he just wasn't in the right position???
Yes, Keith, I know for a f#cking fact he was in the wrong position. It is taught in referee camps at that level. I have a fews friends who are national referees who have attended the FIFA camps. His positioning was dead wrong. If he were being assessed, and he damn well might have been, the assessor would have remarked about where he SHOULD have been.

I don't want to sound condescending, but the subtlties of refereeing are not as obvious as laymen might think. We are taught to read the game, anticipate and position ourselves to make the call. Now, that said, I think everyone agrees that evening being in the right place, at the right angle, at the right time you STILL may not have a clear shot. But, it is the referee's job to BE in that position regardless. If not it is his failure.

Hell, I got flunked on my first 3 attempts to make state referee for very similar things. As I said, for a FIFA referee is should be second nature.

[footyfan1]

Yes, Keith, I know for a f#cking fact he was in the wrong position. It is taught in referee camps at that level. I have a fews friends who are national referees who have attended the FIFA camps. His positioning was dead wrong. If he were being assessed, and he damn well might have been, the assessor would have remarked about where he SHOULD have been.

I don't want to sound condescending, but the subtlties of refereeing are not as obvious as laymen might think. We are taught to read the game, anticipate and position ourselves to make the call. Now, that said, I think everyone agrees that evening being in the right place, at the right angle, at the right time you STILL may not have a clear shot. But, it is the referee's job to BE in that position regardless. If not it is his failure.

Hell, I got flunked on my first 3 attempts to make state referee for very similar things. As I said, for a FIFA referee is should be second nature.

OK. You say so. That's fine. I was hoping you'd tell me where he was and where he should have been, but if you say so, that's fine.

It doesn't change that I can understand how the guy didn't catch the call, but if you say he was out of position, then he was out of position.

I'm taking it you think he would have caught that one had be been wherever you were taught he should have been??

[LoewenBoy]

OK. You say so. That's fine. I was hoping you'd tell me where he was and where he should have been, but if you say so, that's fine.
Plays like that they teach you to be wide on the left diagonal, inside the box [pbut not obstructing play] so you can see your AR.

I'm taking it you think he would have caught that one had be been wherever you were taught he should have been??
Honestly do not know. All I know is, IF you are in the right position, anyone assessing you would not "mark you up" for missing the call. When you are out of position, then missing the call becomes more of a question mark against the ref. Like I said, where laymen "think" a referee should be and where we are "taught" to be are two different things. I have been in the wrong position and made the right call and still gotten written up in my assessments. Go figure.

[footyfan1]

Plays like that they teach you to be wide on the left diagonal, inside the box [pbut not obstructing play] so you can see your AR.

OK. And I think he was outside the box, but near the top of it and a bit to the left.

I thought they had to be at the top left, but outside the box. Now I know.

Thanks.



Honestly do not know. All I know is, IF you are in the right position, anyone assessing you would not "mark you up" for missing the call. When you are out of position, then missing the call becomes more of a question mark against the ref. Like I said, where laymen "think" a referee should be and where we are "taught" to be are two different things. I have been in the wrong position and made the right call and still gotten written up in my assessments. Go figure.

Of course, I don't get to see the UEFA referee assessments, but I wanted to see if Kicker would slam him for missing that call, but they did not.

They rated him a "4" and this is pretty much what they said:


Referee: Rizzoli (Italy), Rating: 4 - Booking Lincoln for diving in the 41st minute was incorrect as Lincoln was fouled. His hand ball decision in the 69th minute was correct as the arm was moving and prevented a goal chance. However, at the end, he occasionally lost control of the match.

I wonder why they didn't slam him specifically for the handball Hertha should have had?

I think they missed him being out of position as I apparently did too.

[LoewenBoy]

Of course, I don't get to see the UEFA referee assessments, but I wanted to see if Kicker would slam him for missing that call, but they did not.
Kicker has a hard time giving players correct evals. No way they have ex-referees on staff doing the referee evals.:cool:

I wonder why they didn't slam him specifically for the handball Hertha should have had? I think they missed him being out of position as I apparently did too.
My guess is because they want, what laymen see as obvious hand balls. I think the ones he called (or didn't call) were more subtle.

[footyfan1]

Kicker has a hard time giving players correct evals. No way they have ex-referees on staff doing the referee evals.:cool:

Oh, I agree. But again, in absence of the reports from the real experts, they are about the best barometer we have.

Trust me, I don't think their guys are any better than I am at rating players at least. I might have to give them the nod on refs.



My guess is because they want, what laymen see as obvious hand balls. I think the ones he called (or didn't call) were more subtle.

Well, if you read some of the comments of others around here, you'd believe the non-call we've been discussing which probably should have been for Hertha was "'obvious", wouldn't you???

This is why I defended the referee the way I did. I understand how he might have missed it and explained why I feel that way.

[Borussia]

What Gala handball was "much clearer?"


Yep, that handball from Kewell was A LOT clearer...

But it's useless discussing things that won't get called off.

[LoewenBoy]

Yep, that handball from Kewell was A LOT clearer...But it's useless discussing things that won't get called off.
We still discuss world peace with the same hope.:cool: