Match #31 :: The Final :: Sunday 29 June [R]

[Cris 09]

Luck? We don't win them by luck, we win them because our players don't take penaltys that can be saved and because our goalkeeper always save the ones that can be saved because every nation with exception of Germany bottles at least one pk. So yes please, bring on the pso! :D

Ok...you are for the most part; correct, but...BUT, luck does play a role in them as well!! As minor as that role might be - they are the outside element that could eventually decide an outcome!

[uclacarlos]

I watched the Spain semi-final a second time and he looked like he was just getting closer to getting things working again. If the coach shows a lot of faith in him, I really feel he could light it up Sunday.
I saw the same thing... first viewing. The guy was getting in dangerous positions all game long, but flubbing them. Then the last 10 minutes he started to click.

The good news for Spain, though, is that by showing faith in Guiza, the coach and we the fans were treated to a more confident Guiza. It wouldn't surprise me if Aragones kinda wanted to do exactly that: show Guiza confidence in a delicate balancing act w/ forwards' confidence.

[squidward123]

If you read an earlier post I stated that since Klinsmann and this tournament Germany have played an attractive attacking style of soccer. That said I am curious if the Germans revert to their old ways of dealing with more skillful teams. What happens if Spain puts Germany off their game by forcing Germany to defend rather than attack? In the past Germany would start knocking the players doing the attacking. Germany like Spain, Italy and Holland all have very unique styles to their play. I don't think you can change that style in 4 years.

I think you're correct but you're generalising too much. In the 60s and 70s and in a few parts after that there was no team more skilful than Germany so they didn't have to do that.

But there have also been periods where they were the less skilful team in a semifinal or final. (There were even exceptions though like the 02 final where they outplayed a "more skilful" team or in the 86 semifinal against France).

Germany have done it both ways. That's why they've amassed the records over the years.

Here is where I think bias comes in amongst "neutral" posters : (1) When Germany have been less skillful they have not actually won the trophy. Semifinal or Final and then a loss. (2) The German sides that were either the most skillful or in the top 2-3 in a tournament are the ones that actually won the trophies. There are cases when such sides had also not won as in 1970 and 2006.

Yet why is it that the former case (1) is what is popularised and promulgated?

[squidward123]

In this post and the others where you tried to defend it, you really sell the Spanish team short. And you sell Sweden, Greece and Russia short. And in so doing, you sell teams like Holland short.

This is a fantastic match-up against 2 teams that have shown that they are a notch above the competition, which itself has been formidable!! This is undeniable.

It's ridiculous to discredit either of these teams. Any poster that does so should be taken to task.

Cheers to all the German posters who recognize their team's strengths and weaknesses and Spain's strengths and weaknesses. Likewise for the Spanish posters.

Neither team is perfect. They're just damn good, and that's a fact. Should be a great game. :)

I said spain have been better, but not by THAT much as made out, when you see that 2 of the opponents have been sweden and greece in a dead rubber. I think you took my post too extremely.

Spain have been better.

[jerrito]

:rolleyes: I know, poor Holland.

If I was not crying I would be falling down laughing at that one!

[uclacarlos]

I said spain have been better, but not by THAT much as made out, when you see that 2 of the opponents have been sweden and greece in a dead rubber. I think you took my post too extremely.
Sweden is not an easy side to play against. They're quite good, fyi.

Greece won the damn tournament in '04. That's no laughing matter. And the "Spain" that beat them was made up (almost) entirely by the 2nd string.

Russia throttled one of the best teams in the tournament in Holland. Both Spain and Russia dismissed the survivors from the Group of Death. Not bad, I must say.

8 teams advanced out of group play. But I don't think the quality of the tournament would've been terribly compromised if any of 11 or 12 sides advanced. And that's w/ England at home and two lamentable automatic berths that took up space. That's the beauty of the Euro Cup, btw.

In short, you're selling too many teams short by dismissing Spain's accomplishments. The fact is that the vast majority of ppl felt that Spain outplayed the reigning world champion last Sunday and then proceeded to throttle a side that kept England out of the Cup, all while not turning in one poor performance since the start of the tournament.

Credit where credit is due.

[squidward123]

Sweden is not an easy side to play against. They're quite good, fyi.

They are quite good, but I said that they are not better than a turkey or poland in this tournament.


Greece won the damn tournament in '04. That's no laughing matter. And the "Spain" that beat them was made up (almost) entirely by the 2nd string.

One team was already out and the other one already through, so the match didn't mean much at all.


Russia throttled one of the best teams in the tournament in Holland. Both Spain and Russia dismissed the survivors from the Group of Death. Not bad, I must say.

Yeah, this was very good.



In short, you're selling too many teams short by dismissing Spain's accomplishments. The fact is that the vast majority of ppl felt that Spain outplayed the reigning world champion last Sunday and then proceeded to throttle a side that kept England out of the Cup, all while not turning in one poor performance since the start of the tournament.

Credit where credit is due.

All I was doing was saying that Spain haven't been THAT much better than germany. I got the impression that people were putting spain higher than they have been - at a VERY high level.

They have been better than germany, but with all things considered, not THAT much better.

If spain had to play a derby type game like germany had to twice, spain's performance might have been scrappy in that game (would still have won it) as well.

Spain have been better than germany in this tournament, yes.

[uclacarlos]

They are quite good, but I said that they are not better than a turkey or poland in this tournament.
Poland???

You mean P-o-l-a-n-d Poland?

Are you sure 'bout that?

One team was already out and the other one already through, so the match didn't mean much at all.
And one team was playing for pride -- HUGE for the Greeks, let me assure you.

And the other team was playing for more playing time in subsequent rounds and more pay w/ their clubs/other clubs. More important, Spain showed its incredible depth.

All these were motivating factors that led to a competitive match. Sorry.

Yeah, this was very good.
It was more than "good".

Spain showed that it was the best team in a bracket that had more contenders than Germany's. And they did so w/o struggling, except in the Italy game, which they still outplayed the reigning WC champs.

All I was doing was saying that Spain haven't been THAT much better than germany. I got the impression that people were putting spain higher than they have been - at a VERY high level.
I guess this is where we disagree.

By definition, the finalists of the Euro Cup are at pretty much thee highest level possible in soccer.

They have been better than germany, but with all things considered, not THAT much better.
Here's what needs to be considered: they're in the finals of the 2nd greatest tournament. The only thing that would make it more prestigious would be to throw Brazil and Argentina in the mix.

If spain had to play a derby type game like germany had to twice, spain's performance might have been scrappy in that game (would still have won it) as well.
1. A derby isn't a derby until both teams are competitive.

Poland ain't competitive. Turkey wasn't competitive until recently, and voila... it's now a derby.

2. Italy is about as derby that Spain can get. Trust me on this. They've been a thorn in our side for decades.

3. Hiddink = derby. Call it revenge for '02.

#3 is the only thing that ties this side to the past, as they've intentionally focused on the numbers on the shirt of the opponent, not the shirt.

But beating Hiddink 7-1 sure was sweet, b/c we should've been in the semis or finals in '02.

[uclacarlos]

"To pull something out of one's ass" is a colloquialism that is a compliment to the German's ability to dig deep despite the pressure and score goals against an opponent that seemed to be a team of destiny.

It means "to make up" or, in this case, "to pull out of nowhere".

The Germans had their backs to the wall against an inspired opponent and pulled a couple of goals out of their ass.
Hey asalieri:

Do you mind explaining why you would neg rep this comment? Perhaps you can ask for further clarification of an American colloquialism, which you obviously don't get.

The guy that said that Germany "pulled goals out of their ass" was complimenting them.

As in: despite having their backs to the wall, despite playing an opponent that seemed destined to win, despite having lost the momentum to an inspired Turkish side, they still had the mental fortitude to fight back and earn a goal.

Let me repeat: Germany pulling goals out of their ass = Great Job Germany.

Now do you understand? :mad:

[Cris 09]

Poland???

You mean P-o-l-a-n-d Poland?

Are you sure 'bout that?

Dude, Poland is not as bad a team as you think! I actually expected them to come out second after Germany in group B...then again, just shows how much I know!! :o

[uclacarlos]

Dude, Poland is not as bad a team as you think! I actually expected them to come out second after Germany in group B...then again, just shows how much I know!! :o
Meh. Even the US has man-handled them repeatedly.

Sure, they got screwed against Austria, but they weren't really that much of a threat.

[Asalieri]

Hey asalieri:

Do you mind explaining why you would neg rep this comment? Perhaps you can ask for further clarification of an American colloquialism, which you obviously don't get.

The guy that said that Germany "pulled goals out of their ass" was complimenting them.

As in: despite having their backs to the wall, despite playing an opponent that seemed destined to win, despite having lost the momentum to an inspired Turkish side, they still had the mental fortitude to fight back and earn a goal.

Let me repeat: Germany pulling goals out of their ass = Great Job Germany.

Now do you understand? :mad:

Is it a semantics lesson now?

Germany played a dismal game at half effort against a (dare I say it) weakened and almost playerless Turkey. They should be ashamed of that result.

You must've seen a completely different match, because by now and after so many years of being a top notch team, Germany has no excuse for playing so unenchantingly against a severely weakened team. And you'd back pat them for taking so much talent and artillery and barely being able to squeak past them?

Looks like the neg is not only justified because you're talking nonsense, but deserving of more neg because you complain about a dissenting opinion!

[uclacarlos]

You must've seen a completely different match,
No.

I was trying to explain an American colloquialism to a non-native speaker of English.

because by now and after so many years of being a top notch team, Germany has no excuse for playing so unenchantingly against a severely weakened team. And you'd back pat them for taking so much talent and artillery and barely being able to squeak past them?
No.

I was trying to explain an American colloquialism to a non-native speaker of English.

Looks like the neg is not only justified because you're talking nonsense,
Explaining colloquialisms to ppl that don't speak English is talking nonsense?

but deserving of more neg because you complain about a dissenting opinion!
How is giving a definition giving a "dissenting opinion"?

I looked up "talking out of one's ass" in numerous dictionaries, but couldn't find it. So I gave my own definition. I wasn't aware that doing so would invoke the wrath of those anal-retentive Websters Apologists like yourself:rolleyes:.

What's your agenda? Are you not able to follow a discussion?

[Cris 09]

LOL...you neg repped him because you didn't agree with his assesment on the TUR-GER match?? :eek:

I'll put it this way..the score could have been 3-0 for Germany. Both Turkish goals were massive Lehmann blunders that should have been avoided.

Yes, Turkey had better possesion during the first half but so what?

And yes, they missed several players but with all due respect to the Turkish bench, they had some serious fighting spirit and played their hearts out. But Germany did what they had to and got the result.

Was it pretty? No.

Was it effective? They are in the final, aren't they?

Credit to the Turkish NT, the manager and the subs for playing a great game and managing for the most part to disrupt Germany from playing "pretty"...in the end, who cares?

[Asalieri]

Must I really dissect your post again?

Ok.

You in bold:

"To pull something out of one's ass" is a colloquialism that is a compliment to the German's ability to dig deep despite the pressure and score goals against an opponent that seemed to be a team of destiny.

Team of Destiny? Don't tell me that isn't an added opinion! An opinion is not the same as a definition.

It means "to make up" or, in this case, "to pull out of nowhere".

Are you trying to insult the person's intelligence as well?

Or is coming off as a know-it-all d-bag a feeling you enjoy?

The Germans had their backs to the wall against an inspired opponent and pulled a couple of goals out of their ass.

It's hardly inspired the way that first goal went in, more like embarrassing to Lehmann. It's not exactly inspiring to have to play with benchers because you're team's a complete mess. It speaks more volumes about the decrease in teamwork and quality of Germany that Turkey's D team can actually beat them.

If you didn't get any of that, I can't help you nor your lack of understanding.

[Asalieri]

LOL...you neg repped him because you didn't agree with his assesment on the TUR-GER match?? :eek:

I'll put it this way..the score could have been 3-0 for Germany. Both Turkish goals were massive Lehmann blunders that should have been avoided.

Yes, Turkey had better possesion during the first half but so what?

And yes, they missed several players but with all due respect to the Turkish bench, they had some serious fighting spirit and played their hearts out. But Germany did what they had to and got the result.

Was it pretty? No.

Was it effective? They are in the final, aren't they?

Credit to the Turkish NT, the manager and the subs for playing a great game and managing for the most part to disrupt Germany from playing "pretty"...in the end, who cares?

We both know you'd rather see Germany play better than they did against Turkey. They looked disastrous out there!

A win counts, certainly... but Germany came too close to getting owned by a no-rate benchwarming team!

[Caesar]

Guys. Let. It. The. ********. Go.

Honestly, anyone would think this was the Women's Euro for all the PMSing going on in this thread.

Anyone got some updated lineups? Germany is probably pretty predictable, but it will be interesting to see how Spain lines up without Villa. Torres has been anything but convincing recently, and Cesc has been so good off the bench as an impact player it almost seems a pity to start him.

[Asalieri]

Right! I've said my peace, as was demanded of me! :)

As for Spain/Germany, I sure hope it's a good match and that they don't both decide to bunker because it's the final!

[ITALIA1982]

Germany to win the final because Spain always chokes when the going gets hot, and they will be under pressure to break a 44 year old jinx, minus David Villa.
where as Germany will be more relaxed as being in a Final is nothing new to them, they are almost always in the Finals...

[Asalieri]

Germany to win the final because Spain always chokes when the going gets hot, and they will be under pressure to break a 44 year old jinx, minus David Villa.
where as Germany will be more relaxed as being in a Final is nothing new to them, they are almost always in the Finals...

The going certainly got hot in PK's, yet... Casillas made those Italians look like amateurs taking shots!

Your post sounds like sour grapes.