PDA

View Full Version : 2008 MLS Week 12 Review


Pages : [1] 2

PVancouver
20 Jun 2008, 12:13 PM
Referee Week In Review (http://www.ussoccer-data.com/docfile/LessonsLearnedWeek_12_2008.htm)

Week 12 – ending June 15, 2008


Video Clip 4: New England at Houston (53:03)

In this clip, a player enters the match at halftime. Then, in a span of 34 minutes is involved in three questionable plays – two of which are potentially cautionable on their own. After the first foul, at 53:05, the referee exhibits his displeasure with the player’s actions. Approximately six minutes later, the same player goes in for an aerial challenge that the referee determines is fair. But, remember, the referee’s mental databank needs to register the players involved in hard challenges. Finally, some 34 minutes after the initial hard challenge, the player commits another careless (even potentially reckless on its own) foul from behind where there is no opportunity to play the ball. At this point, the referee must be able to recognize that the player is persistently infringing the Laws of the Game and caution him.

Eddie Robinson is called for two fouls over the span of 34 minutes, and Andy Geiger is getting chastised for not calling Persistent Infringement? A bit severe. Surely the NRO does not want its referees to think they must call PI on players for their second foul over a span of over half an hour. Of course, it is Eddie Robinson. The league should pass a special rule that he must enter every game with one caution already. Or maybe, he should just be given a strict warning as soon as he steps on the field. This would take care of some of the preliminaries ;) .



Video Clip 7: Colorado at Toronto (28:12)

A caution is required in this situation given, amongst other criteria, the danger facing the attacker. The defender has no regard for the safety of the opponent as he initiates a reckless upper body challenge. This challenge is similar to others provided in prior “Referee Week In Reviews” in which cautions were required. Keys to identification: the proximity to the sign boards and cement pavement (increases the likelihood of injury), the speed at which the body charge is initiated, the extension of the forearm to make contact, the “lining up” of the player by the defender just prior to the foul and the fact that if the defender does not foul the attacker, the attacker and the ball will be behind him headed to goal. Hence, a foul and caution is required as the defender’s action has to be considered as breaking down a promising attack. Note, the AR can also provide assistance to the referee if he has electronic flags and has a good view of the situation as contact is made. By beeping the referee, the AR would be sending a signal that he has seen a foul. The AR can also provide a “silent signal” that the foul is worthy of a caution by patting his breast pocket indicating his opinion that the foul involves misconduct.

Well, I’ve always wondered what the material was in Toronto that caused players to slip hard into the signboards. Cement? This doesn’t seem to me to be a very safe material to have within a few feet of an MLS field. And why do signboards need to be so damn close to the field? Take a look at Video Clip 8, and then tell me why the touchline signboards need to that close to the field.

“The speed at which the body charge is initiated” was not great.

“The fact that if the defender does not foul the attacker, the attacker and the ball will be behind him headed to goal.” Jarrod Smith is going to out run Marvell Wynne to the ball? I doubt it.

“Hence, a foul and caution is required as the defender’s action has to be considered as breaking down a promising attack.” No, I suspect Wynne believed he was applying a fair shoulder-to-shoulder charge to Smith. He did so to prevent Smith from keeping the ball in play, as it was about to roll into touch off the foot of Smith. To call this a tactical foul on Wynne’s part to deny attacking play is quite a stretch. Wynne could have forced the ball out with a slide tackle but he would have likely given up possession in doing so (just as he would with a tactical foul). And the play would not have been any safer for Smith.

The charge appears much worse in the second angle than the angle the CR had. Note that Smith does not actually hit the signboard with much force. (Unfortunately for Wynne, despite the hard charge, Smith was still able to get a foot on the ball and keep it in play. Carver will probably give him demerits for that.)

Jarrod Smith does hit the pavement pretty hard. Can some explain to me why this hard pavement is there, so close to the field? Canada and MLS should get a red cards for this. What if Smith’s head hit this pavement. I shudder to think. The issues of this pavement, and of signboards being so close to the field of play all around the league, need to be seriously addressed if MLS actually is concerned about the safety of players.



Video Clip 9: Colorado at Toronto (24:05)

This clip presents a case in which a handling is called that will result in a free kick being taken just over 18 yards from goal in the danger zone. The goalkeeper attempts to gather a ball but mishandles it and it skirts out to the top of the penalty area. The referee, in this clip, awards the attacking team with a free kick as he judges that the goalkeeper handled the ball outside the penalty area boundary line. A caution is also issued to the goalkeeper for unsporting behavior. The foul call then leads to a dangerous free kick and potential encroachment.

In reviewing the tape, it is not clear that there is a handling offense. It is certainly not clear enough to award a free kick approximately 18 yards from goal. To make such a call, the referee and/or AR must be certain and positioned so as to have a clear view of the offense (position of the ball relative to the penalty area line at the exact time contact is made with the goalkeeper’s hands). The resulting yellow card would also have been avoided.

Key learning points:

· Ball on the line

According to Law 1 – The Field of Play, the “lines belong to the areas of which they are boundaries.” Given this, the ball will be considered to be inside the penalty area if any part of the ball is crossing the plane of the boundary line. Consequently, the goalkeeper may legally handle the ball as long as any part of the ball is crossing the penalty area line whether on the ground or in the air.

· Goalkeeper position

The position of the goalkeeper’s body plays no role in determining the handling offense. The position of the ball relative to the penalty area markings when it is touched by the goalkeeper’s hands is the determining factor in deciding if a handling offence occurred. The goalkeeper’s entire body can be outside the penalty area. A handling offense occurs at the time the goalkeeper’s hand(s) contact the ball while the ball is fully outside the penalty area boundary line.

· The referee must be better positioned

To make the call, the referee is not strategically positioned to have a clear view of where the ball was when it was touched by the goalkeeper’s hand(s). A wider and closer view would make the decision more convincing. Watch at 24:10 on the game clock as the referee stops his run to the penalty area (possibly anticipating that the goalkeeper will cleanly control the ball which does not occur) causing him to be further from the decision.

· AR involvement

The official best positioned to make a determination as to whether the ball was handled outside the penalty area is the AR. But, like the referee, the AR must be certain of the handling offense before intervening. If the AR intervenes it should be with a raised flag with a slight wiggle.

· The free kick

It is difficult to ascertain whether players break from the wall prior to the first movement of the ball on the free kick. If the referee is of the opinion the players moved forward and within ten yards of the ball prior to the first pass, the referee would be justified in awarding a retake of the free kick for encroachment.


I agree that a caution was very harsh.

I am in the camp that a goalkeeper should not be able to touch the ball with his hands outside of the penalty area (I would artificially extend this area to include the area immediately behind the penalty area), even if the ball itself is on the line.

Using this as a basis for judgment, Preston Burpo clearly handled the ball outside the penalty area.

The LOTG say it is a foul if a player “handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)”. It is apparently the goalkeeper that has to be within his own penalty area, not the ball. The Advice to Referees does not provide any additional clarification.

Suppose a field player handled a ball that was on the line at the top of the penalty area. Should a penalty kick be awarded? I would say yes if the player’s hand was above the line or inside the penalty area when he touched the ball. I would say no if the player’s hand was outside the penalty area when he touched the ball. Why should it be any different for a goalkeeper? The location of the handling should be based on where the player actually handles the ball, not whether the ball itself is or is not “in” the penalty area.

PVancouver
20 Jun 2008, 02:17 PM
Andy Geiger

Mark Geiger, sorry.

GOOOOAL!!
20 Jun 2008, 02:25 PM
Referee Week In Review (http://www.ussoccer-data.com/docfile/LessonsLearnedWeek_12_2008.htm)

Week 12 – ending June 15, 2008




Eddie Robinson is called for two fouls over the span of 34 minutes, and Andy Geiger is getting chastised for not calling Persistent Infringement? A bit severe. Surely the NRO does not want its referees to think they must call PI on players for their second foul over a span of over half an hour. Of course, it is Eddie Robinson. The league should pass a special rule that he must enter every game with one caution already. Or maybe, he should just be given a strict warning as soon as he steps on the field. This would take care of some of the preliminaries ;) .





Well, I’ve always wondered what the material was in Toronto that caused players to slip hard into the signboards. Cement? This doesn’t seem to me to be a very safe material to have within a few feet of an MLS field. And why do signboards need to be so damn close to the field? Take a look at Video Clip 8, and then tell me why the touchline signboards need to that close to the field.

“The speed at which the body charge is initiated” was not great.

“The fact that if the defender does not foul the attacker, the attacker and the ball will be behind him headed to goal.” Jarrod Smith is going to out run Marvell Wynne to the ball? I doubt it.

“Hence, a foul and caution is required as the defender’s action has to be considered as breaking down a promising attack.” No, I suspect Wynne believed he was applying a fair shoulder-to-shoulder charge to Smith. He did so to prevent Smith from keeping the ball in play, as it was about to roll into touch off the foot of Smith. To call this a tactical foul on Wynne’s part to deny attacking play is quite a stretch. Wynne could have forced the ball out with a slide tackle but he would have likely given up possession in doing so (just as he would with a tactical foul). And the play would not have been any safer for Smith.

The charge appears much worse in the second angle than the angle the CR had. Note that Smith does not actually hit the signboard with much force. (Unfortunately for Wynne, despite the hard charge, Smith was still able to get a foot on the ball and keep it in play. Carver will probably give him demerits for that.)

Jarrod Smith does hit the pavement pretty hard. Can some explain to me why this hard pavement is there, so close to the field? Canada and MLS should get a red cards for this. What if Smith’s head hit this pavement. I shudder to think. The issues of this pavement, and of signboards being so close to the field of play all around the league, need to be seriously addressed if MLS actually is concerned about the safety of players.






I agree that a caution was very harsh.

I am in the camp that a goalkeeper should not be able to touch the ball with his hands outside of the penalty area (I would artificially extend this area to include the area immediately behind the penalty area), even if the ball itself is on the line.

Using this as a basis for judgment, Preston Burpo clearly handled the ball outside the penalty area.

The LOTG say it is a foul if a player “handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)”. It is apparently the goalkeeper that has to be within his own penalty area, not the ball. The Advice to Referees does not provide any additional clarification.

Suppose a field player handled a ball that was on the line at the top of the penalty area. Should a penalty kick be awarded? I would say yes if the player’s hand was above the line or inside the penalty area when he touched the ball. I would say no if the player’s hand was outside the penalty area when he touched the ball. Why should it be any different for a goalkeeper? The location of the handling should be based on where the player actually handles the ball, not whether the ball itself is or is not “in” the penalty area.

First - At this level, the R is expected to understand the players tendencies and remember what they have done during the game. Three hard challenges from behind by a defender should be recognized and dealt with. How many more times will the attacker get knocked down before he retaliates?

Second - Wynne isn't playing the ball at any point in the play. He lines the guy up, and while they are running full speed, coils, drops his body and throws a shoulder into him. He could have just run with him down the line or just bodied up and ushered him out of play. I agree it needed a caution. I looked like a typical small High School game play were linebackers get put on the soccer team to field 11 players and they think just because the ball is in the area, they get to run through people.

Third - It's not basketball. The location of the player is irrelevant to the position of the ball. PV if you followed your logic, you'd have to call a goal if the GK, while standing in the goal, reached out and caught the ball before it crossed the line. Or call for a Throw-in when a player has one foot off the field and kicks the ball with the other foot when it is on the field. Soccer makes it very simple..... if the ball is completely over the line, it's outside the area whether it be the PA or the field.

vabeacher
20 Jun 2008, 02:47 PM
According to Law 1 – The Field of Play, the “lines belong to the areas of which they are boundaries.”

This concept is easy enough to understand for the sidelines and goal lines, but becomes a little fuzzier for lines separating to active areas of the playing field. I totally agree that when the ball on its way out of the penalty area, and a keeper handles a ball which is right on the line, that line is part of the penalty area. If a defender were to touch the ball in the same spot, it would be a PK.

However, what if play is coming the other way? An attack is headed into the penalty area. A defender now handles the ball right on the line, before the ball has ever fully crossed the line and entered the penalty area. Would you call a PK or a DFK right at the line?

PVancouver
20 Jun 2008, 02:48 PM
First - At this level, the R is expected to understand the players tendencies and remember what they have done during the game. Three hard challenges from behind by a defender should be recognized and dealt with. How many more times will the attacker get knocked down before he retaliates?

The second hard challenge was not even called as a foul. It probably should have been, but it wasn't. The case for PI here is very weak.

Second - Wynne isn't playing the ball at any point in the play. He lines the guy up, and while they are running full speed, coils, drops his body and throws a shoulder into him. He could have just run with him down the line or just bodied up and ushered him out of play. I agree it needed a caution. I looked like a typical small High School game play were linebackers get put on the soccer team to field 11 players and they think just because the ball is in the area, they get to run through people.

I agree he could have used less force. I would not have been terribly upset if Wynne was cautioned. What has me upset are some of the unjustified reasons given that a caution for this play was mandatory. Including, in particular, that the charge was unsafe because of wholly unnecessary and unsafe field conditions that have been artificially put into place by the owners of the stadium. Steps could be taken to make the conditions safer but for whatever reason have not been.

Third - It's not basketball. The location of the player is irrelevant to the position of the ball. PV if you followed your logic, you'd have to call a goal if the GK, while standing in the goal, reached out and caught the ball before it crossed the line. Or call for a Throw-in when a player has one foot off the field and kicks the ball with the other foot when it is on the field. Soccer makes it very simple..... if the ball is completely over the line, it's outside the area whether it be the PA or the field.

Well, I am certainly not arguing this. The position of the player and the position of the ball are certainly two different things. The place where a player touches a ball is a third position. The Law refers to the first, the Review goes by the second, and I go by the third. I won't argue that it is clear who is right.

PVancouver
20 Jun 2008, 02:58 PM
According to Law 1 – The Field of Play, the “lines belong to the areas of which they are boundaries.”

This concept is easy enough to understand for the sidelines and goal lines, but becomes a little fuzzier for lines separating to active areas of the playing field. I totally agree that when the ball on its way out of the penalty area, and a keeper handles a ball which is right on the line, that line is part of the penalty area. If a defender were to touch the ball in the same spot, it would be a PK.

However, what if play is coming the other way? An attack is headed into the penalty area. A defender now handles the ball right on the line, before the ball has ever fully crossed the line and entered the penalty area. Would you call a PK or a DFK right at the line?

It isn't fuzzy. All sections of the field include all of their borders. Your example would be better if the defender handled the ball just after the ball had just reached the line, without ever reaching over the line himself.

"If a defender were to touch the ball in the same spot, it would be a PK."

I think it could be argued that if a defender, who was completely off the field, handled the ball while it was on the goal line and in play, but only made contact with the ball off the field of play, that no foul could be called and that the worst that could be done is a card given for UB.

"A penalty kick is awarded if any of the above ten offences is committed by a player inside his own penalty area, irrespective of the position of the ball, provided it is in play."

(Please understand that even I would be reluctant to get this picayune enforcing about the LOTG, at least as things stand currently.)

Notice that this reinforces the idea that it is not the location of the ball that is important, but the location of the infringement.

GOOOOAL!!
20 Jun 2008, 03:27 PM
Events that occur around the position of the ball are very simple. Sometimes people make it difficult.

The line is part of the area it defines. (PA lines are part of the PA, Goal Line is part of the field of play, etc)
If any part of the ball is above the line (extended vertically) then the whole ball is considered to be in that area of the field.
It doesn't matter where the players are or which direction the ball is headed.

You don't break the ball into slices and determine which part of the ball is being touched and if that part of the ball is in the PA or not. The whole of the ball is in the area that is being defined by the the line.

On a throw-in the ball doesn't have to be fully inside the line to be considered on the field. It only needs to break the outermost plane made by the line.
When any part of the ball is above the PA line, it is in the PA. GK can touch it with their hands (with exceptions) and field players cannot, regardless of where their bodies or hands are.

It is a very simple concept that some try to make difficult and complicated.

PVancouver
20 Jun 2008, 03:38 PM
It is a very simple concept that some try to make difficult and complicated.Maybe that is because some of us can't find this concept in writing anywhere.

Going back to my original example, would you call a PK in this situation:

Suppose a field player handled a ball that was on the line at the top of the penalty area, and the player’s hand was outside the penalty area when he touched the ball. Assume the player himself was completely outside of the penalty area.

GOOOOAL!!
20 Jun 2008, 03:38 PM
However, what if play is coming the other way? An attack is headed into the penalty area. A defender now handles the ball right on the line, before the ball has ever fully crossed the line and entered the penalty area. Would you call a PK or a DFK right at the line?

PK
It is the position of the ball because that is what is being "fouled". The player cannot commit a foul on himself so it is technically committed against the ball. Because the ball is on the line, it is in the PA and therefore the foul occurred in the PA..... PK.

This is the same as if a defender who is outside the PA pulls the shirt of an attacker who is standing on the line. The attacker is being fouled and since he is in the PA, it is PK.

GOOOOAL!!
20 Jun 2008, 03:41 PM
Maybe that is because some of us can't find this concept in writing anywhere.

They forgot to write Law 18 (Common Sense) into the book.

Gary V
20 Jun 2008, 03:51 PM
Maybe that is because some of us can't find this concept in writing anywhere.Please find where it says that if a player is sent off, the team plays down one.

As we continue to try to inform you, NOT EVERYTHING IS WRITTEN DOWN. Sorry to shout, but you just don't seem to be getting it.

PVancouver
20 Jun 2008, 03:57 PM
PK
It is the position of the ball because that is what is being "fouled". The player cannot commit a foul on himself so it is technically committed against the ball. Because the ball is on the line, it is in the PA and therefore the foul occurred in the PA..... PK.

This is the same as if a defender who is outside the PA pulls the shirt of an attacker who is standing on the line. The attacker is being fouled and since he is in the PA, it is PK.

If this is true, I stand corrected. Geiger obviously did screw up big time.

So if I foul an attacker who has any part of his body over the PA, a PK should be called.

I better be more careful.

PVancouver
20 Jun 2008, 04:00 PM
Please find where it says that if a player is sent off, the team plays down one.

As we continue to try to inform you, NOT EVERYTHING IS WRITTEN DOWN. Sorry to shout, but you just don't seem to be getting it.

Yes, this should be in the Laws.

I suspect it soon will be, along with the fact that the two teams should wear distinguishing colors.

Who is "we"?

Gary V
20 Jun 2008, 04:05 PM
Who is "we"?Many of those corresponding on this board.

NHRef
20 Jun 2008, 04:16 PM
If this is true, I stand corrected. Geiger obviously did screw up big time.

So if I foul an attacker who has any part of his body over the PA, a PK should be called.

I better be more careful.

The only "fuzzy" line for me personally is the mid-field line, which half of the field is that in? :rolleyes:

If the CR (and AR) thought the entire ball is out of the area, COMPLETELY over the COMPLETE line, then its a good call. If any milli-meter of the ball is over the edge of the line, it was not a good call. Can't tell for sure in the video, but it looked like it wasn't out all the way.

For fouls its the same, where the infringement occurred, a trip outside the PA where the "tripped player" lands in the PA is not a PK.

MassachusettsRef
20 Jun 2008, 04:21 PM
Yes, this should be in the Laws.

I suspect it soon will be, along with the fact that the two teams should where distinguishing colors.Yeah, because everyone involved with the sport has been so confused for the last 120+ years and these changes must be made "soon."

gosellit
20 Jun 2008, 04:33 PM
Yeah, because everyone involved with the sport has been so confused for the last 120+ years and these changes must be made "soon."

LOL

I'm sure that when they were kicking the Dane's head around, each village wore distinctive colors, or maybe different hats.:rolleyes:

PVancouver
20 Jun 2008, 04:40 PM
Actually, the real reason this isn't in the laws is because they originally went shirts and skins.

Jasonma
24 Jun 2008, 01:53 PM
then Jarrod Smith is going to out run Marvell Wynne to the ball? I doubt it....Smith...Smith...Smith...Smith...Smith’s head

:rolleyes:

Wow, for somebody who likes to pick and complain about every single thing the USSF does it might help if you got the player's name right. If Wynne is putting that kind of hit on Jarrod Smith he's going to have a lot mroe to deal with than the USSF, considering Smith is one of his teammates.

The player who Wynne knocked down was Colin Clark of the Colorado Rapids, and yes, he's fairly fast so it would have been a footrace to the ball.

Wreave
24 Jun 2008, 02:15 PM
I am in the camp that a goalkeeper should not be able to touch the ball with his hands outside of the penalty area (I would artificially extend this area to include the area immediately behind the penalty area), even if the ball itself is on the line.

If you decide to leave that camp and apply the LOTG, let us know.

As others have said, this is a very simple concept. Position of the ball is everything. Position of the players is meaningless. If any sliver of the ball is over any sliver of the PA line, then the keeper may handle the ball. Likewise, if a defender handles the ball, it's a PK. In neither case does it matter where the body of the player is, or even where his hands are as he handles the ball. Was the ball handled? Was the ball inside the PA? Simple questions.

I do agree with USSF that the ref blew this call - first, by making it at all. That was the AR's call to make. I actually agree with the ref's positioning choices - running further in on a ball that's almost definitely going to be cleanly handled by the keeper is very risk and could leave the CR 30 yards back on a quick turn. So, the ref pulled up, the keeper apparently handled the ball - the CR should then make eye contact with the AR. If there was a foul, the AR was (or should have been) properly positioned to see it. If not, no flag and play on.

Instead, the ref makes a dubious (and, by all appearances from the video, wrong) call from distance and at a terrible angle.

That having been said, I think the card is pretty compulsory at this level once the foul has been called. It could only have been avoided by not calling the handling.

In my youth games, I would almost definitely *not* have cautioned the handling (presuming it really happened), but would most certainly have cautioned the kicking of the ball off the sidelines. I believe in allowing free kicks and punishing FRD/DRP. If the keeper thinks the yellow is worth trading for, that's his call. However, I realize that in MLS you are not allowed to take quick kicks in a forward direction, as a defender is always allowed to stand right in front of the ball unless a wall is set up.