Euro 2008 and Midfield Formations (Multiple Euro R's)

[Nutmeg]

This year's European championship is putting the twin DMid formational approach to the test. Spain, Portugal, and especially the Netherlands have earned impressive results and each team has primarily relied on only one traditional defensive midfielder.

Obviously the tournament isn't over yet and a team that uses multiple players who are comfortable in a defensive midfield role like Italy may yet emerge as the champion.

Still, given the first round results, I can't help but thinking that the twin DMid setup may have been a trendy formation that has seen its time come and go in International Football. In its place, I see teams employing midfields where one DMid is primarily responsible and every other midfielder provides defensive support.

Countries that are being aggressive in their formations and tactics by employing more players capable of creating and attacking have been to this point more successful. They have learned how to adapt to and take advantage of the dual DMid setup, and those teams that do use DMids are struggling to mount creative attacks of their own.

If the US were to employ a system similar to Portugal, Spain, or the Netherlands, it would IMO look more like this:

----------- Altidore ------ Donovan

---- Rogers ---------- Adu -------- Kljestan

---------------------- Edu

Pearce ------ Spector ------ Gooch ------ Dolo

--------------------- Howard

I've inserted some personal player preferences here, but the idea is that only one of Edu, Bradley, Clark, or Mastroeni would be playing and our attacking midfielders would be comfortable both out wide and cutting in centrally.

In the past when a formation like this has been proposed, the counter argument can be summed up that it doesn't have enough defensive teeth. This year's Euro competition is IMO debunking that myth and proving that an attack which forces opponents to defend is a team's best defense.

[sidefootsitter]

Portugal and the Netherlands play wth a single forward in a 4-2-3-1/4-1-4-1 Hybrid.

Scolari's 2-way mid is Moutinho, van Basten's is Engelaar.

Big Phil will push Bosingwa forward from his right into what almost looks like 3-6-1, while keeping Ferreira on the left back.

Van Basten will do the opposite switch with van Bronckhorst going up and Boulahrouz staying back.

Donadoni played some odd formations from traditional "pointy triangle" with Pirlo on top of Ambrosini and Gattuso to a "flat triangle" with Perotta and Pirlo in more advanced positions, with Gattuso keeping back.

He also pushed his fullbacks forward in sequence - against Romania, Grosso went up as a de facto left mid while Zambrotta began to do likewise in the middle of the half.

Once again, three defenders and one defensive mid stayed back, so this looked like 3-4-3/3-6-1 or, with Pirlo on top with Toni, a 3-5-2.

Germany has played a Flat-3 midfield with Frings deep and 2 strikers. Lahm went forward a lot, which turned this into 3-5-2 when on offense.

[Maximum Optimal]

I think the distinction between playing with two deep-lying mids and two defensive mids is very important. No one would call Pirlo a defensive mid. We don't have anyone that good. But we have a number of guys who can play deep mid or box-to-box and provide some semblance of coherence.

[Maximum Optimal]

I've inserted some personal player preferences here, but the idea is that only one of Edu, Bradley, Clark, or Mastroeni would be playing and our attacking midfielders would be comfortable both out wide and cutting in centrally.



I find it amazing that this has become a point of debate. I agree fully with the analysis.

[sidefootsitter]

I think the distinction between playing with two deep-lying mids and two defensive mids is very important. No one would call Pirlo a defensive mid. We don't have anyone that good. But we have a number of guys who can play deep mid or box-to-box and provide some semblance of coherence.
Personally, I would have tried Rossi in a CAM position just behind the strikers.

I think there's too big a of a gap between the forwards and deep midfield for Donadoni but you will get that often with Pirlo on top of the "pointy triangle".

Ancelotti drops Kaka and Seedorf deeper to fill in that gap in the middle and will push his fullbacks into at least a midfield and often a winger role.

Donadoni put in Perotta to play in front of Pirlo vs. Romania with Camoranesi giving him an option on the right and Grosso on the left, so it was 3-5-2 offensively.

BTW, in essense, there's nothng wrong with the Empty Bucket if you allow one of your central mids to push up into the hole in the middle, which is how the Bradleys played it vs. Barbados.

Unfortunately, in bigger games, Bob always keeps Mike back. In that case, the US 4-4-2 looks like the French Euro'08 EB where Toulalan and Makelele just don't give any offensive support worth mentioning.

When Domenech played Vieira there at the last World Cup, Patrick was a quintessential 2-way/Y mid out of that position.

But with him injured, the head coach didn't adjust his tactics and Toulalan can't fit that role.

[Maximum Optimal]

In obvious ways France misses Zidane. In more subtle ways they miss Vieira too. He is a great defensive player. But in the last WC he also did a terrific job of picking his spots to move into the attack.

[sidefootsitter]

With Zidane, Domenech played a 4-4-1-1, with Zidane just behind Henry and without any defensive responsibilities.

The two wings - Malouda and Ribery - did a lot of running to cover up for Zidane, while Vieira went as a (conservative) 2-way mid.

It was still not a very high scoring offense, so what saved France there was their excellent defense but, with Sagnol, Gallas and Thuram two years older, that back four was springing leaks left and right at the Euros.

[DaPrince84]

In obvious ways France misses Zidane. In more subtle ways they miss Vieira too. He is a great defensive player. But in the last WC he also did a terrific job of picking his spots to move into the attack.
Vieira's strength has always been because he was able to move up into the attack... Bradley doesnt trust any of his CMs to do that, even feilhaber

[FnordUnitedFC]

With Zidane, Domenech played a 4-4-1-1, with Zidane just behind Henry and without any defensive responsibilities.


Bob would have benched him for his lack of defensive capabilities, because he doesn't play "the right way". And 60% of BS posters would have agreed.

[NGV]

If the US were to employ a system similar to Portugal, Spain, or the Netherlands, it would IMO look more like this:

----------- Altidore ------ Donovan

---- Rogers ---------- Adu -------- Kljestan
---------------------- Edu

Pearce ------ Spector ------ Gooch ------ Dolo

--------------------- Howard

That doesn't look much like the Netherlands' formation at all. They played a 4-2-3-1 with Van Nistelrooy as lone forward.

Neither Engelaar nor De Jong play a role that's anything like Adu could be expected to, so I'm not sure how you can compare your hypothetical formation to the Dutch one.

[NGV]

BTW, in essense, there's nothng wrong with the Empty Bucket if you allow one of your central mids to push up into the hole in the middle, which is how the Bradleys played it vs. Barbados.

Unfortunately, in bigger games, Bob always keeps Mike back. In that case, the US 4-4-2 looks like the French Euro'08 EB where Toulalan and Makelele just don't give any offensive support worth mentioning.

I don't think it's that Bradley was being "kept back" - it's that he can't get forward much, or be effective doing so, in games where the US is being dominated. If the Netherlands played a team that was significantly stronger at every position, I doubt that Engelaar would get involved in much offense (of course, no such team exists).

[lurking]

That doesn't look much like the Netherlands' formation at all. They played a 4-2-3-1 with Van Nistelrooy as lone forward.

Neither Engelaar nor De Jong play a role that's anything like Adu could be expected to, so I'm not sure how you can compare your hypothetical formation to the Dutch one.

Yeah.

Italy this last game played a 4-3-1-2 while France played a very Bradleyesque 4-4-2.

Spain as I recall has been playing a pretty flat midfield in a 4-4-2. Croatia more of a 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-3-2, depending what game your talking about.

As for Nutmeg's lineup, Ill just make my obligatory comment that Adu is not a midfielder and shouldn't be played there.

[Bob Morocco]

I don't think it's that Bradley was being "kept back" - it's that he can't get forward much, or be effective doing so, in games where the US is being dominated. If the Netherlands played a team that was significantly stronger at every position, I doubt that Engelaar would get involved in much offense (of course, no such team exists).

Interesting hypothesis, wrong, but interesting.

[Martin Fischer]

This year's European championship is putting the twin DMid formational approach to the test. Spain, Portugal, and especially the Netherlands have earned impressive results and each team has primarily relied on only one traditional defensive midfielder.

...

In the past when a formation like this has been proposed, the counter argument can be summed up that it doesn't have enough defensive teeth. This year's Euro competition is IMO debunking that myth and proving that an attack which forces opponents to defend is a team's best defense.

Well, maybe it is a matter of semantics, but your basic point is incorrect. Spain and Portugal both play with two two-way mids; only Holland at times has gone to a lineup that is similar to the proposed Edu/Adu central mid combination. Most obviously, despite the fact that Xavi is more skilled than almost anyone the USMNT can throw out there, positionally, he has never come close to scoring the number of goals that Michael Bradley did this year. Thus, any analysis that says Michael Bradley is a "dmid" while Xavi is an attacking mid is fundamentally flawed in my mind.

[Parmigiano]

Yeah, Holland is playing a 4231 right now, with De Jong and that other huge dude the holding Dmids.

I like Nutmeg's enthusiasm, but it's exaggerated. The US doesn't have anywhere near Holland's or Spain's or Italy's talent, yet we are going to play with just one Dmid or holding mid?

Edu+Adu in the middle, alone, would get run over against elite competition. Who's going to get Freddy the ball? Who's going to shut down an elite midfield?

Italy has way better talent, yet they chose to play very covered in the middle. You may not like the style, but there are decades of wisdom reflected in it, and decades of trophies in the can.

I think it's simple. We play a 4231, with our best three tweeners jsut behind Altidore. Who the two D or holding mids are seems to be the question on most people's minds here, with Bradley polarzing opinion. But we need a strong, robust pairing back there or we will get walked all over.

Doesn't mean it has to be two destroyers...but we need a strong presence there with two tough (preferably big) and complete players -- specially if we have all midgets occuping the three-man attacking midfield line.

[involution]

Edu+Adu in the middle, alone, would get run over against elite competition. Who's going to get Freddy the ball? Who's going to shut down an elite midfield?

Italy has way better talent, yet they chose to play very covered in the middle. You may not like the style, but there are decades of wisdom reflected in it, and decades of trophies in the can.

we need a strong presence there with two tough (preferably big) and complete players -- specially if we have all midgets occuping the three-man attacking midfield line.

:D:D comedy. I couldn't agree more.

[russ]

Another thought could be that against teams which are more likely to expose our central defenders,we have to ensure they are not exposed by placing two covering mids in front.

Our midfield play will be stronger when we have a better #1 pairing than Bocanyewu and Goochanegra.

[involution]

gooch should stay.

[russ]

Yes,he will.

But he and Boca or Demerit or Conrad or Parkhurst or Spector will still need two mids in front of them.

[Sachsen]

----------- Altidore ------ Donovan

---- Rogers ---------- Adu -------- Kljestan

---------------------- Edu

Pearce ------ Spector ------ Gooch ------ Dolo

--------------------- Howard

This wasn't the main gist of your post (which I agree with, by the way), but I have to nitpick here -- hard to argue for Rogers over Beasley "based on current form" and then pick Spector over Boca. ;)