Which is the more successful team: Italy or Germany?

[squidward123]

Baloon d'Or, imho, is not the best thing to value players, as long as it's assigned from journalists. I do give more credits to Fifa World Player, which is assigned from coaches and captains. And, obviously, statistics doesn't lie, so Germany is ahead.

ballon d'or is assigned by journalists who are in a trusted group of france football.

fifa wpoy is more geared toward commercial benefits and coaches and captains do not watch anywhere near as much football as journalists. footballers get away from football when they aren't playing and coaches presumably don't watch what they don't need to for their own team.

And the commercial importance in days gone by wasn't there as much as now. If you take out the last 15 or so years I would say the awards are much more accurate FOR BOTH awards. This virtually removes Fifa wpoy from the picture.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. I was just using an indicator there.

Personally the german players have in general been slightly better for me because of the greater consistency over the years.


Anyway, as I have read all thread, I can assume that we Italians are happy with our 4-1 record, while Germans are happy with their 3-3 record. So what? :p

Yeah...there is hardly a difference between the two countries.

The only thing is italy have been less consistent. It's not often italy put together two semifinals in a row.

[Gregoriak]

While I agree that Germany has the overall better record in these major tournaments combined, I find it interesting that Germany has NEVER beaten Italy in the WC. Italy has beaten Germany twice in SF, once in a final and they tied once in the second group stage in '78. If Germany was SOOOOO far better than Italy as many here say, then once in the history of the sport, they would have beaten them on the biggest stage. What Germany excels at is NEVER getting beat by a lesser team something that Italy has had problems with throughout their history. When it comes to the big matches vs the top opponents, I'd put Italy's history right up there with Germany.


There is a very important prerequsite for Italy to beat Germany in a major tournament, though, which always gets overlooked. Whenever Italy meets Germany and beats them, in the round before Germany had to go through a very tiresome and exhausting extra-time game plus penalty-shoot out against a very tough opponent while Italy always had an easier game against easier opposition that was decided after 90 minutes.

Check for yourself:

1970
- Germany beats England 3-2 after 120 minutes in extreme Mexican heat at noon
- Italy beat Mexico in 90 minutes

1982
- Germany beat France on penalties
- Italy beat Poland in 90 minutes

2006
- Germany beat Argentina on penalties
- Italy beat ... I forgot whom, but 90 minutes and easy opponent

Whenever Italy does not have this advantage, games against Germany always end in a draw (always group games):

1962 0-0

1978 0-0

1988 1-1

1996 0-0

Hence arguing Italy is somewhat superior head-to-head is a far stretch considering the facts.

[Khaloisha]

Oh come on, you can't recover in 4 days? Some arguments are completely ridicolous, like the one above. In the end we beat you when it counts, and this is all that matter. :rolleyes:

[Reazzurro90]

congrats on disqualifying your entire post...



Really....

In what tournament before 1966 was England a real contender in, out of curiosity? :rolleyes:

[mattteo]

Germany

[Gregoriak]

Oh come on, you can't recover in 4 days? Some arguments are completely ridicolous, like the one above. In the end we beat you when it counts, and this is all that matter. :rolleyes:

What I forgot to add was that the games vs. Italy in '70 and '06 too were going into extra-time. Of course you can ignore that playing two extra-time games against two very strong teams within 4 days has a decisive fatigue effect on players in the latter stages of a tournament like a World Cup or a Euro Cup or you might just accept it.

What you can't ignore though is that Italy is incapable of beating Germany when Germany did not go into extra-time the game before.

[NickyViola]

I am talking about overall over the past 50 years, not just these days.

Me too.

Those stats show something. Italy's ballon d'or records are nowhere near Germany's.

I'm not talking about how much hype 2 or 3, or even 7 or 8, players get. If you are trying to convince me that Germany has better marketing than Italy well, I already agree.

[Khaloisha]

What you can't ignore though is that Italy is incapable of beating Germany when Germany did not go into extra-time the game before.

This goes both ways. :rolleyes:

Anyway, our record against you is the follow:

Match played: 29

Italy (14-8-7)
Germany (7-8-14)

So against you we have the edge. :D
To add to those, you had never beat us in a official competition. :rolleyes:

[squidward123]

I'm not talking about how much hype 2 or 3, or even 7 or 8, players get. If you are trying to convince me that Germany has better marketing than Italy well, I already agree.

firstly it's many more than 7 or 8. the 7 wins alone of the award have been amongst 5 players. There are many more in the runner up and 3rd place categories.

I don't think marketing played anywhere near as much a part in the profiles of players or in the decisions of journalists for ballon d'or as they do now.

[NickyViola]

firstly it's many more than 7 or 8. the 7 wins alone of the award have been amongst 5 players. There are many more in the runner up and 3rd place categories.

I don't think marketing played anywhere near as much a part in the profiles of players or in the decisions of journalists for ballon d'or as they do now.

I'm saying that I'm not talking about 7 or 8 highly ranked players per season. I'm saying that, in my opinion, Italy produces more high-level players, over the long term, than any other European country.

[Lusankya]

This goes both ways. :rolleyes:

Anyway, our record against you is the follow:

Match played: 29

Italy (14-8-7)
Germany (7-8-14)

So against you we have the edge. :D
To add to those, you had never beat us in a official competition. :rolleyes:
Well, I won't say Germany had archieved anything against you, but if you look at the last 50 Years the record is much more balanced (6-7-5 for Italy). There some nasty losses from much earlier, when Germany wasn't a great football nation. That's the reason our record vs england is so ********ed up. (9-0 loss in 1909 for example)

[Khaloisha]

Well, I won't say Germany had archieved anything against you, but if you look at the last 50 Years the record is much more balanced (6-7-5 for Italy). There some nasty losses from much earlier, when Germany wasn't a great football nation. That's the reason our record vs england is so ********ed up. (9-0 loss in 1909 for example)

I posted the records just because:

Hence arguing Italy is somewhat superior head-to-head is a far stretch considering the facts.

It seems in this thread that we can't do anything right. But statistics are there, and even if you strip the WWII previous match, we had never been beaten by you in an official competition. :)

[Lusankya]

H2H goes clearly to Italy. But I think that was not the intention of the thread.

[NickyViola]

I agree.

[ztnjv]

Sorry, I find this question kind of silly.

I'm Italian American and a big fan of Italy but it's clear, statistically speaking, that Germany have been more CONSISTENT than Italy...though less successful in absolute terms of accomplishment in WC play.

This consistency shows up in the fact that they have gotten further in the tounament MORE TIMES than Italy over the years. It also shows up in Euro play where the margin for error is smaller. Being flat here and there in WC play can be overcome...being flat in Euro play can be more costly since you're more likely to meet a team that's up to the task on any given day in the Euros.

In the 1996 and 2004 Euros, Italy were more than capable of going all the way. But they got bogged down in group play. This is not very different from this current Euro where Italy have not impressed...yet they made it through because France and Romania failed to win any games. In 1996 and 2004, dominating yet painful draws (like against GER in 96) and "the wrong result" in the other fixture on the last day of group play cost Italy dearly. When they didn't trip up in group in 2000, they went all the way to final.

Consistency is the key and Germany has that over Italy. That's the difference.

Germany always seems to be a consistent 9 out of 10 while Italy's game quality ranges from 7 to 10 out of 10 depending on the day.

Due to this consistency, Germany has managed to not prematurely exit tournaments like Italy has at times. Also, Germany's overall much, much better record in PK's has helped them a lot.

[NickyViola]

PKs play sadly (ridiculously?) a huge role in these international tournaments and, so, must be factored in.

[ztnjv]

PKs play sadly (ridiculously?) a huge role in these international tournaments and, so, must be factored in.

Of course. Yet, I feel somewhat compelled to mention its relevance in evaluating teams.

Italy in PK's:

90 SF vs. ARG (lost). Clearly the better team and wound up missing a final vs. Germany (who were somewhat outplayed by ENG but also won on PKs)

94 Final vs. BRA (lost)
98 QF vs. FRA (lost)...France went on to win it all.
06 vs. FRA (won...finally)

Germany

82 SF vs. FRA (won) reached final and lost
86 QF vs. MEX (won) reached final and lost
90 SF vs. ENG (won) reached final and won
06 QF vs. ARG (won) reached semis and lost


Yes, it's part of the game but it's a crap shoot in a lot of ways. Again, it's a tribute to Germany's consistency and diligence that they have never been denied by the PK lottery but it's a worthy tid bit to consider when looking at teams' performances.

[NickyViola]

Yes, it's part of the game but it's a crap shoot in a lot of ways. Again, it's a tribute to Germany's consistency and diligence that they have never been denied by the PK lottery but it's a worthy tid bit to consider when looking at teams' performances.

You're preaching to the choir. I don't think that the PK lottery SHOULD play a huge role in these things. We have to be realistic about it, though.

[ztnjv]

You're preaching to the choir. I don't think that the PK lottery SHOULD play a huge role in these things. We have to be realistic about it, though.

I know. We know all too well.:(

But you are not the only one reading this. Something for others to chew on in case it never crossed their mind.;)

[VCFan]

Nice way to rationalize the success of your team being equal to Germany. :rolleyes:

Yeah, because a European championship is generally considered to be as prestigious as a World Cup :rolleyes: Hence the weighting.

Would you rather that I weight a World Cup 2 points instead of 1.5 so that Italy would have more points than Germany instead of an equal number of points?

P.S. You should rename this poll: How many Italian fans are there on BigSoccer as opposed to German fans? :rolleyes: Do you guys really think you'll get objective opinions here?