Which is the more successful team: Italy or Germany?

[bRaTbaTzE]

Like the 1990 final? :D

LOL :D
That must be the biggest jokes of all time. Just recently I watched the full 1990 final again for getting into the righ mood for Euro2008. It was like 20:1 goal attempts in favour of Germany with something like 70 % possession.
While the penalty might not really have been one, just minutes before there was a foul against Augenthaler that should have been a penalty!

[Perú FC]

About World Cups, Germany have advantage in the general statistics in spite of Italy have one more trophy:

Germany

Germany 5-2 Belgium
Germany 2-1 Sweden
Germany 1-3 Czech Republic
Germany 3-2 Austria
Germany 1-1 Switzerland
Germany 2-4 Switzerland
Germany 4-1 Turkey
Germany 3-8 Hungary
Germany 7-2 Turkey
Germany 2-0 Yugoslavia
Germany 6-1 Austria
Germany 3-2 Hungary
Germany 3-1 Argentina
Germany 2-2 Czech Republic
Germany 2-2 Northern Ireland
Germany 1-0 Yugoslavia
Germany 1-3 Sweden
Germany 3-6 France
Germany 0-0 Italy
Germany 2-1 Switzerland
Germany 2-0 Chile
Germany 0-1 Yugoslavia
Germany 5-0 Switzerland
Germany 0-0 Argentina
Germany 2-1 Spain
Germany 4-0 Uruguay
Germany 2-1 Soviet Union
Germany 2-4 England
Germany 2-1 Morocco
Germany 5-2 Bulgaria
Germany 3-1 Peru
Germany 3-2 England
Germany 3-4 Italy
Germany 1-0 Uruguay
Germany 1-0 Chile
Germany 3-0 Austria
Germany 0-1 East Germany
Germany 2-0 Yugoslavia
Germany 4-2 Sweden
Germany 1-0 Poland
Germany 2-1 Holland
Germany 0-0 Poland
Germany 6-0 Mexico
Germany 0-0 Tunisia
Germany 0-0 Italy
Germany 2-2 Holland
Germany 3-2 Austria
Germany 1-2 Algeria
Germany 4-1 Chile
Germany 1-0 Austria
Germany 0-0 England
Germany 2-1 Spain
Germany 3-3 France
Germany 1-3 Italy
Germany 1-1 Uruguay
Germany 2-1 Scotland
Germany 0-2 Denmark
Germany 1-0 Morocco
Germany 0-0 Mexico
Germany 2-0 France
Germany 2-3 Argentina
Germany 4-1 Yugoslavia
Germany 5-1 United Arab Emirates
Germany 1-1 Colombia
Germany 2-1 Holland
Germany 1-0 Czech Republic
Germany 1-1 England
Germany 1-0 Argentina
Germany 1-0 Bolivia
Germany 1-1 Spain
Germany 3-2 South Korea
Germany 3-2 Belgium
Germany 1-2 Bulgaria
Germany 2-0 United States
Germany 2-2 Yugoslavia
Germany 2-0 Iran
Germany 2-1 Mexico
Germany 0-3 Croatia
Germany 8-0 Saudi Arabia
Germany 1-1 Ireland
Germany 2-0 Cameroon
Germany 1-0 Paraguay
Germany 1-0 United States
Germany 1-0 South Korea
Germany 0-2 Brazil
Germany 4-2 Costa Rica
Germany 1-0 Poland
Germany 3-0 Ecuador
Germany 2-0 Sweden
Germany 1-1 Argentina
Germany 0-2 Italy
Germany 3-1 Portugal

Italy

Italy 7-1 United States
Italy 1-1 Spain
Italy 1-0 Spain
Italy 1-0 Austria
Italy 2-1 Czech Republic
Italy 2-1 Norway
Italy 3-1 France
Italy 2-1 Brazil
Italy 4-2 Hungary
Italy 2-3 Sweden
Italy 2-0 Paraguay
Italy 1-2 Switzerland
Italy 4-1 Belgium
Italy 1-4 Switzerland
Italy 0-0 Germany
Italy 0-2 Chile
Italy 3-0 Switzerland
Italy 2-0 Chile
Italy 0-1 Soviet Union
Italy 0-1 North Korea
Italy 1-0 Sweden
Italy 0-0 Uruguay
Italy 0-0 Israel
Italy 4-1 Mexico
Italy 4-3 Germany
Italy 1-4 Brazil
Italy 3-1 Haiti
Italy 1-1 Argentina
Italy 1-2 Poland
Italy 2-1 France
Italy 3-1 Hungary
Italy 1-0 Argentina
Italy 0-0 Germany
Italy 1-0 Austria
Italy 1-2 Holland
Italy 1-2 Brazil
Italy 0-0 Poland
Italy 1-1 Peru
Italy 1-1 Cameroon
Italy 2-1 Argentina
Italy 3-2 Brazil
Italy 2-0 Poland
Italy 3-1 Germany
Italy 1-1 Bulgaria
Italy 1-1 Argentina
Italy 3-2 South Korea
Italy 0-2 France
Italy 1-0 Austria
Italy 1-0 United States
Italy 2-0 Czech Republic
Italy 2-0 Uruguay
Italy 1-1 Argentina
Italy 2-1 England
Italy 0-1 Ireland
Italy 1-0 Norway
Italy 1-1 Mexico
Italy 2-1 Nigeria
Italy 2-1 Spain
Italy 2-1 Bulgaria
Italy 0-0 Brazil
Italy 2-2 Chile
Italy 3-0 Cameroon
Italy 2-1 Austria
Italy 1-0 Norway
Italy 0-0 France
Italy 2-0 Ecuador
Italy 1-2 Croatia
Italy 1-1 Mexico
Italy 1-2 South Korea
Italy 2-0 Ghana
Italy 1-1 United States
Italy 2-0 Czech Republic
Italy 1-0 Australia
Italy 3-0 Ukraine
Italy 2-0 Germany
Italy 1-1 France


W D L G A Dif %
Germany 56 20 16 191 101 90 68.11
Italy 43 19 14 121 69 52 64.91

[Coompa71]

They both have excellent records, it's tough to say who is the most successful team between the two of them.
Although head to head we always seem to have Germany's number.

[eliostar1]

Why, because the Olympics with the National-Socialist party were so much more trustworthy?

I also assume you have mountains of evidence to support your nonsensical implications, right?

You missed the point, the pre war World cups weren't really "world cups"
They were more like South American or European championships depending were they were held.
Uruguay and Argentina have the same number of world cups , maybe we should compare those two.
If you want to be impressed by them that's fine , but to me Germany's 3 are more impressive than Italy's 4.

[Lusankya]

W D L G A Dif %
Germany 56 20 16 191 101 90 68.11
Italy 43 19 14 121 69 52 64.91

I found different numbers on wikipedia and in my World Cup Encyclopedia, so I think I have to research it myself. ;)

[Reazzurro90]

You missed the point, the pre war World cups weren't really "world cups"
They were more like South American or European championships depending were they were held.
Uruguay and Argentina have the same number of world cups , maybe we should compare those two.
If you want to be impressed by them that's fine , but to me Germany's 3 are more impressive than Italy's 4.

No, your point was to launch a swipe to Italy using the Fascist card, which was ridiculous.

On the previous World Cups, if you really want to compare, then the 1930 World Cup is apparently illegitimate by your standards (your really ridiculous standards).

In the 1934 World Cup, out of the 16 teams chosen, 4 of them were non-European teams (Brazil, USA, Egypt, Argentina).

Just what proportion of non-European teams does it really take to make a World Cup a legitimate World Cup? 50% 60% 90%?

The general reason in which you discount both World Cups is the following:

- Germany failed miserably in both.
Had Germany effectively made it to the final and defeated Italy both times, then you'd probably be clamoring on how both of those were 'real' World Cups.

But I wonder, were Germany's cups really "better" than Italy's two in pre-war?

Well, let's take a look at the 1954 FIFA World Cup. Germany faces the following:

Turkey, South Korea, Yugoslavia, Austria, and Hungary.

Well, the only good team here was the magical Maygars - Hungary.

So I definitely do not see Germany's 1954 triumph as any "better" than Italy's 1934-1938 victories. Nor is the 1974 victory any "better."

I am not diminishing the German triumphs, but it's ludicrous to say that the German triumphs are "more valid" or "better" than Italy's first two in pre-war. First of all they were not, and if one looks at the opponents both had two face in the respective years mentioned, it's clear. And secondly, had the Germans won the pre-war games, then there would be no discussion on this.

[tino11]

All I know is both teams look mediocre at this tournament whilst Spain and Holland look great,............ so fully expect Germany or Italy to be holding the trophy aloft the Sunday after next ;)

[eliostar1]

No, your point was to launch a swipe to Italy using the Fascist card, which was ridiculous.

On the previous World Cups, if you really want to compare, then the 1930 World Cup is apparently illegitimate by your standards (your really ridiculous standards).

In the 1934 World Cup, out of the 16 teams chosen, 4 of them were non-European teams (Brazil, USA, Egypt, Argentina).

Just what proportion of non-European teams does it really take to make a World Cup a legitimate World Cup? 50% 60% 90%?

The general reason in which you discount both World Cups is the following:

- Germany failed miserably in both.
Had Germany effectively made it to the final and defeated Italy both times, then you'd probably be clamoring on how both of those were 'real' World Cups.

But I wonder, were Germany's cups really "better" than Italy's two in pre-war?

Well, let's take a look at the 1954 FIFA World Cup. Germany faces the following:

Turkey, South Korea, Yugoslavia, Austria, and Hungary.

Well, the only good team here was the magical Maygars - Hungary.

So I definitely do not see Germany's 1954 triumph as any "better" than Italy's 1934-1938 victories. Nor is the 1974 victory any "better."

I am not diminishing the German triumphs, but it's ludicrous to say that the German triumphs are "more valid" or "better" than Italy's first two in pre-war. First of all they were not, and if one looks at the opponents both had two face in the respective years mentioned, it's clear. And secondly, had the Germans won the pre-war games, then there would be no discussion on this.

First off the Fascist comment was in jest, and I dismiss Uruguay's cups as well not just Italy. As far as weak opponents didn't Italy play Australia and Ukraine in the knock out stages two years ago, not exactly soccer powers, but you get who you get. The point is who shows up for the tournament not who you luck out with. It wasn't until 1950 that most of the World's best teams all participated, but as I said if it impresses you that's fine. Would Italy have still won it if The British teams and Uruguay showed up ? maybe , but the fact that the best teams (arguably ) didn't show up makes it less impressive to me. It's like those who are as impressed with a 1980 or 84 Olympic medal as those of any other year. To each their own.

[divinocodino1018]

This will probably add more fuel to the fire but I've heard that the 1954 World Cup Final was not exactly legitimate. Google it for yourselves.

[Rob_420]

Tough to say Germany has the overall better record and trophies 6-5. Italy have owned them head to head including a win vs arguably the best German side of all in 1970. Obviosly PKs will always factor in these tournaments but that is where Germany finds the edge.

The first two Italian WC wins were somewhat dodgy especially 1938, but the 1954 German win was dodgy as well with rough play and the metal studded cleats they used.

I'd say it's a draw due to Italy's superiority head to head. Italy would have probably beaten the Germans in 1990 final as well.

[Cris 09]

Nice way to rationalize the success of your team being equal to Germany. :rolleyes:

[FNU]

Superiority Complex Thread. :d

[Cris 09]

http://up.kupatrix.com/f/8/Motivational_Poster_Collection/Compensation-size.jpg

[sardus_pater]

euro cup = 1/2 world cup. being generous. it could more likely be 1/3.

There's a reason it doesn't exist a world cup won by the underdog like greece or denmark for the euros.

The euros are great but the world cup is an entirely different matter. ask the players.

I would give happily the next 3 eurocups to germany if that assured 1 more wc for italy in 2010 or 2014.

I understand many people posting here don't really know how it feels to win it. It's crazy. the best thing that can happen to a football fan.

the bottom line is i am quite happy with italy's record. the only other NT record I look at with envy is the brazilian one.

[Cris 09]

Unless you are Greece, the Euro Cup is much harder than World Cup from a competitive point...


sorry, try again!

[Lusankya]

Well, of course an Italian guy like you dont know how it feels to win the EURO. :D

Greece had to face, Portugal, Spain, France and Czech Rep (when they were still very good) and you call that easy?

[sardus_pater]

it's not like I am saying something weird when I state that a world cup is considerably >>>> than a continental cup.

I can accept you prefer winning eurocups because they are "harder", but it won't change my POV on the subject. give me wc 2010, I will happily give you ec 2008, 2012 and 2016... maybe even 2020. ;)

I do not mean to say that winning a EC is not good. it's great. still a wc is much more than that.

[Reazzurro90]

First off the Fascist comment was in jest, and I dismiss Uruguay's cups as well not just Italy. As far as weak opponents didn't Italy play Australia and Ukraine in the knock out stages two years ago, not exactly soccer powers, but you get who you get. The point is who shows up for the tournament not who you luck out with. It wasn't until 1950 that most of the World's best teams all participated, but as I said if it impresses you that's fine. Would Italy have still won it if The British teams and Uruguay showed up ? maybe , but the fact that the best teams (arguably ) didn't show up makes it less impressive to me. It's like those who are as impressed with a 1980 or 84 Olympic medal as those of any other year. To each their own.

What does it matter if "impressive" teams are there if you don't play them?

What I was stating is that Germany didn't face challenges any more difficult than Italy did in the pre-war cups. You're diminishing the "validity" of the first two cups Italy want purely because you consider there being "easier" opponents, and I showed that Germany didn't exactly have to face the biggest monsters in world soccer either.

If anything, the pre-war cups were MORE impressive in than the 1954 one, for example. Much more aggressive teams, and a lot more difficult, for that matter, despite Uruguay not being there (and it's not like England was of any important before or after 1966).

[FNU]

Unless you are Greece, the Euro Cup is much harder than World Cup from a competitive point...


sorry, try again!
How is it harder with fewer rounds to go through? Plus, you have teams getting 5 day breaks...?

[gold.field]

(and it's not like England was of any important before or after 1966).

congrats on disqualifying your entire post...

As for the original question, they are about even:

Brasil

Germany/Italy

Argentina

France/Netherlands

England/Uruguay