It's all George W. Bush's fault! **politics thread**

[tigerdave]

I refuse to watch candidates for the highest political office in the land debate in a church with a pastor overseeing the whole thing. I suppose I'm one of the few people left in this country that remembers that whole seperation of church and state thing. ;)

But I'll go out on a limb and say that McCain made the world seem like a straight forward battle between good and evil, as he always does, and Obama made the world seem like a muddled mess that is incomprehensible to anyone without a Harvard law degree, as he always does. Then, depending on how someone wants the world presented to them, they decided that candidate had the better night.

You apparently don't understand what the separation of church and state entails, and obviously have no idea what the Saddleback forum was all about. ;)

[Howard Zinn]

You apparently don't understand what the separation of church and state entails, and obviously have no idea what the Saddleback forum was all about. ;)


OK, I'm willing to be amused. Tell me all about this Saddleback forum and how it wasn't blatantly tossing aside one of the founding principles of our nation. :p

[tigerdave]

OK, I'm willing to be amused. Tell me all about this Saddleback forum and how it wasn't blatantly tossing aside one of the founding principles of our nation. :p

First of all, it had nothing to do with religion except for the setting it was in and Rick Warren asking each candidate what it meant to be a christian (and it wasn't state-sponsored in any way, which is what the separation is designed to deter). That aside, it was a 'get to know you' kind of thing with a few policy questions interspersed. You really got to understand how shallow Obama is in that the toughest decision of his life was to vote against the Iraq war, according to Obama, and his biggest moral failing was trying drugs because he had a difficult youth. That doesn't even go into his dancing around difficult questions like he always does (like his long-winded non-answer on his abortion stance where he talked for 2-3 minutes without saying anything at all and his deferring to someone or something 'above my pay grade' when asked about when or if an unborn child has civil rights). McCain was more direct, more genuine in the way he appeared, and he wiped the floor with Obama in an unscripted forum (where they couldn't even hear each other's answers because one was stuck in a "cone of silence" while the other was being interviewed).

[Crazy Man Michael]

OK, I'm willing to be amused. Tell me all about this Saddleback forum and how it wasn't blatantly tossing aside one of the founding principles of our nation. :p

I hope you are kidding about that, it is amazing to me the total misunderstanding in this county about separation of church and state. First of all, its not in the Constitution at all, it is only a popular consruct on the prohibition against establishing a state religion. Secondly, it is only concerned with the interference of organized religion into the function of government, or government into organized religion. Basically, the founders did not want a state religion as existed in other countries at the time the Constitution was drafted.

It is not a prohibiton against people of religion entering government, nor people acting in government in accordance with the tenants of their religion, nor politicians who want to be elected speaking to a forum of people who hold a particular religious belief. The Saddleback forum is no different than the candidates addressing the Rotary Club or the NAACP, it is a group of voters with a particular belief or viewpoint who want to see how the candidates match up with what they want in a leader.

[Howard Zinn]

First of all, it had nothing to do with religion except for the setting it was in and Rick Warren asking each candidate what it meant to be a christian (and it wasn't state-sponsored in any way, which is what the separation is designed to deter). That aside, it was a 'get to know you' kind of thing with a few policy questions interspersed. You really got to understand how shallow Obama is in that the toughest decision of his life was to vote against the Iraq war, according to Obama, and his biggest moral failing was trying drugs because he had a difficult youth. That doesn't even go into his dancing around difficult questions like he always does (like his long-winded non-answer on his abortion stance where he talked for 2-3 minutes without saying anything at all and his deferring to someone or something 'above my pay grade' when asked about when or if an unborn child has civil rights). McCain was more direct, more genuine in the way he appeared, and he wiped the floor with Obama in an unscripted forum (where they couldn't even hear each other's answers because one was stuck in a "cone of silence" while the other was being interviewed).

So, why didn't they just have it in the parking lot of a Wal-Mart then? :D

I'm just curious when they're going to even the playing field and have one of these things in a mosque. Afterall, Obama is a Muslim, isn't he? :D

Oh, and the way you just described what went down is the way I guessed it would, if you just read back. "McCain was more direct". It's like you copy and pasted my reply, or something. ;)

And what's wrong with saying that voting on whether to go to war or not was a tough decision for someone? I don't know what kind of life you're living, but I know if I were forced to make a decision like that tomorrow, it would go to the top of my tough decisions list. You're literally taking part in a decision that determines the lives of thousands of American soldiers/millions of Iraqis/economies all over the world/etc.

I hope you are kidding about that, it is amazing to me the total misunderstanding in this county about separation of church and state. First of all, its not in the Constitution at all, it is only a popular consruct on the prohibition against establishing a state religion. Secondly, it is only concerned with the interference of organized religion into the function of government, or government into organized religion. Basically, the founders did not want a state religion as existed in other countries at the time the Constitution was drafted.

It is not a prohibiton against people of religion entering government, nor people acting in government in accordance with the tenants of their religion, nor politicians who want to be elected speaking to a forum of people who hold a particular religious belief. The Saddleback forum is no different than the candidates addressing the Rotary Club or the NAACP, it is a group of voters with a particular belief or viewpoint who want to see how the candidates match up with what they want in a leader.

Dude, I was joking. I know all about seperation of church and state, for ******** sakes. Get a sense of humor.

But just because it's technically OK for them to do it doesn't mean that I want to see politicians literally preaching to the choir. I don't want to hear what it means for each of them to be a Christian. By my logic, what it means for them to be Christian will shine through in the policies they put forth. How much they plan on helping the poor. Their stance on the war. That's what matters to me, and I'll be able to make reasonable determinations concerning their religion based off their stances.

[Crazy Man Michael]

So, why didn't they just have it in the parking lot of a Wal-Mart then? :D

Dude, I was joking. I know all about seperation of church and state, for ******** sakes. Get a sense of humor.

But just because it's technically OK for them to do it doesn't mean that I want to see politicians literally preaching to the choir. I don't want to hear what it means for each of them to be a Christian. By my logic, what it means for them to be Christian will shine through in the policies they put forth. How much they plan on helping the poor. Their stance on the war. That's what matters to me, and I'll be able to make reasonable determinations concerning their religion based off their stances.

I have a great sense of humor, for instance I have the "Complete Works of Pauly Shore" DVD collection and my use of puns is legendary in some quarters. :D

Sorry for the rant, but it is a pet pieve of mine when people float that particular canard - for instance I remember people very seriously complaining that Pat Robertson running for President violated Church/State, which makes absolutely no sense whatsover, but there you go.

I agree that politicians on soap boxes can be a pain in the ass and, yes the proof is in the policy, but politicians regularly speak to special interest groups and I guess I take umbridge to complaints when they speak to the "Christian Right" when no one seems to complain about speeches to other groups, such as the aforementioned NAACP or the Sierra Club or the like. In each case the politician speaks to the issues the group cares about in order to get them on board, if possible, with their campaign. Its a necessary, if tedious, part of the process.

[tigerdave]

And what's wrong with saying that voting on whether to go to war or not was a tough decision for someone? I don't know what kind of life you're living, but I know if I were forced to make a decision like that tomorrow, it would go to the top of my tough decisions list. You're literally taking part in a decision that determines the lives of thousands of American soldiers/millions of Iraqis/economies all over the world/etc.

That's all well and good, if that's the reason it's such a tough decision for you. For Obama, though, he said it was the toughest decision of his life because it was an unpopular one at the time. (On an aside, let the record show that he wasn't even in the senate when we voted to go to war!) Not to mention that his answer was so blatantly politicking it wasn't even funny.

And Obama couldn't even answer questions about himself directly. It wasn't just policy viewpoint questions that he skirted. It's really like a line from his adopted campaign theme song: The more you see, the less you know.

[JaredSS07]

Nice to see the Dems roll out their best "Dubya" impersonator in Brian Schweitzer. Petro-dictators is my new favorite word.
I hope this convention puts any idea that Dems don't attack and play negative to rest.

EDIT: Bill Clinton is still amazing in front of a camera. He was mouthing "I love you... forever and ever." It's like he was told when the camera would be on him. Michelle Obama on the other hand, was shooting lasers at Hillary like she caught her in bed with Obama.

[Howard Zinn]

I would bother replying to the above posts, but...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/26/AR2008082603130.html

we're boned regardless of who pick. I think I'll try to write in Colbert, just for the hell of it.

[JaredSS07]

I would bother replying to the above posts, but...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/26/AR2008082603130.html

we're boned regardless of who pick. I think I'll try to write in Colbert, just for the hell of it.

What a great way to save our nation from the doom you are predicting. You must've been the kid that always took the ball and went home. Maybe if more people follow your great example, our country can just give it all up and dissolve.
But, why should you waste your time on politics and government when you could be sitting on your ass watching Comedy Central? Oh wait, because other people are doing the work for you and allowing you to be a lazy douchebag.

[tigerdave]

What a great way to save our nation from the doom you are predicting. You must've been the kid that always took the ball and went home. Maybe if more people follow your great example, our country can just give it all up and dissolve.
But, why should you waste your time on politics and government when you could be sitting on your ass watching Comedy Central? Oh wait, because other people are doing the work for you and allowing you to be a lazy douchebag.

Repped.

[Russell1892]

I have to say as an outsider - your party conferences (well thats what they're called over here) leave me bemused. I feel like an alien, completely bewildered by your strange customs. Are the people in that hall all completely smacked off their tits on something? Someone says something tired and bland and everyone "woos" and shakes bizarre sticks (with a word emblazoned on it) at them. Nobody really says anything... its moronic politics. They finish talking... their family appears from nowhere and they stand grinning and waving like trained chimps.

Why does Obama show up on the big screen to talk to his kids? I found that pretty cringe-worthy. Why is he on the big screen in the first place?? Does someone there have a restraining order against him?

I'm beginning to see where all that money you need to run for president goes though.

[tigerdave]

Why does Obama show up on the big screen to talk to his kids? I found that pretty cringe-worthy. Why is he on the big screen in the first place?? Does someone there have a restraining order against him?

The Messiah is still campaigning in other places while his apostles are worshipping him in Denver, in eager anticipation of his glorious appearing tomorrow night at his temple set in Invesco Field to accept the the offering of Democratic Party nominee for God--er, president.

[City Dave]

I would bother replying to the above posts, but...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/26/AR2008082603130.html

we're boned regardless of who pick. I think I'll try to write in Colbert, just for the hell of it.

Based on that one article you're saying that we're boned? For one thing, that's nothing new, and you should have already known it. Have you even read any Howard Zinn?

Why does Obama show up on the big screen to talk to his kids? I found that pretty cringe-worthy. Why is he on the big screen in the first place?? Does someone there have a restraining order against him?

I'm beginning to see where all that money you need to run for president goes though.

Well, I'm not going to vote for him but I'll back him up here anyway. You know how big and spread out our country is, right? Plus, we have over four times the people as you guys. Not to mention that the current party conventions are ridiculously long. He'll be there eventually, he's just busy traveling and campaigning at the moment.

There's one change that I've long wanted in our political system and I think it would help out a great deal. I wish we had run-off elections. You know, no one wins until someone gets a majority vote. It would make third-party candidates much more viable and give people more of a choice. Unfortunately, I fear that our populous would have trouble understanding the concept.

[JaredSS07]

There's one change that I've long wanted in our political system and I think it would help out a great deal. I wish we had run-off elections. You know, no one wins until someone gets a majority vote. It would make third-party candidates much more viable and give people more of a choice. Unfortunately, I fear that our populous would have trouble understanding the concept.

Except it doesn't work that way. Louisiana has had run offs forever and they were always dominated by party. It was only this year that they closed the first round of run offs to party members.

Besides, it isn't the way we vote that limits third-party candidates, it is the amazing job of branding and messaging that keeps everyone in the fold of two parties. I liken it to Pepsi vs Coke vs everyone else (i.e. RC Cola). How many diehard RC people do you know?

[JaredSS07]

I have to say as an outsider - your party conferences (well thats what they're called over here) leave me bemused. I feel like an alien, completely bewildered by your strange customs. Are the people in that hall all completely smacked off their tits on something? Someone says something tired and bland and everyone "woos" and shakes bizarre sticks (with a word emblazoned on it) at them. Nobody really says anything... its moronic politics. They finish talking... their family appears from nowhere and they stand grinning and waving like trained chimps.

Why does Obama show up on the big screen to talk to his kids? I found that pretty cringe-worthy. Why is he on the big screen in the first place?? Does someone there have a restraining order against him?

I'm beginning to see where all that money you need to run for president goes though.

Conventions are a relic of the past that have become big pep rallies. Once the parties started using primaries to select their candidates, the whole purpose of the convention died. Now the whole point is to generate excitement, rally the troops, and act like your candidate has an amazing amount of supporters.

What you see on TV is a poor representation of what actually happens. All the real important parts are done behind the scenes, in secret meetings, or at the back of the floor. The crazy wackos (the completely smacked off their tits crowd) are put in the front and they don't leave. The party staff, big donors, campaign managers, and consultants are always standing in the back, ignoring the speeches, plotting, and making deals.

[Howard Zinn]

What a great way to save our nation from the doom you are predicting. You must've been the kid that always took the ball and went home. Maybe if more people follow your great example, our country can just give it all up and dissolve.
But, why should you waste your time on politics and government when you could be sitting on your ass watching Comedy Central? Oh wait, because other people are doing the work for you and allowing you to be a lazy douchebag.

:rolleyes:

A guy posting on an internet message board calling me a lazy douchebag. I guess you're out fixing all the world's problems and just happen to always find time to post on BigSoccer.

And just incase you weren't paying attention, sunshine, it was humor. Of course I'm not writing in Colbert on a ballot, and if I actually didn't think things could be fixed, I wouldn't actually be paying attention to any of this, now would I?

No, no, no, none of that could be it. I've clearly given up hope for life based on that one article. I'm going to go off myself now because there's nothing left to live for.

I now see why certain posters that used to populate this board have went away.

Repped.

Based on that one article you're saying that we're boned? For one thing, that's nothing new, and you should have already known it. Have you even read any Howard Zinn?

No, I've never read Howard Zinn. I just use his name for no particular reason. Because that makes alot of sense. :rolleyes:

That article points out exactly why I voted Nader in '04 and why I'll probably do it again. God forbid someone should actually post an interesting article from a reputable news source though. Maybe I should go find a blog about how Michelle Obama is a stereotypical angry black woman. Would that suit your interests more?

[Russell1892]

Well, I'm not going to vote for him but I'll back him up here anyway. You know how big and spread out our country is, right? Plus, we have over four times the people as you guys. Not to mention that the current party conventions are ridiculously long. He'll be there eventually, he's just busy traveling and campaigning at the moment.


Actually if I was American I probably would vote for Obama... but I'm not so its a pointless exercise. I think his steering clear of the convention probably had more to do with avoiding an awkward scene with the Clintons. At least until they'd given Hillary her moment in the sun to endorse Obama (like she has an option). I just thought his big screen appearance to talk to his kids was a little off by my own tastes. We just have a more cynical view of using your kids in political campaigning over here I suppose.

Conventions are a relic of the past that have become big pep rallies. Once the parties started using primaries to select their candidates, the whole purpose of the convention died. Now the whole point is to generate excitement, rally the troops, and act like your candidate has an amazing amount of supporters.

What you see on TV is a poor representation of what actually happens. All the real important parts are done behind the scenes, in secret meetings, or at the back of the floor. The crazy wackos (the completely smacked off their tits crowd) are put in the front and they don't leave. The party staff, big donors, campaign managers, and consultants are always standing in the back, ignoring the speeches, plotting, and making deals.

Yeah seems like a lot of hoo-ha over a foregone conclusion, I just think its funny when Bill Clinton comes out and endorses Obama then there is analysis as if its surprising. He's not going to come out and endorse McCain is he? Although when he said "The Republicans said I was too young to be commander in chief, now they're saying it about Obama." Actually Bill you said that a few months ago....

Televise the backstage stuff I say. :D I'm also confused why Michelle Obama is so prominent in all of this. Her cheeks must be aching from grinning for the last week.

[tigerdave]

She's important because those evil right-wing smear machines have been saying she doesn't love America, so she needed to prove them wrong with a home-run presence at the convention which she did by a country mile.

Nevermind that she said that she was proud of her country for the first time in her adult life when her husband was winning the primary, or that she wrote in a 2008 paper that America is a downright mean country (despite being the most generous country on the planet, to the tune of $306 billion given to charity by individuals). It's just typical right-wing smear tactics, as always. She said she loves America, that's good enough for me!

</Keith Olbermann>

[tigerdave]

So...Sarah Palin. Thoughts?

I, for one, love the choice. She's a woman, which will play to some, not all, Hillary voters but should play to enough to cause a little bit of worry in the Obama camp. Second, she's young, which balances the fact that McCain is roughly 386 years old, give or take a decade. Three, she's staunchly conservative, which shores up McCain's base. Fourth, she's not afraid to tackle corruption or challenge anyone or anything she doesn't believe is good for her constituents (even those mean oil companies that she's NOT in the pocket of even though the libs will say she is), which should appeal to more moderate voters. Five, it means the GOP No. 2 has more relevant experience for the presidency than the Dem No. 1. :D Six, she hails from a state that is vital to the economy. Seven, she's from Idaho and a former sports reporter. :D Eight, it brought out an absolutely stupid snipe from the Obama camp before she'd even made her speech, a sign that the Messiah maybe actually realizes for once that he could lose.

Did I mention she's hot? Hell, they've already got www.VPILF.com (http://www.VPILF.com) up. :D