It's all George W. Bush's fault! **politics thread**

[colinh9]

And since we were so willing to point out Obama's gaffes, here are a list of McCain's.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16270.html#more-16270

[Russell1892]

Does anyone on here watch Fox News (and take it seriously)? Its so dumb its almost entertaining. I watched that O'Reilly bloke once, Christ he's an offensively-smelling vagina.

[tigerdave]

I listen to what they have to say but I draw my own conclusions.

And now for quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever read (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4392846.ece). It's a shame that it took a British columnist to actually point this out and have people actually take notice.

[tigerdave]

And since we were so willing to point out Obama's gaffes, here are a list of McCain's.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16270.html#more-16270

I wonder how many times McCain's gaffes are mentioned negatively in the media compared to Obama's.

[ToonUSA]

Does anyone on here watch Fox News (and take it seriously)? Its so dumb its almost entertaining. I watched that O'Reilly bloke once, Christ he's an offensively-smelling vagina.

I like Special Report with Brit Hume. Good rundown of the day's news and decent panel discussion towards the end. Pretty impartial. (or at least less so than the blatantly partisan MSNBC)

O'Reilly always has some interesting topics although he's a bit too Conservative for being an "independent" in my eyes. Hannity's good but Colmes ruins it and they don't do enough political discussion, they kind of dabble in everything.

[tigerdave]

Here's an example (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/A+GIFT+OF+TREATMENT.-a0180532002) of what that excellent idea known as government-run healthcare will deliver.

Last month, she found out that her lung cancer, which had been in remission for about two years, had come back. After her oncologist prescribed a cancer drug that could slow the cancer growth and extend her life, Wagner was notified that the Oregon Health Plan wouldn't cover the treatment, but that it would cover palliative, or comfort, care, including, if she chose, doctor-assisted suicide.

Then, on Monday morning, a representative of the pharmaceutical company called Wagner and told her it would provide the medicine for free. Wagner said she didn't know whether to laugh or cry, so she did both.

"I am just so thrilled," she said. "I am so relieved and so happy."

Wagner had to rely on the charity of a drug company because the Oregon Health Plan wouldn't cover her treatment.

"Treatment of advanced cancer that is meant to prolong life, or change the course of this disease, is not a covered benefit of the Oregon Health Plan," said the unsigned letter Wagner received from LIPA, the Eugene company that administers the Oregon Health Plan in Lane County.


When the Oregon Health Plan was established in 1994, it was expressly intended to ration health care. A prioritization list was drawn up, with diagnoses and ailments deemed most important - pregnancy, childbirth, preventive care for children - placed at the top of the list. At the bottom are procedures such as cosmetic surgery, which would not be covered.

"We can't cover everything for everyone," said Dr. Walter Shaffer, medical director of the state Division of Medical Assistance Programs, which administers the Oregon Health Plan.

"Taxpayer dollars are limited for publicly funded programs. We try to come up with polices that provide the most good for the most people."

[Toon³]

Here's an example (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/A+GIFT+OF+TREATMENT.-a0180532002) of what that excellent idea known as government-run healthcare will deliver.

Nope, thats an example of what a poorly run and badly funded public healthcare system will deliver.

[tigerdave]

Nope, thats an example of what a poorly run and badly funded public healthcare system will deliver.

Indeed. In order to avoid the scenario detailed above, you'd have to have a virtually unlimited supply of funds in order to cover for each and every possible contingency. Otherwise someone is denied necessary treatment because the cost outweighs the "reward" as it were. There is no political machine that can compensate for that kind of nest egg without taxing at an obscene clip, which would destroy all kinds of other things (the economy/private sector/etc) that affect everyone.

Unless the government's plan is to subsidize everything pertinent to everyday life one sector at a time, in which case we're still screwed because there still won't be enough money to pay the bills.

How're those Labour party machinations (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4322722.ece) going over in Britain right now, anyway? :D

[mplsTOON]

I threw this in here from the "Sack Joey Barton" thread because its point I wanted to make without hijacking that thread. read on:

Oh, yes, Nike's just the buyer. How silly of me. Just because they use well-run sweatshops (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_38/b3900011_mz001.htm) doesn't mean they aren't using sweatshops (http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/nike/faq.html).

That Biz week article generated a lot of press ...back in 2004 when it was published.

Global Exchange Article FAQs cited are dated 1996-1999,...ten years ago.

I do social accountability, product testing and production auditing in Asia for a living. I'm professionally sceptical about any claims made regarding social accountability myself. Very skeptical. But after walking thru some places that are little more than dirt floored garages packed with people and machinery, in the middle of a residential slum, the "Sweatshop" is more a rule rather then an exception. And you will not find branded sportswear made in these places. They are making the low quality high volume inexpensive doohickeys that end up being sold on the shelves of Target and Wal-Mart and eventually in your house.

Joking or not, please do some due diligence and actually go out and find the most up to date info before you rely on outdated facts. You should do it as a consumer and especially if you have kids. You will be surprised and disappointed to learn that with teh weakening of the US dollar, sweatshops with underpaid workers working in unsafe conditions using toxic materials are more likely to exist in the United States and Mexico than in Veitnam, China and Indonesia.

The misconceptions actually make my job of convincing a company that it is in their best interests, and future bottom line, to invest in improving their workers environment. When the no one believes that the only successful corporate social accountably protocols that I can point to are called dishonest, I have very little chance of actually improving something...

shorter me: point being changes have been made and although far from Utopian socially and economically much better

[tigerdave]

I threw this in here from the "Sack Joey Barton" thread because its point I wanted to make without hijacking that thread. read on:



That Biz week article generated a lot of press ...back in 2004 when it was published.

Global Exchange Article FAQs cited are dated 1996-1999,...ten years ago.

I do social accountability, product testing and production auditing in Asia for a living. I'm professionally sceptical about any claims made regarding social accountability myself. Very skeptical. But after walking thru some places that are little more than dirt floored garages packed with people and machinery, in the middle of a residential slum, the "Sweatshop" is more a rule rather then an exception. And you will not find branded sportswear made in these places. They are making the low quality high volume inexpensive doohickeys that end up being sold on the shelves of Target and Wal-Mart and eventually in your house.

Joking or not, please do some due diligence and actually go out and find the most up to date info before you rely on outdated facts. You should do it as a consumer and especially if you have kids. You will be surprised and disappointed to learn that with teh weakening of the US dollar, sweatshops with underpaid workers working in unsafe conditions using toxic materials are more likely to exist in the United States and Mexico than in Veitnam, China and Indonesia.

The misconceptions actually make my job of convincing a company that it is in their best interests, and future bottom line, to invest in improving their workers environment. When the no one believes that the only successful corporate social accountably protocols that I can point to are called dishonest, I have very little chance of actually improving something...

shorter me: point being changes have been made and although far from Utopian socially and economically much better

I stand corrected, I guess. I still doubt that there are NONE out there, but there's nothing to suggest that as far as I can find. Though I find it tough to believe that they totally cleaned up all their sweatshops in just three years. But if they have, fair play to them.

[mplsTOON]

I stand corrected, I guess. I still doubt that there are NONE out there, but there's nothing to suggest that as far as I can find. Though I find it tough to believe that they totally cleaned up all their sweatshops in just three years. But if they have, fair play to them.

oh yes there are a lot of them out there, a majority are, but higher profile brands like Nike tend to avoid them like the plague. Bad press you see. Can't have a sneaky reporter going in and checking on them.

Nike even goes so far as to not allow the socially compliant factory to even speak to anyone else or use any of their lines on any competitor to ensure that they do not have to go out and train another factory about social compliance.

but if you really wish to split hairs "sweatshop" is a histrionic canard. By that I mean even the BEST factory is a sweatshop as Factory work is dismal, repetitive, boring and often done in a hot, unfriendly environment by poorly educated and unskilled labor and absolutely sucks to work in no matter how socially compliant it is, or in what country it is or how much they pay. Always has been always will be. My grandparents did it in Steel and Garment factories for 40 years...so my parents didn't have to. And those factories were worse than all of Nike's worst.

the Insane part is that there are who some people are desperate enough, poor enough and literally dumb enough, to go do it and keep doing it, in quantities that perpetuate industrial revolutions worldwide.

as long as there is demand for the latest fob at $.99 there will be someone desperate to work in shit conditions to make it...

[JaredSS07]

Somewhat along this discussion...

Many years ago in my Intro to Philosophy class, I was the only person to advocate child labor. Pretty much set the bar for my reputation around campus, but by the end of the discussion, even my prof agreed with me.

Basically my point was: If the kids don't have opportunities for schooling and a better life and the only way their family can survive is for the kid to work, why should we sit over in America and deny his family the basics of life? I don’t think we should abuse the kids or give them a substandard workplace but if it comes down to survive and work or live on the street and starve… we should give them jobs.

[colinh9]

as long as there is demand for the latest fob at $.99 there will be someone desperate to work in shit conditions to make it...

Right on to your entire post, and I must say that conditions in many meat factories still in America are absolutely horrendous. Factory jobs are always going to be an awful way to make ends meet, no matter what product you are making. Unfortunately, as you pointed out well, it will not end anytime soon.

[City Dave]

Right on to your entire post, and I must say that conditions in many meat factories still in America are absolutely horrendous. Factory jobs are always going to be an awful way to make ends meet, no matter what product you are making. Unfortunately, as you pointed out well, it will not end anytime soon.

Not all factory jobs are terrible. Using such a broad generalization is incorrect. I've worked in factories before in the US and the experiences weren't awful in the least. And when I say I've worked there I mean I started at the bottom, I didn't have some cushy office job or the like. The quality of life depends upon what's being made and the nature of the job, plus I was paid decently. That's not to say that I was wealthy, but I mean quite a bit above minimum wage. And that was as a young man with very little experience in anything and only a high school education. Anyway, my point is that not all factory work is "an awful way to make ends meet", that sounds a bit elitist to me.

[JaredSS07]

Not all factory jobs are terrible. Using such a broad generalization is incorrect. I've worked in factories before in the US and the experiences weren't awful in the least. And when I say I've worked there I mean I started at the bottom, I didn't have some cushy office job or the like. The quality of life depends upon what's being made and the nature of the job, plus I was paid decently. That's not to say that I was wealthy, but I mean quite a bit above minimum wage. And that was as a young man with very little experience in anything and only a high school education. Anyway, my point is that not all factory work is "an awful way to make ends meet", that sounds a bit elitist to me.

Ya, I agree it depends on what is being made and to some degree on where you live. My cousin worked for Ford in Chicago and hated his job on the line and the conditions were not good. One of my friends works on the line for AM General right now, has a great enviroment and wouldn't quit for anything.

[colinh9]

Correct. As to the rest, Faye and Beye are injured, Zog and Butt were simply left out for whatever reason, Shola was injured as was Oba, and Given didn't even come on the trip.

Dear god, please change your sig. Are you seriously implying that the democrats are the ones to blame for gas prices?

Move it to the politics discussion, I know.

[City Dave]

Dear god, please change your sig. Are you seriously implying that the democrats are the ones to blame for gas prices?

Move it to the politics discussion, I know.

Well, they certainly can't be blamed for fixing the problem, can they?

[tigerdave]

Dear god, please change your sig. Are you seriously implying that the democrats are the ones to blame for gas prices?

Move it to the politics discussion, I know.

Makes just as much (if not more) sense than blaming Bush and Big Oil. :)

Oh, excuse me, I have to go check my tire pressure. The Messiah said so.

[JaredSS07]

mopkn0lPzM8

Funniest campaign ad yet by a candidate. Paris Hilton's ad is best of the year though.

[JaredSS07]

ztO8wZz029Y

This is awful. Gotta be the dumbest thing I have ever seen.