It's all George W. Bush's fault! **politics thread**

[City Dave]

Still stalking me Bolo?

Your logical argument falls apart with the "Racism could be" line. There are dozens of things that could be something. Wilson could be insane. He could have been on drugs, etc. I'm not surprised that you "believe" that logical argument because you seem to find racism everywhere.

There have been freakin' physical confrontations in the halls of our congress. People have been challenged to duels. Yes, this specific thing has never happened before, but that doesn't mean that it's racially motivated.

Oh, and well, it could just be that Wilson, in fact, thought that the President was lying. Gee, wouldn't that make him really want to shout that out? I mean, if the President got up there and was telling a bold face lie to the country? That kind of violates decorum as well, doesn't it? Btw, I'm not saying that the Pres was lying, just that Wilson believed he was.

[Bolo]

Your logical argument falls apart with the "Racism could be" line.....

Oh, and well, it could just be that Wilson, in fact, thought that the President was lying. Gee, wouldn't that make him really want to shout that out? I mean, if the President got up there and was telling a bold face lie to the country? That kind of violates decorum as well, doesn't it? Btw, I'm not saying that the Pres was lying, just that Wilson believed he was.


You are right that it falls apart there because I was trying to avoid calling him a racist while explaining the possible logic of those who do. I thought that by explaining their logic without calling him a racist, it might prompt some to see things from a different perspective, (not you, I've given up there) your issues are cast in stone.

Certanially if you beleive that disagreeing with the President of The United States on a factual point which the President was actually correct according to FactCheck (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/obamas-health-care-speech/) means it wasn't racist, that's up to you.

The House bill contains a section (Sec. 246) titled "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS," which states: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."


No one else has ever said the President was telling a lie and interrupted him with that charge, ever, while he was speaking to a joint session of Congress.

Then again we've never had a Black President being attacked by a member of the "Sons of the Confederate Veterans (http://www.scv.org/index.php)" before, a group that is fighting to keep the principals of the south alive, has defended the practice of slavery and supported succession in the past so forgive me, this is all new ground.

Where Wilson actually had a legitimate concern was regarding the lack of specific enforcement language, a larger issue and not limited to this bill, but the legislation in question created no "new" rights for illegal immigrants, instead it expressly forbid them.

That factual issue aside,

If you choose to defend Wilson or his motivations that's fine, best of luck to you.

I'm not surprised you would choose to defend Wilson. As a matter of fact I give you special credit for your consistency.

Next up, City Dave explains how the back of the bus is really the safest place to ride, stay tuned.

Have a Great Day!

[JaredSS07]

Looks like our civil, thought provoking political discussion has been hijacked by a few people who mistook this for the Politics and Current Events forum.

A warning to all, this thread will be tightly moderated and my tolerance for jackasses is extremely low. Disagree with each other, and me, all you like but keep it civil and keep it a discussion, not just screaming your favorite talking points.

[JaredSS07]

I agree with you though that the majority of these protests have nothing to do with racism. Yet there are outliers that do and although Jimmy Carter was a bit over the top with the issue, he has a point that there are still people who cannot handle a black person as our President. Again though, the overwhelming majority are protesting against policy.

You are correct about gerrymandering and I would still put money on Joe Wilson to win the race. There are a few polls that showed Miller gained and you are correct it did fire up the liberal base. However, my point is that there may be a Republican challenger who shows the base that Wilson isn't fit to lead the district forward. Time will tell, I agree that it is likely it will be swept under the rug, but I don't believe it was an intelligent thing for Wilson to do, and I don't think it will help him gain any votes.

Definitely not an intelligent thing and since writing my first comment he hasn't done anything to become the leader of the tinfoil hat brigade. Did you see the SNL skit about Wilson and the GOP leadership? It was classic.

So what's your take on Citizens United vs. FEC?

[tigerdave]

I happen to believe Obama plans to legalize the illegals at some point before ObamaCare comes into effect. So he wasn't lying (technically).

Now excuse me while I retreat into my free-from-political-BS bunker. :D

[Bolo]

I happen to believe Obama plans to legalize the illegals at some point before ObamaCare comes into effect. So he wasn't lying (technically).

Now excuse me while I retreat into my free-from-political-BS bunker. :D

Timing will be everything, since that's on the "Year 2" agenda. :)

[City Dave]

Out of curiosity... isn't this forum for NUFC supporters? I mean, there is an entire Politics forum for others, as was mentioned earlier. I'm pretty sure the only reason this Bolo guy showed up here was because he doesn't like me and occasionally searches for my posts. I mean, as you can see, that's what he responded to here. Not to mention that I've never seen him on the Newcastle boards before.

That's the reason that I responded to him in the way I did. And Jared, I don't see what was so bad about my response. He's convinced I'm a racist. Hell, he probably thinks I'm in the KKK and SCV, who he smears. Except for my "stalking" comment and the stating that he sees racism everywhere I don't see anything in my response to him that wasn't civil. Now his responses to me on the other hand....

[Bolo]

I did respond to your "joke" about Mexican's not playing Starcraft post in the other thread because even as a play on words racial generalizations seem out of place in a sport community message board. That said, I do not think you are a racist and after reading your PM and looking again at your comment about Mexicans and Starcraft, I see what you were trying to do and even if racially insensitive, don't think it was intended to present a racist perspective.

My comments in this tread were simply an attempt to explain why some may have seen Wilson's actions the way they did (responding to your clearly stated goal to "fan the fires"), perspective often changes perception. As noted in my post, I make a point not to call Wilson a racist, just explained why some might have seen his outburst that way.

I'm very comfortable with both the tone and content of both of my post in this thread, other than the back of the bus comment, that would have been better left out of my post and I apologize for including that small portion.

Have a great day!

Edit: BTW Smear, is usually reserved for untruths about another to damage reputation.

You can read and decide if my comments about SCV is a smear, and if so take it up with the Southern Poverty Law Center (http://www.splcenter.org/index.jsp)

Articles on the topic
The War Within (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=153)
SCV Leadership (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=241)
Uncivil War (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=921)

Weaver, recently reappointed as "chaplain-in-chief," caused a stir several years ago with his defense of slavery. Many Africans, he wrote, "blessed the Lord for allowing them to be enslaved and sent to America."

Now this isn't to say that all members of SCV feel this way, quite the contrary, there is a continuing fight between the more moderate folks and the less. That said, the organizations history is littered with some, lets say "questionable" decisions.

None of the SCV stuff matters much in this conversation other than it provides some additional perspective that might help understand why people questioned Wilson's motivations.

[tigerdave]

Timing will be everything, since that's on the "Year 2" agenda. :)

Considering that ObamaCare won't take effect for three/four years after it's passed (by the President's own words in the joint session speech), that's plenty of time.

[Bolo]

Considering that ObamaCare won't take effect for three/four years after it's passed (by the President's own words in the joint session speech), that's plenty of time.


Only if we can get McCain to co-sponsor the legislation so we can get 61 :)

Otherwise the timeline might be tight for liberal world domination!

[tigerdave]

Only if we can get McCain to co-sponsor the legislation so we can get 61 :)

Otherwise the timeline might be tight for liberal world domination!

I suppose. Gotta have help from the wascally wepublicans. I guess that means they'd be WINOs? :D

I don't think either healthcare or amnesty are going to pass, for the record. But then again I think more along the lines of the Sons of Liberty, sans the alleged xenophobic tendencies.

And then there's my whole 'deport all the illegals' idea, which seems to have no place here. :)

[BayernWake]

Out of curiosity... isn't this forum for NUFC supporters?

I thought it was open to everyone. Remember Howard Zinn (the BigSoccer one)?

[tigerdave]

I thought it was open to everyone. Remember Howard Zinn (the BigSoccer one)?

Guests are welcome as long as they're not morons.

[City Dave]

Open to everyone not just looking to cause trouble. ;) I guarantee you the only reason that guy showed up was because he searched for my posts. He never even denied it.

And as I mentioned before, there's a general politics forum for everyone else. I mean, this is a thread in Newcastle forum. Others are welcome, but for the most part it's only us that follow the team that ever come here. That's how I see it, anyway.

You won't get any more fighting from me, /ignore is very useful.

[Bolo]

Open to everyone not just looking to cause trouble. ;) I guarantee you the only reason that guy showed up was because he searched for my posts. He never even denied it.

Dave, Dave, Dave....

Not that I should have to justify my reading or posting habits but I will anyway.

Didn't you send me a message asking me to read your post to see if you had a habit of posting "jokes" like the "Mexican" one? Didn't I refer to that message in explaining that I now understood the joke you were trying to make?

You see, I took you up on that request and came across the "fan the flames" post here which I actually thought was an interesting point to discuss. I didn't think it was an interesting topic because of you, I just thought the topic itself was interesting. I then simply tried to explain why some might have a different perspective. You then accused me of all kinds of nasty things to which I responded, without calling you names, including relevant FACTS about the topic in question. You then accused me of smearing a group to which I again responded to with facts and links that I felt supported my original comments but letting people draw their own conclusions.

In the end, I went on to clearly state that I did't think you were a racist, that I understood the joke you were tying to make in your "Mexican's" not playing starcraft post and even went so far to apologize for the back of the bus comment, saying I should not have posted that part.

It would seem only one of us here is intent on a fight, name calling and limiting discussion and I don't think it's me.

I realize you feel like you're on "home turf" here but my post and responses on this topic, in this thread are clear. Now, I may have been mistaken by the title of this particular thread and if so I apologize to the regular posters here but it seemed like an appropriate place to discuss the topic I responded to. It's not like I came in and treadjacked a game day thread, it's titled what it's titled.

I guess if you define "causing trouble" as disagreeing with you on a particular topic or post, guilty as charged. If causing trouble is defined by some other, less "Dave" centered standard then I might have a fighting chance to defend myself :)

Seriously, have a good day.

[tigerdave]

For the record, we do have a pissing contest thread if you're just getting after each other. You might want to keep it going over there rather than here. :)

[Bolo]

For the record, we do have a pissing contest thread if you're just getting after each other. You might want to keep it going over there rather than here. :)

Ok back to immigration....

I'm not pro illegal immigration just pragmatic enough to believe that no matter how much lip service the topic gets, the majority of the people in question will never be deported.

Why?

Because sadly too many industries count on cheap illegal labor without benefits or other protections -follow the money.
Because there are millions of children, US citizins who would be forced to either leave the country or live here without their parents, ain't gonna happen.

The likely outcome will be path to citizenship, civil penalty (fine), perhaps a touch back but nothing like wide scale deportations. Everything else is just reflects the reality of campaign rhetoric for house members who have to be re-elected every 2 years.

[tigerdave]

Ok back to immigration....

I'm not pro illegal immigration just pragmatic enough to believe that no matter how much lip service the topic gets, the majority of the people in question will never be deported.

Why?

Because sadly too many industries count on cheap illegal labor without benefits or other protections -follow the money.
Because there are millions of children, US citizins who would be forced to either leave the country or live here without their parents, ain't gonna happen.


The likely outcome will be path to citizenship, civil penalty (fine), perhaps a touch back but nothing like wide scale deportations. Everything else is just reflects the reality of campaign rhetoric for house members who have to be re-elected every 2 years.

I agree with you on the inevitable outcome, and the reason it gets so much play. Everyone pretty much knows nothing substantive is going to change.

As far as my personal thoughts on the matter go, I'd really like to see the government actually pursue the deportation of illegals on a wide scale for a number of reasons. I believe illegal immigration not only to be a potential national security issue, but the vast number of undocumented or illegal immigrants in our country is also putting an undue strain on our prison system, our healthcare system (not to say deportation is the fix in and of itself) and our labor system.

I have no problem with employing people who are here legally or want to come here legally. But the fact that illegals can be paid under the table and on the cheap, while a staple of true free-market capitalism, is something that I think needs to be addressed.

[tigerdave]

Rowdy Gaines hinted that the IOC might have denied Chicago because of "the last eight years." WTF really?!

[City Dave]

Who TF is Rowdy Gaines? Yes, I know I could Google him. But based on that comment why should I bother?