It's all George W. Bush's fault! **politics thread**

[Toon³]

Congratulations, you found a propaganda piece. You must be so proud of yourself.



Obama: "UPS and FedEx are doing fine, it's the Postal Service that's always having problems."

That's about the best argument I've seen for HR3200 to disappear without a trace. Way to argue against your own plan, Mr. President.

A propaganda piece...you seem to be mistaken as to what propaganda means. A piece that shows the US right attacking the NHS with lies and half truths that have been proved to be just that is hardly propaganda.

[tigerdave]

A propaganda piece...you seem to be mistaken as to what propaganda means. A piece that shows the US right attacking the NHS with lies and half truths that have been proved to be just that is hardly propaganda.

Funny, I didn't see any numbers. Just the "that's not true!" rhetoric that the left is spewing in this country when they haven't even read the bill they're trumpeting.

Not saying there aren't some measure of facts behind it somewhere but that piece is particularly devoid of them.

[Toon³]

Funny, I didn't see any numbers. Just the "that's not true!" rhetoric that the left is spewing in this country when they haven't even read the bill they're trumpeting.

Not saying there aren't some measure of facts behind it somewhere but that piece is particularly devoid of them.

Who mentioned anything about numbers? It's a piece about the lies that the conservative right have been spreading via commentators and bloggers about the NHS. It seems as if you haven't even read the piece at all.

Oh and since you like numbers, here you go. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/aug/12/nhs-us-healthcare-obama)

[JaredSS07]

When you shouting doesn't work, there is always lies and half-truths (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/11/nhs-united-states-republican-health?commentpage=2)

Personally I hate it when people make claims about a system they don't know, no matter what side. It reminds me of your claim that my insurance isn't good anywhere I choose to go. I won't tell you what NHS is like (or support the people that do), so don't tell me how my insurance works. The only system I have personal experience in, other than the US, is Canada. I don't like how it works in Canada and prefer my care in the US.

I realize that my insurance is not the same as everyone else's, but have yet to hear a compelling argument for giving up what I have, so that I can have the same lower level of care as everyone else. I have never heard a compelling argument for health care being a "right" or why it is the government's obligation to provide it.

[tigerdave]

Personally I hate it when people make claims about a system they don't know, no matter what side. It reminds me of your claim that my insurance isn't good anywhere I choose to go. I won't tell you what NHS is like (or support the people that do), so don't tell me how my insurance works. The only system I have personal experience in, other than the US, is Canada. I don't like how it works in Canada and prefer my care in the US.

I realize that my insurance is not the same as everyone else's, but have yet to hear a compelling argument for giving up what I have, so that I can have the same lower level of care as everyone else. I have never heard a compelling argument for health care being a "right" or why it is the government's obligation to provide it.

Must spread rep, etc.

[colinh9]

Let's get the ball rolling again.

What do we all think about Citizens United vs. FEC?

For those unfamiliar: http://www.slate.com/id/2227235/

SCOTUSblog also has a wiki entry that is superb on it if you want a little more nuanced reading.

[City Dave]

Here's one to fan the fire.

I'm still trying to figure out how "You lie!" is racist. :confused:

[tigerdave]

Here's one to fan the fire.

I'm still trying to figure out how "You lie!" is racist. :confused:

Jimmy Carter is a world class moron, that's how.

[BayernWake]

Here's one to fan the fire.

I'm still trying to figure out how "You lie!" is racist. :confused:

I don't necessarily agree that it's racist, BUT, it was an unprecedented event that happened to occur when the first black president was in office. So people draw their own conclusions from that, illogical as they may be.

I'm not saying that all criticisms of Obama have something to do with the fact that he's black. Far from it.

However, let's not delude ourselves into thinking that that racism does not still exist, or that all of Obama's critics/detractors are 100% non-racist. We can't pretend that racism only exists outside politics.

[JaredSS07]

I don't necessarily agree that it's racist, BUT, it was an unprecedented event that happened to occur when the first black president was in office. So people draw their own conclusions from that, illogical as they may be.

Unprecedented that someone shouted you lie or that someone was disrespectful and interrupted a speech in Congress? There have been many joint session speeches or State of the Union speeches that had disruptions. I remember some from just a few years ago...

[BayernWake]

Unprecedented that someone shouted you lie or that someone was disrespectful and interrupted a speech in Congress? There have been many joint session speeches or State of the Union speeches that had disruptions. I remember some from just a few years ago...

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was of the impression (from some news source, I forget which) that that was the first time an outburst of that nature was made by someone in Congress toward the President while he was giving a speech.

[colinh9]

George Bush did indeed get booed during a SoTU when he called for an extension on the Patriot Act.

To be fair to Jimmy Carter I don't believe he was specifically referring to Wilson's outburst anyway. People during these teabagging parties have compared Obama to Hitler, have called him a fascist, have deliberately tried to derail the health care agenda and other issues Obama has put at the forefront. Those to me are the main concerns. Wilson's outburst will hurt him more than help any movement, so I couldn't care less he made himself look like a fool on the national stage.

Obama has come out against Carter's statement anyway.

[JaredSS07]

Let's get the ball rolling again.

What do we all think about Citizens United vs. FEC?

For those unfamiliar: http://www.slate.com/id/2227235/

SCOTUSblog also has a wiki entry that is superb on it if you want a little more nuanced reading.

I hate McCain-Feingold. It doesn't level the playing field or stop the flow of money into politics, it just makes the money flow differently. Unlimited, undisclosed money just flows through 501(c)4s as "education" and you just change a few words at the end of the ad or mailer. IEs are growing larger every year and candidates are more dependent on them than they are on their own donors. We actually encourage people to stop creating PACs and create a 501(c)4 to get around the legal issues.
Self-funders are so important now that it is almost the first question we ask when talking to candidates about their race. Many consultants talk about how it actually helps incumbents, but other than better access to lobbyists, PACs, and 501(c)4s, I'm not sure how. Also, public funding is absolute bullshit.
It is impossible to separate money from politics and no amount of legislation will stop attorneys from exploiting the loopholes. Instead of just focusing my time on messaging and winning votes, I have to make sure I am laundering the money properly.

[JaredSS07]

To be fair to Jimmy Carter I don't believe he was specifically referring to Wilson's outburst anyway. People during these teabagging parties have compared Obama to Hitler, have called him a fascist, have deliberately tried to derail the health care agenda and other issues Obama has put at the forefront. Those to me are the main concerns. Wilson's outburst will hurt him more than help any movement, so I couldn't care less he made himself look like a fool on the national stage.

Obama has come out against Carter's statement anyway.

As a preface, I am a very moderate Republican who: can't stand the tea parties (or their populist, founding fathers crap); thinks Joe Wilson acted like a jackass; sees Obama as more than fair towards his critics. I think Obama realizes there are some people who are against him based on race, but it is a small minority. It's not like people were in favor of everything he stands for when proposed by white people (see Clinton health care).

So, are you saying Joe Wilson is not a racist but everyone that goes to a tea party, calls Obama names, doesn't like his agenda, or works to stop is a racist? Were people racist when they did that stuff to Clinton and Bush? Especially since the level of animosity towards Obama cannot even come close towards the hatred GWB faced. Right-wingers could save time, save money, and help the environment by recycling all the anti-Bush signs and just changing the name to Obama. The message is the same...

How can you say Wilson's outburst will hurt him more than it helps? He is in a safe seat, raised plenty of money, and jumped to the forefront of the right-wing fringe who are looking for a leader right now. If anything, this is an issue he can base his future career on.

[JaredSS07]

Anyone else want to read a biased, interesting, and ultimately damning article?

Meet the man who changed Glenn Beck's life (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/09/16/beck_skousen/index.html)
Cleon Skousen was a right-wing crank whom even conservatives despised. Then Beck discovered him

[colinh9]

As a preface, I am a very moderate Republican who: can't stand the tea parties (or their populist, founding fathers crap); thinks Joe Wilson acted like a jackass; sees Obama as more than fair towards his critics. I think Obama realizes there are some people who are against him based on race, but it is a small minority. It's not like people were in favor of everything he stands for when proposed by white people (see Clinton health care).

So, are you saying Joe Wilson is not a racist but everyone that goes to a tea party, calls Obama names, doesn't like his agenda, or works to stop is a racist? Were people racist when they did that stuff to Clinton and Bush? Especially since the level of animosity towards Obama cannot even come close towards the hatred GWB faced. Right-wingers could save time, save money, and help the environment by recycling all the anti-Bush signs and just changing the name to Obama. The message is the same...

How can you say Wilson's outburst will hurt him more than it helps? He is in a safe seat, raised plenty of money, and jumped to the forefront of the right-wing fringe who are looking for a leader right now. If anything, this is an issue he can base his future career on.

First off, I agree with your first paragraph. The amount of people who are against Obama on the preface of racism is a small minority. Racism still exists today, but these people aren't necessarily involved in the political process. Some of them are, which brings me to the second paragraph. I don't think Wilson's outburst had anything to do with racism. I find the whole debacle disgusting, considering the animosity we have towards illegal immigrants who fuel this economy. The fact that this creates such partisan bullshit is in itself a form of racism, but we don't need to get into that. God forbid we help out our fellow humans regardless of race or citizenship. Yet, directly to Obama, this had nothing to do with racism in my opinion.

In no way are all of the people at tea parties racist. In fact, 99% of them likely are not. It's the outliers that make the whole thing look nuts, but that is the same for anti-war movements on the left. People spew all sorts of bullshit but that's just because the majority of Americans aren't all that intelligent politically (sorry if that offends anyone). Anyway, some of these people are racist, yes, but they'd be against the policy even if they weren't. The point is the way they go about expressing their opinion is disgusting and seems quite racist to me.

Wilson has embarrassed his constituents on national TV. Articulate leaders who stand up to the bill on the R side may gain from this, but shouting "You lie," appeals to very few people. He doesn't gain any votes by doing that, he just keeps the people who already would have supported him. You don't win over people by being a jackass.

I point you to polling immediately after the event, not to mention his approval ratings dropped by something like 18%.
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_SC_9111023.pdf

[JaredSS07]

First off, I agree with your first paragraph. The amount of people who are against Obama on the preface of racism is a small minority. Racism still exists today, but these people aren't necessarily involved in the political process. Some of them are, which brings me to the second paragraph. I don't think Wilson's outburst had anything to do with racism. I find the whole debacle disgusting, considering the animosity we have towards illegal immigrants who fuel this economy. The fact that this creates such partisan bullshit is in itself a form of racism, but we don't need to get into that. God forbid we help out our fellow humans regardless of race or citizenship. Yet, directly to Obama, this had nothing to do with racism in my opinion.

In no way are all of the people at tea parties racist. In fact, 99% of them likely are not. It's the outliers that make the whole thing look nuts, but that is the same for anti-war movements on the left. People spew all sorts of bullshit but that's just because the majority of Americans aren't all that intelligent politically (sorry if that offends anyone). Anyway, some of these people are racist, yes, but they'd be against the policy even if they weren't. The point is the way they go about expressing their opinion is disgusting and seems quite racist to me.

Wilson has embarrassed his constituents on national TV. Articulate leaders who stand up to the bill on the R side may gain from this, but shouting "You lie," appeals to very few people. He doesn't gain any votes by doing that, he just keeps the people who already would have supported him. You don't win over people by being a jackass.

I point you to polling immediately after the event, not to mention his approval ratings dropped by something like 18%.
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_SC_9111023.pdf

I totally think the illegal immigrant argument is based in latent racism and class warfare. Stupid US immigration policy caused the problem in the first place. I have found that if you push Republicans on the issue they will usually come around. I don't think the way that people protest against Obama and his policies is based in latent racism. Calling him Hitler, a fascist, a socialist, or anything else is based in their view of his policies and what they think his "master plan" is. It is no different than what the left did to Bush.

Interesting poll, but I would still put money on Joe Wilson in this race. From my understanding the gerrymandering of this district outweighs everything else and I would guess the poll oversampled the moderates and liberals. The crosstabs looks like the speech fired up the liberals, while the moderates and conservatives stayed close the same. Wilson has plenty of time to bury this or spin it so that by the time the election happens, it won't be a big issue. Plus this is from a Democrat pollster so its probably set up to help Miller.

[Adiaga Two]

Especially since the level of animosity towards Obama cannot even come close towards the hatred GWB faced. Right-wingers could save time, save money, and help the environment by recycling all the anti-Bush signs and just changing the name to Obama. The message is the same...



This is the sort of false equivalency that the right has been using to deflect and change the subject with great success in the 30-second attention span media.

Yes, there was a large segment of the population who were vocal in their opposition to George W. Bush.

Difference is....Bush actually was an incompetent president who was caught lying and engaging in nefarious behavior often. Bush ran a partisan, political administration that actively fought in cultural pissing matches and antagonized and ignored opposition despite being having been elected narrowly under controversial circumstances. The well-behaved majority of anti-Bush protesters were angry about trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives being spent on an optional military excursion and gross mismanagement of the economy that eventually resulted in the 2008 crash. I certainly don't recall liberals parading on Capitol Hill with Bush as Hitler signs, harrassing Republican congressmen in August 2001.

Obama is cleaning up the mess the GOP made as non-offensively as he possibly can and has made few significant changes to national policy. Yet we see Republican elected officials calling for secession and floating conspiracies of death panels and concentration camps?

[colinh9]

I totally think the illegal immigrant argument is based in latent racism and class warfare. Stupid US immigration policy caused the problem in the first place. I have found that if you push Republicans on the issue they will usually come around. I don't think the way that people protest against Obama and his policies is based in latent racism. Calling him Hitler, a fascist, a socialist, or anything else is based in their view of his policies and what they think his "master plan" is. It is no different than what the left did to Bush.

Interesting poll, but I would still put money on Joe Wilson in this race. From my understanding the gerrymandering of this district outweighs everything else and I would guess the poll oversampled the moderates and liberals. The crosstabs looks like the speech fired up the liberals, while the moderates and conservatives stayed close the same. Wilson has plenty of time to bury this or spin it so that by the time the election happens, it won't be a big issue. Plus this is from a Democrat pollster so its probably set up to help Miller.

I agree with you though that the majority of these protests have nothing to do with racism. Yet there are outliers that do and although Jimmy Carter was a bit over the top with the issue, he has a point that there are still people who cannot handle a black person as our President. Again though, the overwhelming majority are protesting against policy.

You are correct about gerrymandering and I would still put money on Joe Wilson to win the race. There are a few polls that showed Miller gained and you are correct it did fire up the liberal base. However, my point is that there may be a Republican challenger who shows the base that Wilson isn't fit to lead the district forward. Time will tell, I agree that it is likely it will be swept under the rug, but I don't believe it was an intelligent thing for Wilson to do, and I don't think it will help him gain any votes.

[Bolo]

Here's one to fan the fire.

I'm still trying to figure out how "You lie!" is racist. :confused:

Go figure,

I think the logic is this.

The president is not only the person but the office.
By congressional rule, the office merits respect and decorum in chambers even if you disagree.
For a member to demonstrate such an inappropriate and unprecedented response (Calling The President Of The United States Liar) on the floor during joint session would require something beyond political disagreement.
That some thing must be so deep and lacking respect that is moved the person to ignore the respect the office is granted by congressional rules.
Racism could be something that would allow a member of congress to ignore all established rules of respect for the President Of The United States
If it were just policy, this would happen all the time.


Then again, There are none so blind as those who will not see

It's called willful ignorance.