It's all George W. Bush's fault! **politics thread**

[JaredSS07]

...
On the other hand, I also have a friend who is a stay at home dad because if he and his wife both worked they wouldn't be able to qualify for the government healthcare programs they need for their son's condition. You have to admit that it's a messed up system that promotes people not working because if they actually did work they would have less money. He'd be worse off if he had a job and they were making more money. These are the kinds of things that can happen with socialized medicine if it's done incorrectly.
...
Also, I don't want the government dictating to me what treatments I can and can't have or do or don't need.

Or most importantly, when you can have those treatments.

I have known a few people with similar stories. Some love their socialized medicine because of the out of the ordinary terrible illnesses/diseases they have. Others, like two of the owners of my company, are in a situation like your friend. Their youngest has some terrible medical problems, the cost is enormous but they are still against socialized medicine. Their solution right now is searching for grants or private institutions that help finance or treat his condition.

[BayernWake]

Also no matter what countries you look at, it is much easier to run an efficient national healthcare system in smaller countries.

This is probably one of the most important points.

[tigerdave]

I'm guessing that your wife and child are healthy at the moment. It's easy to find quality healthcare if all you need
are the occasional check-up and inoculations. Trust me, I've had a child with an illness, and if I wasn't lucky enough to work for one of the best hospital systems in the world at the time I'd probably be tens of thousands of dollars in debt right now.

While you're mostly right, my wife is pregnant at present. And babies aren't cheap. ;)

[JaredSS07]

Roundtable (http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6984145) from this week.

Everyone makes outstanding points and the only person I don't disagree with at some point is George F. Will.

[BayernWake]

While you're mostly right, my wife is pregnant at present. And babies aren't cheap. ;)

Whoa, congrats. How far along is she?

[tigerdave]

Whoa, congrats. How far along is she?

12-13 weeks...ish. Due September 8 or so.

[City Dave]

12-13 weeks...ish. Due September 8 or so.

Congrats!

May I suggest Barack for a boy and Sarah for a girl.

[tigerdave]

Congrats!

May I suggest Barack for a boy and Sarah for a girl.

Hahahahahha...no. :D

[tigerdave]

Bump.

I'm 90% of the way paid through a pregnancy, completely out of pocket. What's so wrong with our healthcare system again? :cool:

[Toon³]

Bump.

I'm 90% of the way paid through a pregnancy, completely out of pocket. What's so wrong with our healthcare system again? :cool:

It's controlled by health insurance and drug companies.

[tigerdave]

It's controlled by health insurance and drug companies.

But my wife doesn't have health insurance, yet we can afford the cost on my pittance of a salary. Drug companies, that I'll give you. To a degree.

I'd say it's got more to do with the 10 million-plus people who are here illegally and show up at the emergency room because they know they legally can't be denied care even though they have no way to pay than it does either of the aforementioned. Probably the same thing the NHS experiences in the UK, come to think of it...

[Toon³]

But my wife doesn't have health insurance, yet we can afford the cost on my pittance of a salary. Drug companies, that I'll give you. To a degree.

I'd say it's got more to do with the 10 million-plus people who are here illegally and show up at the emergency room because they know they legally can't be denied care even though they have no way to pay than it does either of the aforementioned. Probably the same thing the NHS experiences in the UK, come to think of it...

Well if you allowed them to become legal citizens then they could pay tax off their earnings and contribute to a healthcare system.

The UK spent £30 million on treating non UK or EU patients in 2007.

You choose the healthcare system that you feel is best, if you like paying large corporations for the right to medical treatment then go ahead. I for one don't mind giving a portion of my pay to help pay for the NHS as I'm safe in the knowledge that where ever I am, be it bollock naked in the centre of Aberdeen, that I'll be given the best possible treatment.

I do laugh when I hear people like your pal Glenn Beck speak of socialism as if it's the second coming of Lenin.

[tigerdave]

Well if you allowed them to become legal citizens then they could pay tax off their earnings and contribute to a healthcare system.

The UK spent £30 million on treating non UK or EU patients in 2007.

You choose the healthcare system that you feel is best, if you like paying large corporations for the right to medical treatment then go ahead. I for one don't mind giving a portion of my pay to help pay for the NHS as I'm safe in the knowledge that where ever I am, be it bollock naked in the centre of Aberdeen, that I'll be given the best possible treatment.

I do laugh when I hear people like your pal Glenn Beck speak of socialism as if it's the second coming of Lenin.

They have a means of becoming legal citizens but they choose to forego it and become an invisible stress on the system. It's not only healthcare, it's also evident in the prison system, among others, and it's money that could be better spent elsewhere, upon actual citizens of the United States.

I like paying for things as I need them, not having other people pay that for me, and not me paying for someone else without my consent. What's so wrong about that? I have yet to suffer in the healthcare department under the current system. It's like a tree with a few dead branches that needs to be trimmed, whereas The One and Co. want to take a chainsaw to it.

Socialism as a form of governance is evil. No one will convince me otherwise. At best it tries to legislate morality, caring for one's neighbor, feeding the hungry and clothing the needy and all that. At worst it's an authority grab by the powers that be, trying to regulate what you do in as many aspects of your life over which they can seize power to dictate.

As far as your stance on paying a little extra goes, if you don't mind it, you can always contribute to a nonprofit organization that specializes in the things dear to your heart. But compulsory charity is bullshit.

[HoosierToon]

Question

Where do the next great discoveries in Health Care come from if you punish those who invest in making said great discoveries?

Should we just stall all progress and focus on treating poor people with herpes and consider it a day?

[JaredSS07]

It's controlled by health insurance and drug companies.

Even Obama is cutting deals with the drug companies now.

Well if you allowed them to become legal citizens then they could pay tax off their earnings and contribute to a healthcare system.

Agreed we should make them citizens. The US created a ridiculous immigration policy in hope of protecting union laborers.


You choose the healthcare system that you feel is best, if you like paying large corporations for the right to medical treatment then go ahead. I for one don't mind giving a portion of my pay to help pay for the NHS as I'm safe in the knowledge that where ever I am, be it bollock naked in the centre of Aberdeen, that I'll be given the best possible treatment.
Ummm... I could be bollock naked in the centre of Utah and still be given the best possible treatment. How is that different than you being in Aberdeen?

What makes health care a right?

[tigerdave]

Also, for the record, the law in the U.S. is that patients must be seen irrespective of their ability to pay. So the "denied treatment" claim is bullshit.

[Toon³]

Question

Where do the next great discoveries in Health Care come from if you punish those who invest in making said great discoveries?

Should we just stall all progress and focus on treating poor people with herpes and consider it a day?

When was the last time an HMO did anything close to research?

The vast majority of medical advances are made by academics in universities or hosptials.

[Toon³]

Even Obama is cutting deals with the drug companies now.

Because he has no other choise


Ummm... I could be bollock naked in the centre of Utah and still be given the best possible treatment. How is that different than you being in Aberdeen?

What makes health care a right?

Because if you don't have the correct insurance you'll be stuck with a nice bill and I'll walk out paying nothing.

[Toon³]

When you shouting doesn't work, there is always lies and half-truths (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/11/nhs-united-states-republican-health?commentpage=2)

The National Health Service has become the butt of increasingly outlandish political attacks in the US as Republicans and conservative campaigners rail against Britain's "socialist" system as part of a tussle to defeat Barack Obama's proposals for broader government involvement in healthcare.

As myths and half-truths circulate, British diplomats in the US are treading a delicate line in correcting falsehoods while trying to stay out of a vicious domestic dogfight over the future of American health policy.

[tigerdave]

When you shouting doesn't work, there is always lies and half-truths (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/11/nhs-united-states-republican-health?commentpage=2)

Congratulations, you found a propaganda piece. You must be so proud of yourself.



Obama: "UPS and FedEx are doing fine, it's the Postal Service that's always having problems."

That's about the best argument I've seen for HR3200 to disappear without a trace. Way to argue against your own plan, Mr. President.