Germany has the worst luck with injuries

[JeffS]

One of the biggest reasons for Germany's fall in world prominence is the fact that it has not been able to field a full strength team in quite some time, due to unbelievable luck with injuries. Germany has recently lost to England, Brazil, Argentina, Italy, France, Spain, and The Netherlands. But in none of these matches have they even come close to fielding a full strength squad. Injuries are a part of the game and all teams go through it, but Germany has suffered far more than anyone else. Just look at this list of high caliber players who have missed substantial time:

Sebastian Deisler
Mehmet Scholl
Jens Nowotny
Christoph Metzelder
Joerge Boehme
Dietmar Hamann
Christian Woerns
Michael Ballack
Paul Freier
Torsten Frings
Christian Ziege
Marko Rehmer
Alexander Zickler
And others with shorter time absenses

Right now, we can speculate that with Rudi Voeller's preference for a 3-5-2 system the probable starting line up for Germany, assuming everyone is healthy, would be something like this:

G - Oliver Kahn
D - Nowotny, Metzelder, then either Rehmer, Woerns, or Friedrich
M - Schneider, Hamann, Deisler, Ballack, Ziege
F - Klose, Nueville

Now, this line up is pure speculation, but if they are all healthy and based on past performances and international stature, these would be the likely guys. And it is a pretty formidable lineup, and a line up that would have probably gotten better results against the likes of Brazil, Argentina, Spain, England, France and The Netherlands. This is particularily true if this group could have played together for a number of games.

But alas, injuries have prevented such a line up to even come close to being assembled. And the injuries have not only depleated the talent level, but also the continuity and team chemistry. Every game for Germany seems to be a substantially different line up.

And when they've faced the aforemention countries, those teams were at or close to full strength. In fact, no other country has had to face losing such a large contingent of their best players for such long periods of time. Just imagine how brazil might have done if Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Lucio were injured. Just imagine how France would be without Vierra, Zidane and Henry for a long period of time.

So, Germany's inconsistent, mediocre performances in the last 2-3 years (other than their over-acheiving WC, when they weren't at full strength either) have not been due to a lack of talent or bad coaching, but completely ridiculous luck with injuries. Poor Rudi Voeller has had to constantly juggle the line up, putting in young, inexperienced players, and players that have not been used to playing with each other.

In conclusion, Germany is really better, in terms of talent, coaching and overall ability, than their record over the last 2-3 years has indicated.

Any thoughts, German fans or non German fans?

[Frankfurt Blue]

Are you sure you have your facts right? Germany have had a lot of luck over the years. They are still strong, as unlike the English Premiership, many sides still field mainly German players. They have never had flair players, but a good solid workman like team. At the moment, their strikers cannot score - Klose useless since his return from the Far East.
However, I would like to add that Völler seems to overlook Kevin Kuranyi ant VfB Stuttgart, who is young and a proven goalscorer. Völler bemoans the injuries and the lack of goals, but appears reluctant to select Kuranyi. Their overreliance on Ballack may be hindering the team, just like England with Beckham.

[JeffS]

Originally posted by Frankfurt Blue
Are you sure you have your facts right? Germany have had a lot of luck over the years. They are still strong, as unlike the English Premiership, many sides still field mainly German players. They have never had flair players, but a good solid workman like team. At the moment, their strikers cannot score - Klose useless since his return from the Far East.
However, I would like to add that Völler seems to overlook Kevin Kuranyi ant VfB Stuttgart, who is young and a proven goalscorer. Völler bemoans the injuries and the lack of goals, but appears reluctant to select Kuranyi. Their overreliance on Ballack may be hindering the team, just like England with Beckham.

I am absolutely positive about my facts. Deisler has been missing the last two years, as has Nowotny. These two are among the worlds best at their respective positions. Prior to that, Mehmet Scholl (before retiring from Germany) missed tons of time with Germany due to injury. Right now, Ziege (one of Germany's best left sided players) is not available, same with Deitmar Hamann (IMHO, one of the best defensive mids in the world). Boehme, Frings and Metzelder are all currently unavailable, and just yesterday Paul Freier broke his foot, just as he was starting to make an impression on the German nats. Add to that the fact that Woerns, Rehmer and Ballack have all missed time.

As for Kuranyi, I totally agree. He and Benjamin Lauth are Germany's future at the striker position. Both had awesome campaigns last season. But these guys are still young and relatively unproven at the international level. Plus, neither one has managed to score four games into the new Bundesliga season. These guys are the future, but not quite the present. They still need time, and some more proven results at club level. Thus, Germany have to currently settle for the likes of Klose, Nueville and Bobic, due to greater proven experience at the international level, even though they are all rather mediocre.

[Frankfurt Blue]

Germany never has players to set the world alight. They just tend to be good at what they do. Germany seems to be struggling at the moment for players. But don't use the injury excuse, as all sides go through that. Look at England, players dropping like flies. Just have to get on with it, and maybe unearth a few new gems.

You will find many agree that Germany has had a great deal of luck over the years. 2nd place last year was more than flattering - what a lucky draw?!!!

[olafgb]

Both of you got a point there. It's surely true that many important players were injured and it's definitely not the case that the clubs are playing with lots of Germans (about 40% of the used players are Germans). OTOH I don't like it a lot to complain about those, who aren't available. All what counts is to form a team with the guys, who are ready to play. 'What happened if...' doesn't help and as Frankfurt Blue said, some of the bad injury luck surely was compensated by the tremendous luck at the WC

[kingwho]

sure germany has bad luck with injuries
every team does
and the ones that over come that bad luck are the big winners
i think germany needs a new attitude and a run of good luck

[Frankfurt Blue]

Don't wish Germany good luck. They have had more than their fair share in the past!

[JeffS]

Originally posted by kingwho
sure germany has bad luck with injuries
every team does
and the ones that over come that bad luck are the big winners
i think germany needs a new attitude and a run of good luck

All teams have to experience injuries, this is true. My point is that Germany has experienced far more than most. Germany have dropped in prominence recently (well, gradually over the last 10 years), but IMHO they are better than many people think. Whenever they have played the other soccer powers (like I mentioned in my first post), they have been far from full strength while their opponents have been at or near full strenth. The recent game against Italy is a prime example. Italy had Del Piero, Vieri, and Toti playing, as well as most of the rest of their best players. If memory serves me correctly, only Nesta was missing. Contrast that with the fact Germany were missing Ballack, Deisler, Nowotny, Metzelder, Ziege and Hamann. That's pretty significant.

None of this is to make excuses and/or whine or be obsesed with "what would happen if" questions, all on Germany's behalf. I've just noticed that many German fans and non German fans have discounted Germany as a country that produces top talent and competes well. Lets just reserve judgement for when (and if) Germany has most of it's best players available.

[Germanshepherd]

Originally posted by Frankfurt Blue
Germany never has players to set the world alight.

Was ein Schwachsinn!

Originally posted by Frankfurt Blue
You will find many agree that Germany has had a great deal of luck over the years. 2nd place last year was more than flattering - what a lucky draw?!!!

Yeah, a lucky draw, but not our fault that Italy and Spain were not able to beat South-Korea. We were!
And do you remember the final? It was bad luck not to beat Brazil!

[miko]

Agreed.

[Frankfurt Blue]

I love the obvious bias. Germany had the luckiest draw by far. Refereeing helped steer South Korea through - the referee is now BANNED from the game. You didn't deserve your place in the Final.

Völler - why can't he pick Kuranyi?

[Frankfurt Blue]

Originally posted by Germanshepherd
Was ein Schwachsinn!



Yeah, a lucky draw, but not our fault that Italy and Spain were not able to beat South-Korea. We were!
And do you remember the final? It was bad luck not to beat Brazil!

It's true though! Name a great German individual player. Beckenbauer? Nope - great team player, yes. You just have players who do the right job, which is certainly no bad thing, I have to admit.

[Germanshepherd]

Originally posted by Frankfurt Blue
It's true though! Name a great German individual player. Beckenbauer? Nope - great team player, yes. You just have players who do the right job, which is certainly no bad thing, I have to admit.

Pah! Talk about something different. You know little about Fussball.

Of course our players are all great team-players, thats a good thing. But there were a lot of great individual players!

Beckenbauer, Müller, Matthäus, Sammer, Netzer, Schuster, Ballack, Kahn, Völler, Rummenigge!

I could name a lot more, but I assume you don`t know them anyway.

[Germanshepherd]

I don`t want to be rude. :)

[JeffS]

Originally posted by Frankfurt Blue
It's true though! Name a great German individual player. Beckenbauer? Nope - great team player, yes. You just have players who do the right job, which is certainly no bad thing, I have to admit.

Beckenbauer
Muller
Maier
Brietner
Rummenigge
Schuster
Kaltz
Schumacher
Voeller
Matthaus
Brehme
Kohler
Klinsmann
Effenberg
Moeller
Sammer
Scholl
Ballack
Deisler
Kahn

All great individual players that would stand up with many of the world's all time greats. They are all good team players as well, and players that play with great directness and drive. This is why I've been such a fan of German soccer over the years. They produce players of very high caliber, but players that fit in well with the team concept, along with great tactics, fighting spirit, and hard work.

But in recent years we have not been blessed with a full strength German squad, so we haven't been able to observe those qualities very often.

[Frankfurt Blue]

This is how I see it my friend. It is all opinion, and what I said was mine. You are entitled to yours. Most of those would never make it onto an all time great list of 20.
However, having said that, that is not what the German team is all about. Never has been. MY OPINION. But let me say this too, what they do and are asked to do, they do well. In fact more than well, hence the 3 World Cups. They also, until recently, seem to click together like clock-work, showing great team spirit and team play. Not the greatest as individuals, but combined = World Champions x 3.

[Germanshepherd]

Take your stereotypes and leave.

Whats the logic in your statements? You win 3 World Cups without World Class players?

Whats next, will you tell Beckham is World Class?

[JeffS]

Originally posted by Frankfurt Blue
This is how I see it my friend. It is all opinion, and what I said was mine. You are entitled to yours. Most of those would never make it onto an all time great list of 20.
However, having said that, that is not what the German team is all about. Never has been. MY OPINION. But let me say this too, what they do and are asked to do, they do well. In fact more than well, hence the 3 World Cups. They also, until recently, seem to click together like clock-work, showing great team spirit and team play. Not the greatest as individuals, but combined = World Champions x 3.

I actually mostly agree with you. What you said in your second paragraph pretty much sums up why I'm such a fan of the Bundesliga and the German national team (after the USA, of course :) ).

I do beg to difer, however, on the top 20. Surely, Gerd Muller is one of the greatest strikers of all time - his goal scoring record speaks for itself. Plus, Beckenbauer revolutionized the "sweeper" or "libero" position. He not only was a fantastic defender, but also a great playmaker. And Rummenigge was simply awesome. He was a goal scoring machine, an amazing althlete with speed and power, and had amazing skill. During his era, he won two Euro player of the year honors. Then there is Matthaus and Klinsmann. These two were the driving force behind the 90 championship. Matthaus was a terrific defender and playmaker, while Klinsmann scored goals of the spectacular, acrobatic variety. And now there is Ballack and Kahn. Kahn is regarded by many as the world best 'keeper, while Ballack has emerged as one of the best playermakers around.

Whether these guys are top 20 all time is debateable, but certainly at least a few of them could make it. Your opinion, my opinion, it's all subjective.

[Frankfurt Blue]

Originally posted by Germanshepherd
Take your stereotypes and leave.

Whats the logic in your statements? You win 3 World Cups without World Class players?

Whats next, will you tell Beckham is World Class?

Don't want to fall out with you, honestly. It's only opinions and no need to get so upset. Just like I draw my opinion from yesterday's game.

I will more than concede on the Beckham front, which will more than please you. I have annoyed quite a few England fans when I have said that he is an overpaid pretty boy. Sure, he has the talent, but he seems preoccupied with his global image (something I think his wife has more than a hand in) than his actual football. I also think his inclusion in the England set up may hinder England, as the other players focus too much on him being the match winner, than playing their own game. He is also dreadfully slow. I think he (his wife) made a big mistake leaving England.

Don't worry about yesterday's game. 2 home games, must surely get 6 points.

[erwink]

Originally posted by Frankfurt Blue
It's true though! Name a great German individual player. Beckenbauer? Nope - great team player, yes. You just have players who do the right job, which is certainly no bad thing, I have to admit.

Klinsmann was a great individual player. If I'm not mistaken he was the 1994-95 English premier player of the year with Tottenham. As for luck, good teams create their own luck. Germany can lay claim to being the second best team of all time. Check the trophy shelf! You just sound like another British Blowhard still boasting about 1966.