Fergie: I could have saved Gazza

[comme]

Apparently Fergie has come out in the press and said that his greatest regret was not signing Gazza in 1988 when he joined Spurs.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article4057616.ece

"I think it was a bad mistake, and Paul admits it. We had Bryan Robson, a Geordie, Steve Bruce, a Geordie, Gary Pallister, from Middlesbrough... We had a structure of players who could have helped him and it could have given him some discipline."

Now as a Spurs fan this actually quite annoys me because the suggestion is that by moving to Spurs rather than United, Gazza became the wreck that he is today.

When Fergie took the mantle up from Big Ron, was there really this "structure" in place? It was famously said that Atkinson's three best players (Robson, Whiteside and McGrath) were also his three biggest drinkers. What did Fergie do with these players? Well he kept Captain Marvel, but he just got rid of Whiteside and McGrath. Where was the structure to save these great players?

Furthermore Gascoigne's career actually hit the skids when he moved to Lazio for what was at the time a huge fee (pretty sure it was originally going to be £8m until Gazza got injured).

So, your thoughts, could Fergie have "saved" Gazza or is he just talking shit? Is it possible to save a man like Gazza from himself?

[MtP07]

:confused:

Where does Fergie say he could 'have saved him'? I see the one line about being able to provide more discipline, but the headline in the story seems like typical tabloid exaggeration.

[comme]

:confused:

Where does Fergie say he could 'have saved him'? I see the one line about being able to provide more discipline, but the headline in the story seems like typical tabloid exaggeration.

"I think it was a bad mistake, and Paul admits it. We had Bryan Robson, a Geordie, Steve Bruce, a Geordie, Gary Pallister, from Middlesbrough... We had a structure of players who could have helped him and it could have given him some discipline."

The headline may be taking that on a bit, but the "help" and "discipline" imply that he wouldn't be in his current state.

[MtP07]

I still think you are taking the implication too far. It sounds like Fergie is saying we had some players who possibly could have looked after Gazza better because they were from the same area. It's not like Fergie is calling Spurs out specifically as dropping the ball and saying United were his only saving grace.

[sdotsom]

Way to inflame Fergie's words into some crazy statement like "save". It seems like you just want an argument, Comme.

Fergie simply said that there were other Geordies in his side who were established at the time who could have maybe helped Gazza out. He's making the point that moving to London at age 21, which Gazza did, could be a rough move, rather than going up North. Furthermore, Fergie has been masterful at dealing with young up-and-coming talent, and keeping their feet on the ground, for the most part. The Class of 92 are an example. Finally, I believe he said that "Gazza regrets it all the time", regarding his choice, so maybe he's told Fergie since then that he regrets it.

Making a mountain out of a molehill, this thread.

[433tom]

Location also comes into play. There would have less less distractions for the lad than there were playing in London.

[comme]

Way to inflame Fergie's words into some crazy statement like "save". It seems like you just want an argument, Comme.

It's not me who is making a "crazy statement". These are yesterday's headlines

Times: "We could have saved Paul Gascoigne"

Mirror: "I could have saved Gazza"

Mail: "I could have saved Gazza if only he signed for United"

I posted the link and the quote to show what he actually said, so I fail to see how I'm inflaming Fergie's words. The implication is pretty clear from what he said.

Fergie simply said that there were other Geordies in his side who were established at the time who could have maybe helped Gazza out. He's making the point that moving to London at age 21, which Gazza did, could be a rough move, rather than going up North. Furthermore, Fergie has been masterful at dealing with young up-and-coming talent, and keeping their feet on the ground, for the most part. The Class of 92 are an example. Finally, I believe he said that "Gazza regrets it all the time", regarding his choice, so maybe he's told Fergie since then that he regrets it.

Making a mountain out of a molehill, this thread.

There were two Geordies in the team at the time (Pallister didn't even join United until 1989), compared to Spurs one (Chris Waddle), so that may have made some small difference. If he needed to hang around with Geordies though, maybe staying at Newcastle might have been the right idea.

What is Fergie's "masterful" record of dealing with youngsters anyway?

Fergie has never successfully managed a player like Gazza. The class of 92, that have succeeded were all model pros. The Nevilles, Scholes, Butt, Beckham which of them was going to go off the rails?

The only players with any sort of alcohol of partying problems he just shipped out. McGrath? Out. Whiteside? Out. Sharpe? Out.

I don't really think I'm making something out of nothing here. I'm asking a question. If Bill Nicholson had said, "I could have helped George Best, had he joined Spurs", do you think anyone here might object to it?

Location also comes into play. There would have less less distractions for the lad than there were playing in London.

That would be a point, except Gazza played the best football of his career in London. It was when he went to Italy that things started to go wrong for him.

[Dark Savante]

Interesting.

Not sure why this is any kind of deal, comme?

And I wouldn't say his problems started in Italy. He was wilding out at Spurs at times and that attempted lunge that injured him so badly was the culmination of it.

Fergie's comments are slightly off, in one way, but in another you've mixed two things up. Gazza was young and naive, not yet 'gone' and in no way ruined. McGrath, Whiteside and co were Atkinson's mess and ruined and outside of reach well before Fergie got to them.

Fergie nipped Giggsy in the bud at a similar age to Gascoigne and turned him into a model pro rather than a player left to find his own way and I think in that sense Fergie would have made damn sure not to allow Gascoigne the chance to 'find himself' rather he'd have been imbued with the manager's fire, focus and beliefs.

I don't think he was right to mention 'Geordies' per se. Robbo was the main culprit of a lot of things, after all, but to say being in Manchester at that time would have given him less chance to slip isn't a stretch. I'm surprised, for example, that you're saying Gascoigne's problems 'began' in Italy. They were merely amplified and allowed to cultivate from the seeds that had already been sewn, which is slightly different.

I personally feel that our manager would have made sure to have Gazza attached to the younger ones in the squad (Giggsy and the kids that came up a few years later) with the hope they'd all grow into model professionals together. That's how, if it was at all possible, that Gascoigne would've been 'saved'.

[cr7torossi]

http://www.football365.com/mediawatch/0,17033,8749,00.html

comme using the exact same argument used by f365 yesterday. Coincidence, I think not:D

[comme]

Interesting.

Not sure why this is any kind of deal, comme?

Well Gazza is possibly the most talented player to come out of Britain in the last 40 years, Fergie the most succesful manager of recent decades. So when one talks about the other, it becomes newsworthy.

And I wouldn't say his problems started in Italy. He was wilding out at Spurs at times and that attempted lunge that injured him so badly was the culmination of it.

That lunge and the injury that it led to were the beginning of it all. But how different was that to the sort of "tackles" that Rooney puts in on a regular basis? Sometimes you get away with them, Gazza got unlucky and got injured.

Gazza's restlessness is his primary problem and that began to become an issue after the 1991 final.

Fergie's comments are slightly off, in one way, but in another you've mixed two things up. Gazza was young and naive, not yet 'gone' and in no way ruined. McGrath, Whiteside and co were Atkinson's mess and ruined and outside of reach well before Fergie got to them.

McGrath was 27 when Fergie joined, and would go on to be POTY and play his best football at a later date. He was in no way "ruined".

Whiteside was 21, the same age as Gazza would have been had he joined in 1988. So how was he "ruined" but Gazza was merely "young and naive"?

Fergie nipped Giggsy in the bud at a similar age to Gascoigne and turned him into a model pro rather than a player left to find his own way and I think in that sense Fergie would have made damn sure not to allow Gascoigne the chance to 'find himself' rather he'd have been imbued with the manager's fire, focus and beliefs.

Giggs was a United product. He was playing in the first team at 17. But Giggs and Gascoigne are hugely different personalities. Giggs may have knocked about with Sharpe and Dani Behr, but he never had the uncontrollable energy of Gazza or his lack of sense. That was clear in both men from the off.

I don't think he was right to mention 'Geordies' per se. Robbo was the main culprit of a lot of things, after all, but to say being in Manchester at that time would have given him less chance to slip isn't a stretch. I'm surprised, for example, that you're saying Gascoigne's problems 'began' in Italy. They were merely amplified and allowed to cultivate from the seeds that had already been sewn, which is slightly different.

Gazza is a man who needs activity. I don't know if you've ever read the book "All Played Out", but in it (and it's based on Italia 90 when the author had unprecedented access to the England team) it's clear that Gazza has a near unlimited amount of energy. After training he's want to play tennis with someone, then he'd go for a run, then he'd come back and start playing pranks.

A man like that really struggles to take injuries, because he can't do anything. Gazza's first major injury came after Spurs had agreed to sell him to Lazio. From that point on the issues began.

I personally feel that our manager would have made sure to have Gazza attached to the younger ones in the squad (Giggsy and the kids that came up a few years later) with the hope they'd all grow into model professionals together. That's how, if it was at all possible, that Gascoigne would've been 'saved'.

Gazza though is 6-7 years older than Giggs, and years again older than Scholes et al. So the idea that they could "grow up" together seems unlikely, let alone that they could help to save him.

[comme]

http://www.football365.com/mediawatch/0,17033,8749,00.html

comme using the exact same argument used by f365 yesterday. Coincidence, I think not:D

Well I'd never been on that site before, but the points are all the same yes.

[cr7torossi]

Well I'd never been on that site before, but the points are all the same yes.

bah... I was hoping you would take the bait:D

[Dark Savante]

Well Gazza is possibly the most talented player to come out of Britain in the last 40 years, Fergie the most succesful manager of recent decades. So when one talks about the other, it becomes newsworthy.
Not really. I saw the interview and shrugged and thought maybe, maybe not. I think cos Gazza is the last great pride of your club it struck more of a chord for you.


That lunge and the injury that it led to were the beginning of it all. But how different was that to the sort of "tackles" that Rooney puts in on a regular basis? Sometimes you get away with them, Gazza got unlucky and got injured.
I was going to mention Rooney in my opener, they are similar, but the point I'm trying to make is that you can at least try and temper such personalities. You may not be able to completely tame or subdue them, but you can make them fully aware of the rights and wrongs repeatedly. And in that sense Ferguson is the kind of fly someone like Gazza needed buzzing around him not giving him time for so much 'free thought'

Rooney is more discplined now than he used to be, so the effects of growing up under Fergie's wing are being evidenced. I shudder to think what he would have turned out like if he were allowed to carry on attempting to decapitate people without reprimand as it seems Moyes allowed at Everton.

Ferguson has handled some odd and tempestuous characters in his time, can you think of a better person to have reined Gazza in? Seriously.


Gazza's restlessness is his primary problem and that began to become an issue after the 1991 final.
I'm aware of that, my point is it didnt just happen it was a culmination. A youngster going off the rails gradually and self-destructing along the way. I instantly think back to Lineker pointing to the bench at wc '90 intimating that Robson keep an eye on Gazza as he was welling up. It's like a microcosm of what he needed at club level. Ferguson would undoubtedly give a player that time.


McGrath was 27 when Fergie joined, and would go on to be POTY and play his best football at a later date. He was in no way "ruined".
No.

McGrath was a mess who needed the jolt and rock bottomness of being booted out of OT to get himself together enough to prove Fergie wrong for letting him go. He would not listen to reason here and was far past the point of saving by the time Fergie had hands on him. His age isn't important, his mental state and health is. You can nip seeds in the bud, but McGrath was a huge oak by the time Fergie was to take him to task.


Whiteside was 21, the same age as Gazza would have been had he joined in 1988. So how was he "ruined" but Gazza was merely "young and naive"?
See above. Age bears no relevance. If you're gone, you're gone. Whiteside is an example of ruin and he rues it to this day.

Gascoigne was in no way at the point of ruin even as late as '91 he was wild and heading toward his own path of self-destruction, but he was not mentored to it like Rambo was under the tutelege of McGrath.


Giggs was a United product. He was playing in the first team at 17. But Giggs and Gascoigne are hugely different personalities. Giggs may have knocked about with Sharpe and Dani Behr, but he never had the uncontrollable energy of Gazza or his lack of sense. That was clear in both men from the off.
This is the point. You're saying Giggs was this or that, I'm almost certain he turned out how he did because Fergie nipped it in the bud. Gazza's energy could have been harnassed and put into his football and betterment of his game if he'd been caught early. That's my thinking on this.


Gazza is a man who needs activity. I don't know if you've ever read the book "All Played Out", but in it (and it's based on Italia 90 when the author had unprecedented access to the England team) it's clear that Gazza has a near unlimited amount of energy. After training he's want to play tennis with someone, then he'd go for a run, then he'd come back and start playing pranks.

A man like that really struggles to take injuries, because he can't do anything. Gazza's first major injury came after Spurs had agreed to sell him to Lazio. From that point on the issues began.
I know about his energy and restleness, what I've said above is what I believe Fergie would have given him. Something to channel all that energy into instead of having be so wild and uncontrolled.

I don't believe Gazza's problems started at the date you mention, they were there and dormant for a while before that and it was surfacing and coming to the boil over time. I don't think Spurs or Bobby Robson, for that matter, foresaw just how that energy would manifest itself. Occupy mischief or it will get up to no good, eh?



Gazza though is 6-7 years older than Giggs, and years again older than Scholes et al. So the idea that they could "grow up" together seems unlikely, let alone that they could help to save him.
He's always been a big kid, and there's no way he was more adult than the pack, I feel they'd have suited him down to the ground. Gazza was a Peter Pan and his behaviour looked well out of place with those of his own age.

Having some of that energy go towards him having a big brother role would have done him some good.

This is my take on it

[comme]

Not really. I saw the interview and shrugged and thought maybe, maybe not. I think cos Gazza is the last great pride of your club it struck more of a chord for you.

I'm not sure he is the "last great pride". He was a fan favourite, but we're not talking about Glenn Hoddle here. There have been players since as well loved at the Lane.

I just saw it as another of example of Fergie talking rubbish and rewriting history, like his mouthing off about Franco last week.

I was going to mention Rooney in my opener, they are similar, but the point I'm trying to make is that you can at least try and temper such personalities. You may not be able to completely tame or subdue them, but you can make them fully aware of the rights and wrongs repeatedly. And in that sense Ferguson is the kind of fly someone like Gazza needed buzzing around him not giving him time for so much 'free thought'

Rooney is more discplined now than he used to be, so the effects of growing up under Fergie's wing are being evidenced. I shudder to think what he would have turned out like if he were allowed to carry on attempting to decapitate people without reprimand as it seems Moyes allowed at Everton.

Ferguson has handled some odd and tempestuous characters in his time, can you think of a better person to have reined Gazza in? Seriously.

Most people would say though that while Rooney's discipline has improved his ability and potential have fallen. It astonishes me that it is 4 years since the last Euros, when Rooney was being hailed (admittedly with some hyperbole) as the "white Pele". At the time people were saying he was the biggest talent since Gazza, but now?

If Ferguson would have "saved" Gazza by reducing him to a shell of himself the player he became then to an extent (and thinking purely in football terms) most would rather that he was left alone.

I'm aware of that, my point is it didnt just happen it was a culmination. A youngster going off the rails gradually and self-destructing along the way. I instantly think back to Lineker pointing to the bench at wc '90 intimating that Robson keep an eye on Gazza as he was welling up. It's like a microcosm of what he needed at club level. Ferguson would undoubtedly give a player that time.

At international level though you can watch over players 24 hours a day because you are in a training camp. You just can't do that at a club. The potential was always there but it only came to a head after his injury.


No.

McGrath was a mess who needed the jolt and rock bottomness of being booted out of OT to get himself together enough to prove Fergie wrong for letting him go. He would not listen to reason here and was far past the point of saving by the time Fergie had hands on him. His age isn't important, his mental state and health is. You can nip seeds in the bud, but McGrath was a huge oak by the time Fergie was to take him to task.

Yet Atkinson turned him around and made him a better player. Surely Fergie could have done that if he is so good at reining in such unpredictable characters.

See above. Age bears no relevance. If you're gone, you're gone. Whiteside is an example of ruin and he rues it to this day.

Gascoigne was in no way at the point of ruin even as late as '91 he was wild and heading toward his own path of self-destruction, but he was not mentored to it like Rambo was under the tutelege of McGrath.

So you'd want Gazza to join a club with 3 big piss-heads among the top players? Just as likely is that given a year in the presence of those three Gazza would have been "ruined" at an earlier age.

Then we'd have El Tel saying "I could have saved Gazza if he'd joined Spurs".

This is the point. You're saying Giggs was this or that, I'm almost certain he turned out how he did because Fergie nipped it in the bud. Gazza's energy could have been harnassed and put into his football and betterment of his game if he'd been caught early. That's my thinking on this.

Giggs though from every interview I've seen of him in the last 17 years is quite a shy person, mild mannered and quiet. Gazza was never like that. Maybe Fergie nipped it in the bud, maybe, or more likely, he was just like that. Some people are and some people aren't.

Fergie never nipped Lee Sharpe in the bud.

I know about his energy and restleness, what I've said above is what I believe Fergie would have given him. Something to channel all that energy into instead of having be so wild and uncontrolled.

I don't believe Gazza's problems started at the date you mention, they were there and dormant for a while before that and it was surfacing and coming to the boil over time. I don't think Spurs or Bobby Robson, for that matter, foresaw just how that energy would manifest itself. Occupy mischief or it will get up to no good, eh?

Gazza always had that inside himself, but it could be contained when he was fit. In fact Spurs made to an extent the Gazza we remember. When Gazza arrived in 1988 it was for a British record fee (£2m) by 1991 he was set to leave for a world record fee (£8.5m).

We did channel his energy, that's how he became the finished article with us.

He's always been a big kid, and there's no way he was more adult than the pack, I feel they'd have suited him down to the ground. Gazza was a Peter Pan and his behaviour looked well out of place with those of his own age.

Having some of that energy go towards him having a big brother role would have done him some good.

This is my take on it

Maybe the case. Just as likely though Gazza helps push a few others off the rails. Pure speculation really.

[johno]

bitter.


Ferguson never claimed he could save him. He said he could have helped and he would have added discipline. To question that is to take leave of your wits. Ferguson is a disciplinarian. He doesn't take shit from nobody. Stam, Ruud, McGrath, Whiteside, Beckham - whadeva. You get in line and you get in line fast. Discipline and order have been tennets of his and I don't think its wrong to say that some discipline would have helped Gazza.

If you are willing to go beyond what the quotes say then that's your opinion on what you interpret Ferguson's opinion on a highly subjective matter. I'd need a degree in quantum physics just to get started. No thanks :D

[comme]

bitter.

Eh? If this is going to descend into name calling then just say now and save us both the wasted breath.

Ferguson never claimed he could save him. He said he could have helped and he would have added discipline. To question that is to take leave of your wits. Ferguson is a disciplinarian. He doesn't take shit from nobody. Stam, Ruud, McGrath, Whiteside, Beckham - whadeva. You get in line and you get in line fast. Discipline and order have been tennets of his and I don't think its wrong to say that some discipline would have helped Gazza.

Possibly it might have helped him. Alternatively he could have been tossed aside like the others that you mention. What Gazza has always needed in my opinion is not discipline, but love. You need to nurture a player like that and look after him.

If you are willing to go beyond what the quotes say then that's your opinion on what you interpret Ferguson's opinion on a highly subjective matter. I'd need a degree in quantum physics just to get started. No thanks :D

Well that was the interpretation used by all the newspapers so I don't think it's asking that much. If the Times, Mirror, Mail, Metro, Star all interpret it like that there must be some small reason.

[sdotsom]

Well that was the interpretation used by all the newspapers so I don't think it's asking that much. If the Times, Mirror, Mail, Metro, Star all interpret it like that there must be some small reason.

You're using tabloid headlines to try and find the meaning of a quote? Come on now Comme :D.

I do think that the disposition of players in the Class of 92 and other youngsters who've come up since are partially due to Fergie, not that the players came in with it. In Giggsy's Sky special a few days ago, he spoke of how Fergie came over to his house once to give him and Sharpey a hairdryer right there, to put their feet on the ground. So Fergie is simply saying that he would have done the same with Gazza. Obviously he was a different age, had been playing more already at the time - but I think the fact that Fergie says "Gazza admits it" means alot right there.

[Drae]

Sir Alex probably would have been the best manager for Gascoigne, but I am not sure it would have made a huge difference in the end.

Gascoigne is very different to someone like Rooney, who just has issues with anger and self discipline.

Gascoigne was exposed to a number of traumatic events quite early on in life. Reports I have read state that he has major mental illness, with OCD, Bipolar disorder, and also Substance use. It is possible that being in a more stable and supportive environment could have been helpful for him, but it seems to me he still would have been in a very high pressure environment, more so perhaps. I think it may well have turned out that even if he had come to us, he still would have gone on to have major difficulties.

I hope that Gascoigne gets the help that he needs. We have had a case here in Australia with a famous rugby player, Andrew Johns who struggled with Bipolar disorder and drug use for years. It was known at his club that he had problems, but he was treated as a special case, and things were kept secret. It now seems that he is getting the help he needs, and things have improved for him. I hope the same can happen for Gascoigne.

[Father Ted]

It's not me who is making a "crazy statement". These are yesterday's headlines

Times: "We could have saved Paul Gascoigne"

Mirror: "I could have saved Gazza"

Mail: "I could have saved Gazza if only he signed for United"

I posted the link and the quote to show what he actually said, so I fail to see how I'm inflaming Fergie's words. The implication is pretty clear from what he said.



There were two Geordies in the team at the time (Pallister didn't even join United until 1989), compared to Spurs one (Chris Waddle), so that may have made some small difference. If he needed to hang around with Geordies though, maybe staying at Newcastle might have been the right idea.

What is Fergie's "masterful" record of dealing with youngsters anyway?

Fergie has never successfully managed a player like Gazza. The class of 92, that have succeeded were all model pros. The Nevilles, Scholes, Butt, Beckham which of them was going to go off the rails?

The only players with any sort of alcohol of partying problems he just shipped out. McGrath? Out. Whiteside? Out. Sharpe? Out.
...

Roy Keane comes to mind. He was a bit of a loose cannon when he first joined United, famed for going on the tear and getting into fights if memory serves me. Fergie straightened him out and he turned out ok.

[Dark Savante]

I just saw it as another of example of Fergie talking rubbish and rewriting history, like his mouthing off about Franco last week.
If that's the case then surely you're just venting rather than wanting a discussion about it?

It seems to me like the comment offended you because of your club affiliation, whereas for me it was 'meh' and nothing else.


Most people would say though that while Rooney's discipline has improved his ability and potential have fallen. It astonishes me that it is 4 years since the last Euros, when Rooney was being hailed (admittedly with some hyperbole) as the "white Pele". At the time people were saying he was the biggest talent since Gazza, but now?

If Ferguson would have "saved" Gazza by reducing him to a shell of himself the player he became then to an extent (and thinking purely in football terms) most would rather that he was left alone.
Rooney is obviously a work in progress. I don't think you can say a 22-yr-old is done. Fergie has a good track record with difficult personalities though. You can't cite the likes of McGrath, a bonafide alcholic before our man had even got to the club as an example of one he couldn't 'save'


Yet Atkinson turned him around and made him a better player. Surely Fergie could have done that if he is so good at reining in such unpredictable characters.
He did no such thing.

McGrath sorted himself out and was still pissed up when playing there, but not as bad as he was here.

see above for the rest of the McGrath comment.


So you'd want Gazza to join a club with 3 big piss-heads among the top players? Just as likely is that given a year in the presence of those three Gazza would have been "ruined" at an earlier age.

Then we'd have El Tel saying "I could have saved Gazza if he'd joined Spurs".


I don't think he was right to mention 'Geordies' per se. Robbo was the main culprit of a lot of things, after all, but to say being in Manchester at that time would have given him less chance to slip isn't a stretch.

At no point have I said Gazza would definitely have been 'saved' if he had come here, but I think there'd have been more chance of it, that's all.


Giggs though from every interview I've seen of him in the last 17 years is quite a shy person, mild mannered and quiet. Gazza was never like that. Maybe Fergie nipped it in the bud, maybe, or more likely, he was just like that. Some people are and some people aren't.

Fergie never nipped Lee Sharpe in the bud.
What about Roy Keane? Who was borderline sociopathic when he first got here.

You're not possibly trying to say Fergie hasn't 'fixed' a number of characters in his time here are you?




Gazza always had that inside himself, but it could be contained when he was fit. In fact Spurs made to an extent the Gazza we remember. When Gazza arrived in 1988 it was for a British record fee (£2m) by 1991 he was set to leave for a world record fee (£8.5m).

We did channel his energy, that's how he became the finished article with us.
Not really. Gascoigne's talent was undeniable , fit and playing he'd have turned out like that at a number of clubs. Fergie wanted him for a reason.

His mental state wasn't addressed or reined in if he was still so loose a cannon. Again, I'm not saying Fergie could've fixed that, but I think he'd have been the best bet in the country to do so.


Maybe the case. Just as likely though Gazza helps push a few others off the rails. Pure speculation really.
What else is this thread supposed to be for?