Kiddy Farming?

[Dark Savante]

So you have an academy and need to make a lot more money from it than you used to need.

You need to cover the costs of the facility and the wages of the youngsters at all levels of the academy set-up, but you also want to generate cash to use on 1st squad affairs.

A short cut?

You poach the highly touted youngsters from around Europe or the world where professional forms can't be signed until 18. You offer them a deal and the carrot of potentially playing for Manchester United.

You then play them for a bit, before sending them out on loan at a continental club. Basically generating interest and getting your product out there and known.

You recall them to the 1st squad the following summer window and continue to dangle the carrot of first team football in front of their faces until they become disillusioned and ask for an out.

At this point you sell them for £4m-£8m a pop to suitors who have seen them perform the season prior when they were on loan. Kerching, you've put towards Carrington, The Academy, wages and have money left over to contribute to first team affairs.

Your reputation is kept intact because for one, you are massive club and offered them a chance, for two, they asked to leave rather than you showing them the door, and 3 you gave them a few sniffs of 1st team action.

Rinse and repeat.

Accurate. Or a load of conspiracy-laden bollocks?

[Invincible]

Sounds like the perfect plan to me. Wouldn't put it past the board/management.

[Dark Savante]

I should add that getting so much money for reserves is practically unheard of.

A great hustle...?

[Vermont Red]

I'd say that the ones who don't think that there's a conspiracy will look at each individual case and give the reasons why the player had to be sold and why it's not part of a new modis operandi of United. The ones who think its a conspiracy will look at the big picture without considering that all cases are not equal.

Assuming this only applies to players we poach, then I guess Evans and Simpson don't enter this equation. I guess we're only talking about Rossi and Pique. Rossi is not a 9 and he's not (yet?) better than Tevez. If Evans stays then Pique's way is blocked by three superior defenders plus Brown. I'll need to see what happens to some of the others we currently have at the reserve level.

[Invincible]

I should add that getting so much money for reserves is practically unheard of.

A great hustle...?

Probably is. We keep the super duper talented ones/the most loyal ones and sell off those who aren't in awe of the club and want to progress their careers as soon as possible. Macheda and Possebon possibly to follow? Although in Possebon's case I'd rather he stayed since he's the closest thing to Scholes in terms of ball retention ability I've seen at our club atm.

[Twix]

We need a #9.

We don't buy a #9 in January.

Fergie comes out publicly near the end of the season and says he'll buy a #9.

David Gill reassures everyone and says we will make money available.

He pops over to our farm, looks at our most valuable kids, who are under the impression that they'll get a chance with the first team (silly them!) and tells them they're free to go. Auction them off to potential harvestors and take the largest bid.

Hey presto! There's our transfer budget! Gill has made the money available!

---

That's my own personal view on how it works. We are now in the position where we must sell to buy. It's the only way I can rationalize it.

Ruud - Out
Carrick - In

Smith, Rossi, Richardson, Heinze - out
Hargreaves, Tevez, Nani, Anderson - in

Pique, ?? - out
?? - in

[biro]

A few years ago, before the takeover, some United fans used to bleat that we let our young lads leave for nothing or for peanuts. Now, when we actually make some money off the better ones, some United fans complain about that too.

So it's true, you can't actually please everyone all the time.

[Stud83]

It's Business 101. Well, maybe 102. It's fine as long as it works well.

[Father Ted]

I don't buy the conspiracy.

I don't think that is our strategy, it is more a result of the limitations of giving young players consistant first team action. These players get a taste of that when they go on loan and when they come back, are not to pleased about sitting around. Simple as.

The bigger question is why young players don't get the same chances in the first XI like in previous years such as the 92 group etc. I for one do not think we need a new RB because we have the chance to mould someone like Simpson. Sadly, he only played a couple of games this season.

[Vermont Red]

So it's true, you can't actually please everyone all the time.

It's not about making money, its about youth players not breaking through.

[Vermont Red]

The bigger question is why young players don't get the same chances in the first XI like in previous years such as the 92 group etc.

Part of me wonders if Fergie's obsession with getting a few more trophies before he retires is behind all this. His obsession won't allow him to take chances with the younger players.

Of course, part of me believes that Fergie can do no wrong with regards to personnel.

[pgr17]

The bigger question is why young players don't get the same chances in the first XI like in previous years such as the 92 group etc.
because we have to win at least one trophy every year... to bleed our youngsters into the first team and take the chance that we could could fall behind to 3rd, 4th, or even 5th place is unthinkable these days. we have to win every single year. the brand could almost be bigger than the club at this point.

those days are (sadly) over. when Roman took over Chelsea - as it has been said many times on here - the bar was raised and in order to compete with that we have to buy, buy, buy and win now, now, now. there is no time to build for the future.

we can have the players and they can star on other teams but the idea of an academy player making it to the first team and keeping that first team slot is less and less an option.

out of our first team that play regularly how many are from our academy (excluding Scholes and Giggs)?

[biro]

It's not about making money, its about youth players not breaking through.

They're not breaking through because they're not better than what we've got at the moment. The Rio/Vidic partnership is the strongest in the league, is Fergie going to drop one of them for 20-odd games just to give Pique game time? Of course not. That partnership could play together for another 5 years, so Pique's hardly going to want to stick around. I suspect Evans is of a similar mind, though with Gerard leaving it frees a spot up in the squad for him. Whether he's prepared to accept a squad place with one of the biggest clubs in the world rather than a guaranteed starting place with Sunderland is another matter.

[Vermont Red]

They're not breaking through because they're not better than what we've got at the moment.

So you would only play young players when they're already better than their direct competition? That's quite a high standard. Given that the ceiling for Pique and Evans is higher than for Vidic, I think it'd be worth a shot to give those players a shot. The only thing they lack is experience.

[Motterman]

Accurate. Or a load of conspiracy-laden bollocks?

I don't think it's a conspiracy at all.

I think Fergie realized about 5-6 years ago that we needed to reinvest in our youth system, and we eventually ended up with teams in 2 leagues because we had so much youth talent....

Then we gutted it (and the Women's team, cause there's no money there) and embraced the philosophy you were easily able to clarify.

I also wouldn't put the blame squarely on Glazer's cost cutting mission (cause we also cleared out a lot of backroom support staff around the same time) but there was also the 90 minute rule that came, that severely crippled our ability to recruit youths from around the country.... we're basically taking advantage of the only system available to us, thanks to those twats at the FA.

Besides, it takes years to reap the rewards of a top class youth setup, where DS's plan above only takes a year or two to make a hefty profit.

[DutchFootballRulez]

I don't buy the conspiracy.

I don't think that is our strategy, it is more a result of the limitations of giving young players consistant first team action. These players get a taste of that when they go on loan and when they come back, are not to pleased about sitting around. Simple as.

The bigger question is why young players don't get the same chances in the first XI like in previous years such as the 92 group etc. I for one do not think we need a new RB because we have the chance to mould someone like Simpson. Sadly, he only played a couple of games this season.

I think your philosophy is correct but the Academy system no longer uses it. For example; Simpson being moulded into a new RB would mean he would replace Gary Neville when G-Nev could no longer cut it. Let's say Neville never plays again; then Simpson is your new starting Right Fullback. The philosophy WAS that Danny Simpson Will be a MUQ defender. However; in the Post-Abramovich Era allowing Danny Simpson to make mistakes as the starter is intolerable. 'We can't sacrifice trophies to strengthen the roots of the club'.

It's Catch-22 Simpson cannot be a proven talent until he plays big matches.

[FabregasTED]

People give us slack for playing our youth/reserves in the Carling Cup, but if you look at alot of the players we've brought up through that tournament (and yes, for the most part we've "poached" them from other clubs, but they're still prospects) you'll see a good many of them have worked their way into the first team. Fabregas, Clichy, Toure, Diaby, Bendtner, Walcott, Almunia, and to a lesser extent Hleb and Adebayor all got their first significant run in the team by making several starts in the Carling Cup, which as a knock out competition with a European spot for grabs is far better experience than any reserve game can give you.
The point? Well I don't think Manchester United feels the same way about their reserves anymore. If you look at their preferred starting eleven, its obvious that the need to compete for every trophy imagineable has filled their team with players who can immediately walk into any starting XI in the league. Is it fun to see your academy players come through and play for the first team? Absolutely. Clubs like Milan and Barcelona have always balanced bringing up youthful talent and buying experienced stars. Clubs like Real Madrid, Inter, and Bayern have always tended to spend to plug holes, and I think United sees themselves in that mould rather than the other.
So when a player like Pique, who is clearly talented, but wouldn't be a part of your plans this or even next year, what's the point of hanging on to him? Yes, he apparently wants to leave, but there's obviously a market for him, and for your purposes he's redundant, so why not sell? Prospect farming is unfortunately a huge part of all sports right now, and for good or bad the teams that take advantage of it are the ones that can compete for trophies year in and out. Whether or not it affects the soul of the club, though, I guess you have to figure out for yourself.

[Red Jeph]

However; in the Post-Abramovich Era allowing Danny Simpson to make mistakes as the starter is intolerable. 'We can't sacrifice trophies to strengthen the roots of the club'.


I think that is the crux. I don't believe this is some big conspiracy, I think its another symptom of what it takes to keep up now. There is simply no margin for error. Pique will probably be better than Vidic, but we can't afford to put him in there on a regular basis until he actually is. We can only afford to build him up slowly, and Pique wants to play more than that, same with Rossi.

The true test will come with someone who truly wants to stay and fight for his place, maybe it will be Evans. But it doesn't make sense that it is just about the money... we likely could have gotten close to the same fee for Wes, but Wes apparently wanted to stay more than be guaranteed a spot... Pique did not.

[sdotsom]

Don't believe it's a conspiracy. We simply have been forced to up everything a notch, and unfortunately it's taken its toll on us.


However, I am really saddened by Rossi and Pique's loss, particularly because I think the squad could have been managed in a way for both to stay.

[pgr17]

if Rossi was here this season he definitely would have played a lot of games.

you look at the injuries that we've had in the past and injuries that teams like Chelsea have had and when you play the amount of games that we do we are setting ourselves up.

but there is always the fact that they cannot guarantee Pique games and he will leave next year regardless if he stays this year and get some games (more than 10).

just the sad state of today's game for the upper echelon teams.