Netherlands vs Italy - Monday 9th June [r]

[johan neeskens]

If you do play a scholastic 4-4-2 you can say how attacking a side is by seeing the positions when you don't have the ball. But we're talking about the top of football and those squared judge are irrelevant.
Do you see the first action i indicated to you? We were already in the possession, that's how we attack, we switch from a 2 attacking/midfielder to 2 attacker.
Anyway it's irrilevant how Dutch considers the scheme, I'm answering you about your doubt on our 4-3-3. And I can safely judge our scheme as it is, a 4-3-2-1.

We're just looking at this from a different perspective. I grew up in the Dutch school of football, and in that school of football, the style of football Italy play is considered defensive. I don't see how that's something to get upset about either.

And yes you do switch very quickly from defence to attack, again that's the sign of a class counterattacking side, and precisely my point!

[johan neeskens]

As long as I'm italian, i saw every match about Italy, and that's why dor02 said that it's a stereotypical vision. If you haven't follow us through years you can't say for sure we used to play defensive, because, simply is not true.

I can safely say you've always sat back against Holland. And again I don't see why this is an issue for you considering your record v Holland. It's been effective, what more do you want? I'd gladly switch Holland's reputation for being an attacking side for Italy's four world cup wins thank you very much.

[Khaloisha]

We're just looking at this from a different perspective. I grew up in the Dutch school of football, and in that school of football, the style of football Italy play is considered defensive. I don't see how that's something to get upset about either.

And yes you do switch very quickly from defence to attack, again that's the sign of a class counterattacking side, and precisely my point!

Your point is us being 5 midfielder, while i've already said (several times by now) that we play 2 attacking midfielder, which in a scheme are put behind the one in attack and before the 3 midfielder. And I'm not upset, how did you presume that?

[Khaloisha]

I can safely say you've always sat back against Holland. And again I don't see why this is an issue for you considering your record v Holland. It's been effective, what more do you want? I'd gladly switch Holland's reputation for being an attacking side for Italy's four world cup wins thank you very much.

It's an issue because we left Catenaccio years ago, and still people thinks we play only defensively. I'd like to inform my european friends that those times are gone for Italy.

[forza_azzurri]

Canna was your captain and the best defender on Italy's squad!!
I cant put it any clearer then that.

But by all means correct me if I'm wrong and back it up with links, please.
Thank you ;)

He was our Captain but NOT our best defender. Anybody who claims this has been asleep for the past 2 years.

Italy's defense hasn't exactly been rock solid during qualifying.

....but anything that makes you feel better is alright by me and some Azzurri fans are already making early excuses.

[ILCT]

We're just looking at this from a different perspective. I grew up in the Dutch school of football, and in that school of football, the style of football Italy play is considered defensive. I don't see how that's something to get upset about either.

And yes you do switch very quickly from defence to attack, again that's the sign of a class counterattacking side, and precisely my point!

i spent 5 years playing for a prominent italian youth program and your style of play is considered impractical and one that leads to very little success if any.

[ILCT]

i don't know what everyone's getting riled up about. even without cannavaro we're still a much better side than the dutch. technically the defenders donadoni choose, for the most part can all play CB because tactically they all have the ability to play his high-pressure system. whether it's chiellini, materazzi or panucci, i'd still take any one of these 3 over the dutch offering without thinking twice.

[ILCT]

He was our Captain but NOT our best defender. Anybody who claims this has been asleep for the past 2 years.

Italy's defense hasn't exactly been rock solid during qualifying.

....but anything that makes you feel better is alright by me and some Azzurri fans are already making early excuses.

enlighten me, who has been if canna wasn't?

[Amsteldam]

enlighten me, who has been if canna wasn't?
Very good question, I'd like to hear the answer to that :)

[canzano55]

The Dutch are always a threat and traditionally play a brand of offensive high-tempo football that makes the prospect of playing them an unnerving one.

Objectively though, this is currently a very mediocre generation of Dutch players and with the exception of Ruud (a world class European record holder) the comparison in quality to the Italian NT isn't even close.

The arsenal of forwards at Donadoni's disposal is overwhelming plus the flexibility he has in midfield between attacking and defending not to mention the quality he has at either fullback position is more than decent.

On top of all that Donadoni has the best GK in the world and although Van der saar has had an excellent season at club level he was working with an incredibly improved Man United defense whereas with the Dutch - I imagine he'll see many more shots on his goal.

Finally Italy are playing better as a team more than any other national side with the exception of Germany.

Ofcourse like its been said before anything can happen in football but if the Dutch were to walk away with three points it would have to beconsidered nothing less than an upset.

[ILCT]

great assessment. when VDS was playing for juve i remember him being famous for his butter-fingers. i'm interested to see how he holds up playing behind a dutch D which at the best of times is terrible.

should be fun.

[forza_azzurri]

Very good question, I'd like to hear the answer to that :)

Barzagli and Chiellini have both played better than Canna since WC06. They haven't featured enough on the NT but they have more than proven themselves with their respective league teams.

Even Gamberini can fill that hole. Again...no NT experience but more than technically sound to do the job.

With Canna we lost our captain and nothing more.

Stop picturing Canna lifting that WC trophy. He has disappeared :rolleyes:

[Sempre]

Barzagli and Chiellini have both played better than Canna since WC06. They haven't featured enough on the NT but they have more than proven themselves with their respective league teams.

Even Gamberini can fill that hole. Again...no NT experience but more than technically sound to do the job.

With Canna we lost our captain and nothing more.

Stop picturing Canna lifting that WC trophy. He has disappeared :rolleyes:

That is such a load of bunk. Every Italy fan has feared the day that
Nesta and Cannavaro would no longer lead the line and it's here now.
You don't speak of replacing such legends with the likes of Chiellini
and Gamberini. The truth is that Italy will struggle to replicate their
partnership. For about 10 years -- roughly '96 to '06 -- they formed
a galaxy class partnership, and regardless of how Italy do at the Euro
a major challenge for the national team is rebuilding the central defense
for the future.

[AFCA]

The Dutch are always a threat and traditionally play a brand of offensive high-tempo football that makes the prospect of playing them an unnerving one.

Objectively though, this is currently a very mediocre generation of Dutch players and with the exception of Ruud (a world class European record holder) the comparison in quality to the Italian NT isn't even close.

The arsenal of forwards at Donadoni's disposal is overwhelming plus the flexibility he has in midfield between attacking and defending not to mention the quality he has at either fullback position is more than decent.

On top of all that Donadoni has the best GK in the world and although Van der saar has had an excellent season at club level he was working with an incredibly improved Man United defense whereas with the Dutch - I imagine he'll see many more shots on his goal.

Finally Italy are playing better as a team more than any other national side with the exception of Germany.

Ofcourse like its been said before anything can happen in football but if the Dutch were to walk away with three points it would have to beconsidered nothing less than an upset.

Sneijder, Robben, v Persie? Easily at the same level.

I think many of it depends on v Basten's choice. He has the option to reinforce the midfield by playing Heitinga and De Jong as DM, and a backline of Melchiot - Boulahrouz - Bouma - v Bronckhorst.

If v Basten chooses to play like this, I think we can sit back a bit and strike on the counter. That is a quality that this Dutch team has, contrary to many Dutch teams of the past.

I just worry that v Basten won't play like this, in which case we get an all or nothing scenario.

[dor02]

They've always played like that in my lifetime! I've seen Holland play Italy several times and it was always like that: Italy sitting back and being deadly in the counterattack. Which is perfectly fine: this isn't meant to be insulting Italian football or anything. You're masters of that style of play and should be proud of it. You've won loads more than the Dutch have, after all. And be happy that you do still have a specific style: most European football nations have no character or identity whatsoever these days.You shouldn't base your claims on how the Italians play against the Dutch. That would be like judging English clubs and how they play against Italian clubs in the CL and in recent times, the English have been playing more like a stereotypical Italian side than the Italians.

The only tornament in which the Azzurri have won a tornament by being defensive was at Euro 68 and that triumph required lots of luck. Only in the first half of the Euro 68 Final Replay did the Azzurri go on the attack. When Enzo Bearzot was coaching Italy, he encouraged his players to keep possession. I haven't seen the game aganst Holland from the 1978 WC so I don't know about his tactics for that particular game. Apparently the Azzurri players looked worn out towards the end of the tornament because they didn't have the fitness of teams that attacked on a regular basis throughout the year. Lippi's team during the last World Cup only went defensive in the games against Australia and the Final. Not only that, in those matches the Azzurri were on the attack in the first half.

Italian sides still have their own character. I'm not implying that they're playing a completely different style but the Azzurri can keep possession and there's more to Italian football than just tactics. Fans of calcio are proud of its success but for a neutral to think that it has all been down to just being effiecient and tactical, you are sadly mistaken.

[canzano55]

Sneijder, Robben, v Persie? Easily at the same level.
Well ultimately its all subjective but neutrally I only consider one of those players as world class - Robben. And even Robben is an undersized lightweight for his position and its been proven he can be physically intimidated provided he's handled accordingly.

Sneijder and Van Persie are very good players but they have proven very little at top level and whatever specific details that excuse their inconsistencies recently will likely not bear resolve against Italy.

The fact is Italy is by far the more talented side in practically every position and they play better as a team then Holland. I don't like making predictions but I think anything less then a 2-0 result for Italy over the Netherlands will be a surprise.

[johan neeskens]

Well ultimately its all subjective but neutrally I only consider one of those players as world class - Robben. And even Robben is an undersized lightweight for his position and its been proven he can be physically intimidated provided he's handled accordingly.

Sneijder and Van Persie are very good players but they have proven very little at top level and whatever specific details that excuse their inconsistencies recently will likely not bear resolve against Italy.

The fact is Italy is by far the more talented side in practically every position and they play better as a team then Holland. I don't like making predictions but I think anything less then a 2-0 result for Italy over the Netherlands will be a surprise.

Teehee I hope the Italian players feel the same way as then we can look forward to them underestimating the Dutch. Just a question: if Holland are that mediocre then why is this group labelled the group of death?

As for Sneijder, try to answer this question objectively. Would you say about a 25-year old Italian, who starts in midfield for Real Madrid, who has 40 international caps with his country, and who has played two major international tournaments with his country, reaching the second round of the world cup and the semifinals of the European championships, that he is unproven at the highest level?

Also: neutrally my arse.

[johan neeskens]

great assessment. when VDS was playing for juve i remember him being famous for his butter-fingers. i'm interested to see how he holds up playing behind a dutch D which at the best of times is terrible.

should be fun.

Yeh van der Sar rubbish keeper. I predict 6-0 to Italy.

[johan neeskens]

The Dutch are always a threat and traditionally play a brand of offensive high-tempo football that makes the prospect of playing them an unnerving one.

Objectively though, this is currently a very mediocre generation of Dutch players and with the exception of Ruud (a world class European record holder) the comparison in quality to the Italian NT isn't even close.

Now you've confused me. First the thought of Holland's attack is unnerving to you and Ruud is world class and then you go on to call us mediocre and an average generation of players? Are you just reassuring yourself then? Calming yourself down by telling yourself that the Dutch are rubbish?

[canzano55]

if Holland are that mediocre then why is this group labelled the group of death? Holland is a notorious side regardless of their quality. Always was and always will be.

As for Sneijder, try to answer this question objectively. Would you say about a 25-year old Italian, who starts in midfield for Real Madrid, who has 40 international caps with his country, and who has played two major international tournaments with his country, reaching the second round of the world cup and the semifinals of the European championships, that he is unproven at the highest level?

Real Madrid bought Sneijder because that was all that was available at the time. He's a versatile attacking midfielder who can use either feet and has a knack for scoring goals (sometimes) but overall he's a light player with little or no playmaking instincts.

Overall he's a player with a lot of potential but is currently to raw to win anything significant, the fact that V Basten was quoted saying he's better than Pirlo I find rather shocking. I still refuse to believe a former player of incredible stature such as V Basten said that.