Netherlands vs Italy - Monday 9th June [r]

[AFCA]

Cannavaro out is good news for us.

If Italy will be out on the offensive, this will be one crazy ass game I'll tell you that :D

[Kyryacos]

Extremely boring game this one will be. 0-0 with little or no chances.

[Amsteldam]

Interesting.

Even a month ago Italy-Holland looked like a boring game. The
Dutch were mired in that 4-3-3 and were not inspiring; and Italy
looked its solid and savvy self.

But the Dutch are on the upswing and with Cannavaro's absence
Italy cannot play its counter-attacking, cagey game; they just don't
have the backline to do so. It means Italy will have to attack and
suddenly I see this game being quite difficult to call. Group C is open.
I suppose that's the beauty of the Euro. You can hardly call it.
If I remember correctly Italy didnt play Catenaccio at WC06, so you you may be right, we'll see open, flowing football

[forza_azzurri]

Cannavaro out is good news for us.

If Italy will be out on the offensive, this will be one crazy ass game I'll tell you that :D

Sorry to burst your bubble but Cannavaro wasn't even ranked number 3 on defense for this squad.

He will be only missed for moral support which he will do on the sidelines.

[Campioni_2006]

My friend heard of Cannavaro's injury before I did and he asked me to guess who it was. My first three paniced guesses were Toni, Pirlo and Buffon. Loosing Cannavaro is a minor setback, but not a huge one.

[VCFan]

I agree that missing either one of Buffon, Pirlo, or Toni would be bigger losses (especially Pirlo) because the drop off in quality after them is significant. But Cannavaro was definitely our number one defender and he and Zambrotta are the only defenders that you could still call world class. Barzagli needs Cannavaro beside him to function in central defense. Unless Materazzi, Gamberini, Chiellini, or (god help us) Panucci have the tournaments of their lives, Italy's defense will be impacted dramatically.

That being said, all is not lost. Materazzi steps up when it counts and both Gamberini and Chiellini had great seasons for Fiorentina and Juventus respectively. There's no reason why we we can't place at least some faith in their abilities.

[Amsteldam]

Sorry to burst your bubble but Cannavaro wasn't even ranked number 3 on defense for this squad.
He will be only missed for moral support which he will do on the sidelines.
Huh????? Do you follow football at all????????
Canna was your captain and the best defender on Italy's squad!!
I cant put it any clearer then that.

But by all means correct me if I'm wrong and back it up with links, please.
Thank you ;)

[Sempre]

Huh????? Do you follow football at all????????
Canna was your captain and the best defender on Italy's squad!!
I cant put it any clearer then that.

But by all means correct me if I'm wrong and back it up with links, please.
Thank you ;)

You're right. Cannavaro is a massive player for Italy -- losing him is
a huge blow.

I honestly don't know if Italy will show at the Euro. Donadoni is not
the coach Lippi was and without our captain this is a weaker team
than that of two years ago.

Still, the ball is round and anything can happen. You can never forget
that almost all of Italy's players are extremely cultured -- these players
have been taught from day one that winning is everything and that sort
of mentality is key. It will be interesting to say the least.

[johan neeskens]

If I remember correctly Italy didnt play Catenaccio at WC06, so you you may be right, we'll see open, flowing football

It cracks me up that they claim to play 4-3-3. What I've seen of them over the past couple of years, even against the likes of Scotland, Toni is like a lonely man in the desert up front, it's clearly a 4-5-1 system. Which is difficult enough to play against as they're so good on the counter attack.

[Amsteldam]

You're right. Cannavaro is a massive player for Italy -- losing him is
a huge blow.

I honestly don't know if Italy will show at the Euro. Donadoni is not
the coach Lippi was and without our captain this is a weaker team
than that of two years ago.

Still, the ball is round and anything can happen. You can never forget
that almost all of Italy's players are extremely cultured -- these players
have been taught from day one that winning is everything and that sort
of mentality is key. It will be interesting to say the least.
One area Italy always impresses me is penalty kicks.
Go watch the WC06 PK's, I've never seen guys so focused and so methodical
when taking them.
They were zero'd in and werent gonna miss if their life depended on it.

Something a certain team in Orange could learn from.

[Khaloisha]

It cracks me up that they claim to play 4-3-3. What I've seen of them over the past couple of years, even against the likes of Scotland, Toni is like a lonely man in the desert up front, it's clearly a 4-5-1 system. Which is difficult enough to play against as they're so good on the counter attack.

It isn't a 4-3-3 but it is neither a 4-5-1. It's more a 4-3-2-1 with the 2 being forth and back based on situation. And Toni is never lonely, he always side with a one of two 2.

[johan neeskens]

It isn't a 4-3-3 but it is neither a 4-5-1. It's more a 4-3-2-1 with the 2 being forth and back based on situation. And Toni is never lonely, he always side with a one of two 2.

There was an analysis of Italian football on Dutch television on Monday night. They showed video footage of how Italy play, using the game v Scotland away as an example. The formation most definitely was a 4-5-1 then, whenever Italy weren't in possession at least. They kept nine men behind the ball at all times. What was also interesting to see is that the Italian defence seemed to have problems with the opponents full backs making runs forward - the Italians didn't know which man to 'pick'.

Look I'm not slagging off Italian football here, that's their style of play, always has been and probably always will be. God knows the Dutch find it difficult enough to play against.

[Khaloisha]

There was an analysis of Italian football on Dutch television on Monday night. They showed video footage of how Italy play, using the game v Scotland away as an example. The formation most definitely was a 4-5-1 then, whenever Italy weren't in possession at least. They kept nine men behind the ball at all times. What was also interesting to see is that the Italian defence seemed to have problems with the opponents full backs making runs forward - the Italians didn't know which man to 'pick'.

Look I'm not slagging off Italian football here, that's their style of play, always has been and probably always will be. God knows the Dutch find it difficult enough to play against.

The analysis about Italy came from one match? I doubt you saw the entire qualifications for EC 2008, which I do, and to say that we play 4-5-1 is incorrect. It's exactly what I said: the 2 in the 4-3-2-1 goes back (= behind the ball) while we're defendig. The same two goes up when we attack, in the middle of midfielding and attacking positions.

You have to take in account that vs Scotland we were playing to go or not in EC 2008: that's why we were a little bit defensivist.

Just to be clear: look at this video (Italy-Scotland-2-0)
At 1' when Toni gets fouled: see the two running up.
Look at our second goal, the movement of the two.

http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/x1kj6a_italia-vs-scozia-20_news

[johan neeskens]

The analysis about Italy came from one match? I doubt you saw the entire qualifications for EC 2008, which I do, and to say that we play 4-5-1 is incorrect. It's exactly what I said: the 2 in the 4-3-2-1 goes back (= behind the ball) while we're defendig. The same two goes up when we attack, in the middle of midfielding and attacking positions.

You have to take in account that vs Scotland we were playing to go or not in EC 2008: that's why we were a little bit defensivist.

Just to be clear: look at this video (Italy-Scotland-2-0)
At 1' when Toni gets fouled: see the two running up.
Look at our second goal, the movement of the two.

http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/x1kj6a_italia-vs-scozia-20_news

They do run up as soon as they gain possession - that's my point. How attacking a side is, from a Dutch football perspective at least, can most safely be judged on how a side position themselves when they don't have the ball.

[dor02]

There was an analysis of Italian football on Dutch television on Monday night. They showed video footage of how Italy play, using the game v Scotland away as an example. The formation most definitely was a 4-5-1 then, whenever Italy weren't in possession at least. They kept nine men behind the ball at all times. What was also interesting to see is that the Italian defence seemed to have problems with the opponents full backs making runs forward - the Italians didn't know which man to 'pick'.

Look I'm not slagging off Italian football here, that's their style of play, always has been and probably always will be. God knows the Dutch find it difficult enough to play against.Before the 50s, it wasn't and it hasn't been the style since the 80s. That would be like saying that the Dutch played Total Football from day one and we all know that's false.

What I find very sad is that the Dutch media would pick one game and use it as the basis of the Italian style during the present day. What's even worse is that nearly all of the Dutch posters on these boards since I've been on BS have very stereotypical views on calcio. I don't know of any political conflict between the two nations. It's an even greater shame that a guy like Cryuff still thinks Italians play like they did during his days as player.

You can't cherry-pick games to determine a style and that's what the Dutch media did on that show. Disappointing, really.

[AFCA]

Before the 50s, it wasn't and it hasn't been the style since the 80s. That would be like saying that the Dutch played Total Football from day one and we all know that's false.

What I find very sad is that the Dutch media would pick one game and use it as the basis of the Italian style during the present day. What's even worse is that nearly all of the Dutch posters on these boards since I've been on BS have very stereotypical views on calcio. I don't know of any political conflict between the two nations. It's an even greater shame that a guy like Cryuff still thinks Italians play like they did during his days as player.

You can't cherry-pick games to determine a style and that's what the Dutch media did on that show. Disappointing, really.

Because Dutch teams almost always are confronted with Italian teams that mostly wait.

It's the greatest quality in Italian football.

Italy could win the championship on 5 goal chances. Nothing wrong with that.

[johan neeskens]

Before the 50s, it wasn't and it hasn't been the style since the 80s. That would be like saying that the Dutch played Total Football from day one and we all know that's false.

What I find very sad is that the Dutch media would pick one game and use it as the basis of the Italian style during the present day. What's even worse is that nearly all of the Dutch posters on these boards since I've been on BS have very stereotypical views on calcio. I don't know of any political conflict between the two nations. It's an even greater shame that a guy like Cryuff still thinks Italians play like they did during his days as player.

You can't cherry-pick games to determine a style and that's what the Dutch media did on that show. Disappointing, really.

They've always played like that in my lifetime! I've seen Holland play Italy several times and it was always like that: Italy sitting back and being deadly in the counterattack. Which is perfectly fine: this isn't meant to be insulting Italian football or anything. You're masters of that style of play and should be proud of it. You've won loads more than the Dutch have, after all. And be happy that you do still have a specific style: most European football nations have no character or identity whatsoever these days.

[johan neeskens]

Because Dutch teams almost always are confronted with Italian teams that mostly wait.

It's the greatest quality in Italian football.

Italy could win the championship on 5 goal chances. Nothing wrong with that.

Exactly.

[Khaloisha]

They do run up as soon as they gain possession - that's my point. How attacking a side is, from a Dutch football perspective at least, can most safely be judged on how a side position themselves when they don't have the ball.

If you do play a scholastic 4-4-2 you can say how attacking a side is by seeing the positions when you don't have the ball. But we're talking about the top of football and those squared judge are irrelevant.
Do you see the first action i indicated to you? We were already in the possession, that's how we attack, we switch from a 2 attacking/midfielder to 2 attacker.
Anyway it's irrilevant how Dutch considers the scheme, I'm answering you about your doubt on our 4-3-3. And I can safely judge our scheme as it is, a 4-3-2-1.

[Khaloisha]

They've always played like that in my lifetime! I've seen Holland play Italy several times and it was always like that: Italy sitting back and being deadly in the counterattack. Which is perfectly fine: this isn't meant to be insulting Italian football or anything. You're masters of that style of play and should be proud of it. You've won loads more than the Dutch have, after all. And be happy that you do still have a specific style: most European football nations have no character or identity whatsoever these days.

As long as I'm italian, i saw every match about Italy, and that's why dor02 said that it's a stereotypical vision. If you haven't follow us through years you can't say for sure we used to play defensive, because, simply is not true.