The NUFC "not a big club" debate

[Russell1892]

I figured it was about time we had a debate on this since ex-players and managers seem to be popping up with the old "not a big club they've won nothing for ages" argument. Not to mention hacks up and down the land who think Newcastle fans "demand" to win something. 50,000 show up every week despite the fact we've won nowt since 1969. We don't really expect it to change any time soon either.

For me this argument doesn't hold much weight anyway. Are Boro a bigger club because they won the Carling Cup a few years back? Will Portsmouth or Cardiff become a bigger club when one of them wins the FA cup? More successful recently - yes, bigger? f*ck off.

Souness saying the expectations are unrealistically high was a kick in the nuts... we base our expectations on how much you spend. Souness spent big and delivered little... find me a club that wouldn't boot you out on your sorry Scottish arse when you took a 5th place team to 13th in 18 months blowing your way through £50m. He was the one with unrealistic expectations for expecting to keep his job.

Bramble uses the same argument. Maybe we would have won something if we hadn't had knackers like him playing for us. For an ex-player to gloat about how little we've won... seems like he should be ashamed of that, since he was actually part of the team for 5 years that won nowt.

We are the 14th richest club in Europe. Constant under-acheivers? Yes. Big club?

Thoughts please...

[Toon³]

Yup.

Close the thread.

[tigerdave]

I'm not really sure this is much of a debate amongst the regulars here. The only folks who might disagree are the ManUre and Sp*rs trolls. :D

[mplsTOON]

We had this discussion a while ago and in my commentary on it I proposed that there be a difference in the meaning between a Big Club and a Big Club™. The addition of a "™" after the words Big Club is defined when "Big Club" is used to describe clubs whose definition of success is based soley on success(es) on the pitch and profit margins.

These Big Clubs™ have the tendency to claim said status of being a "Big Club™" while simultaneously discounting teh shear size of other clubs who posses (for example) larger:

numbers of support,
financial returns on both official and knock off kit sales.
Ratio of of travelling support to distance travelled to away games
Greater per week wage bill outlay on players no matter the players worth or ability
Aggregate numbers of fat bald men who attend away games shirtless in January.


This defines the difference between a Big Club™ such as Man Utd or Chelsea, who while they do have huge support, most of it is due to the bandwagon effect of the natural human tendency to go with a winner ie: big, yet shallow, fairweather and sensible; and a Big Club such as NUFC whose support is also big, yet extremely rabid and slightly insane.

This in no way describes the terribly misguided ability the SMB's or Beasts seem to have when describing themselves; or even attempts to explain the farfetched notion,-er- idea that Sp*rs are a Big Club, with or without the "™"

[City Dave]

This should pretty much end the "what have you done for me lately" debate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-time_FA_Premier_League_table

The only thing that separates us from the big four is recent success in Europe and a few poor years.

There's this as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Coefficients#Club_coefficient

All those that say we're not a big club are just jealous haters or bandwagoners of the big four.

Not to mention that none of the above even considers our history before the '90s.

[Russell1892]

I suppose I'm just sick of the same old shite being spouted about Newcastle. How we "expect" to win things... we don't "expect" the top 4 do. We expect our team to be as competitive as is possible given our resources (show me a team's fans that don't expect that?) For us those 'resources' should point towards challenging the top four in my opinion. Or at least fighting it out in the top half of the table.

I'm also sick of this sniggering school-boy mentality towards any team that would like to challenge the top 4... it seems like some people think all other teams should content themselves with a decent cup run for the rest of their existence.

Does this mean I expect NUFC to be up challenging the top 4 next season? Not really (would be f*cking nice if it happened though :D).

Unfortunately with how far we've fallen behind I'm not sure how long it will take to get us back up where we feel we belong... any thoughts?


EDIT: As a side note regarding the SMB's chanting "you've never won f*ck all" at the weekend. Its hard to believe they are THAT stupid which leads me to conclude that one (possibly all) of these three options is true:

1) Yes they are perhaps even thicker than we thought they were?
2) They think winning the Championship is winning something?
3) Its still 1973 in Sunderland and they think they just won the cup? Or they consider that "recent"?

[Toon³]

Champions League next season and a cup.

[mplsTOON]

3) Its still 1973 in Sunderland and they think they just won the cup? Or they consider that "recent"?

They won something back in '73? Was it a "real" cup or one of those plastic ones with the fake marble facade and a polyester blue ribbon that is commonly given for being "Best in Show"?

[Toon³]

They won something back in '73? Was it a "real" cup or one of those plastic ones with the fake marble facade and a polyester blue ribbon that is commonly given for being "Best in Show"?

FA Cup against Leeds

[ToonUSA]

If we were to categorize the clubs in England (more specifically the Prem) this is how I'd rate them:

Big:
Man United
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Newcastle United
Everton

Medium:
West Ham United
Aston Villa
Spurs
Blackburn
Manchester City
Middlesbrough
Pompey

Small:
Bolton
Fulham
Wigan
Sunderland
Reading
Derby County

I was a little unsure of where to place West Ham but other than that I'm pretty confident.

[JaredSS07]

If we were to categorize the clubs in England (more specifically the Prem) this is how I'd rate them:

Big:
Man United
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Newcastle United
Everton

Medium:
West Ham United
Aston Villa
Spurs
Blackburn
Manchester City
Middlesbrough
Pompey

Small:
Bolton
Fulham
Wigan
Sunderland
Reading
Derby County

I was a little unsure of where to place West Ham but other than that I'm pretty confident.

Why is Everton in the big and Sp*rs in the Medium?

[tigerdave]

Why is Everton in the big and Sp*rs in the Medium?

Much as I hate to admit it, I'd flip-flop those two and maybe move Pompey down to the "small" category. Let's not forget Fratton Park only holds 20,000. And I'd almost consider S*nderland as a medium club just because they do have a little bit of money and they have a big stadium. But then I remember they're S*nderland.

[HoosierToon]

I'd consider Spurs a big club.........

[Toon³]

I'd consider Spurs a big club.........

Ban him!

[HoosierToon]

Ban him!

:) It's me......trackman20 with a new name!

Sorry...I was just agreeing with Jared above. Spurs are big if Everton is big.

[JaredSS07]

:) It's me......trackman20 with a new name!

Sorry...I was just agreeing with Jared above. Spurs are big if Everton is big.

Ban him anyway!

[Russell1892]

Not that it matters to the NUFC debate but I think both Spurs and Everton are middle clubs as they are both in the shadow of much bigger local rivals. They are Man City's and always will be :rolleyes:.

If Newcastle could extend the stadium all the way round (there are listed buildings behind the East Stand) so that we could fit 80,000 in - we'd still sell out. Its not just as they said in the film "GOAL" a one club city - the club has support across the entire (geographical) North of England from Durham to the Scottish border (missing out that shit-stain Sunderland).

Bobby Robson recently (well a few months ago) revealed that Alex Ferguson told him that NUFC were the one club that scared the sh*t out of the top 4... I wondered why Man Yoo felt the need to hammer us twice this season when against other teams they'd just stop trying after the 3rd... :rolleyes:

So do we think that under Ashley's running of the club we can lose the under-acheiver tag and become a power again? I know we say this every year but with the right dealings in the transfer market this summer (dead wood out, good players in) we can be up with Everton and Portsmouth putting pressure on the top 4. I suppose this is where we can finally judge Ashley's running of the club. He already seems like he cares more about the club than "life-long supporter" Shepherd.

[Russell1892]

Much as I hate to admit it, I'd flip-flop those two and maybe move Pompey down to the "small" category. Let's not forget Fratton Park only holds 20,000. And I'd almost consider S*nderland as a medium club just because they do have a little bit of money and they have a big stadium. But then I remember they're S*nderland.

Good point but if we're going mostly off stadium size... you also have to factor in how often they sell out. A lot of the premier league clubs never get close to selling out... and technically Boro and the Mackems tend to be 2 of them. Villa were one until they started playing well too :rolleyes:. Don't think I've ever seen the Reebok full either, and Wigan the list goes on and on.

The point is Portsmouth's stadium is a shit house but I bet they could sell out a 35,000 seater if they had one. Boro struggle to sell the seats they have.

[tigerdave]

Good point but if we're going mostly off stadium size... you also have to factor in how often they sell out. A lot of the premier league clubs never get close to selling out... and technically Boro and the Mackems tend to be 2 of them. Villa were one until they started playing well too :rolleyes:. Don't think I've ever seen the Reebok full either, and Wigan the list goes on and on.

The point is Portsmouth's stadium is a shit house but I bet they could sell out a 35,000 seater if they had one. Boro struggle to sell the seats they have.

Maybe you're right. I just always thought Pompey had a modest (albeit rabid) support base and not much more. But yeah, Pompey are def. bigger than Boro now that I actually sit and think about it.

[ToonUSA]

Why is Everton in the big and Sp*rs in the Medium?
They are probably equal to be fair. However, with us being bigger than Spurs they must be in the medium club department. Everton has great support home and away from what I've seen, Spurs have the numbers but noise whise I've heard they are crap.

Much as I hate to admit it, I'd flip-flop those two and maybe move Pompey down to the "small" category. Let's not forget Fratton Park only holds 20,000. And I'd almost consider S*nderland as a medium club just because they do have a little bit of money and they have a big stadium. But then I remember they're S*nderland.
Pompey has great away support to make up for their shitehole of a stadium only holding 20,000. Those 20,000 people make as much noise as 65,000 in Emirates do on any given Saturday. Not to mention they are sort of the Newcastle United of the south, granted less successful.