Die Löwen! TSV 1860 München Official Thread 07/08 part 2 [R]

[Lionhead]

With what money could 1860 have done this? We had to secure 1.5m in cash on hand AND balance the books AND meet our lines of credit AND save money for securing expiring contracts ALL before the DFB deadline for securing our license. We did all this by the skin of our teeth. We simply had ZERO cash to spend. Don't confuse being in the black as being able to afford to eat at Gordan Ramsay's. We are still on a McDonald's budget.

Balancing the books is an achievement, but success in this business means playing with the best. A low budget is not an excuse for failing to succeed.
Are we a club of bookkeepers or enterpreneurs?:(

[LoewenBoy]

Balancing the books is an achievement, but success in this business means playing with the best. A low budget is not an excuse for failing to succeed.
Are we a club of bookkeepers or enterpreneurs?:(
That is exactly what they were trying to build. You need capital AND a good name in order to secure venture capital. How can can a club be "entreprenuerial" without venture capital? 1860s finances were shit. Their name was shit. Their credit rating was shit. They could not afford a venti latte on credit without Ziffzer and Reuter.

Dude, you have some nice one-liners but you offer no substance. Tell me how 1860 could have done better? Seriously. All I hear is cute platitudes but nothing concrete. If there is no gas in the tank the car can't go....and you can't buy gas without credit or cash.

[Lionhead]

[QUOTE=russ99;14605059]That's where you and I differ. To me this was a disappointing season, but considering where we are now compared to 3 years ago it seems like the sun is finally peeking over the mountain. We're (barely) in the black, the Allianz mess is behind us and we're developing good young players.

Dont get me wrong, but you represent the fan who's happy when 1860 are not relegated and I dislike this attitude. Who gives a s... about talent that eventually ends up in the big money clubs.

Sheesh, if Schroth had been able to play, we'd all be congratulating ourselves over a solid upper-table finish...

If you really think that you're a dreamer. Schroth is a write off..

To throw it all away and start over (over something as stupid as averting relegation with an injury-laden roster) would be a tremendous waste, especially because it would be due to the ego of one guy and the misguided supporters group that backs him.

you are the one who's misguided because you're stuck in this "we're better off than 3 years ago". Do you remember what happened in the 1990ies?

[Lionhead]

That is exactly what they were trying to build. You need capital AND a good name in order to secure venture capital. How can can a club be "entreprenuerial" without venture capital? 1860s finances were shit. Their name was shit. Their credit rating was shit. They could not afford a venti latte on credit without Ziffzer and Reuter.

Dude, you have some nice one-liners but you offer no substance. Tell me how 1860 could have done better? Seriously. All I hear is cute platitudes but nothing concrete. If there is no gas in the tank the car can't go....and you can't buy gas without credit or cash.

You talk like a low level analyst. Credit rating and capital. what the ********! People make business successful.

[LoewenBoy]

are the one who's misguided because you're stuck in this "we're better off than 3 years ago". Do you remember what happened in the 1990ies?
To me this comment emboides EXACTLY what is wrong with Sechzig right now and this whole Pro-1860 gg. ARGE crap.

HOW DO WE BECOME SUCCESSFUL?

Lionhead, seriously, stop spouting the crap about the good old days and offer up a CONCRETE AND REALISTIC example of how 1860 could have done better this season OR can get better next season given our current situation. Who can take over for Ziffzer and be MORE successful? Von Linde? Wettberg? Where will the money come from if Trenkwalder leaves? What Bank will give us a line of credit with NO MONEY in the bank and no cash reserves? Is Von Linde or Wettberg going to give us operating cash out of their personal fortunes? You think we can buy REAL names like Koller or Lauth or Goerlitz or ANYONE?

I think you are seriously blinded by events or politics or happy hour. I am hoping its the latter.

[LoewenBoy]

You talk like a low level analyst. Credit rating and capital. what the ********! People make business successful.
WHAT PEOPLE!!!!???? Von Linde? Wettberg? Maget? PUUULLEEZZZZ.

If you think what I posted is the spoutings of a "low level analyst" than clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. You think people are the ONLY reason clubs are successful? Let's see how many sponsors AvL or Wettberg bring in. Let's see them balance our books, build a financial basis to make 1860 great again.

We DO agree that people make a business successful though...but its not the ONLY reason. Unfortunately, 1860 just let go they guy who was making THEM successful.

[russ99]

Dont get me wrong, but you represent the fan who's happy when 1860 are not relegated and I dislike this attitude. Who gives a s... about talent that eventually ends up in the big money clubs.

If you really think that you're a dreamer. Schroth is a write off..

you are the one who's misguided because you're stuck in this "we're better off than 3 years ago". Do you remember what happened in the 1990ies?

No, I'd be very happy if 1860 were promoted, but I'm realistic about our chances. In fact, if you look on this board, I was talking about promotion a lot in November and December. While this bad run has been a big disappointment, I see progress and if we have some club stability and a few shrewd signings, promotion would be even closer next season.

Schroth is now a write-off, but as you forget, he was to be healthy in the Rückrunde. I can't blame Reuter for expecting a normal course of treatment and recovery for our big acquisition this year, and also it's not his fault for 1860 not having the resources to get another similar player when it was clear Schroth had his setback in December and ended up useless... Also, it could have been worse as Bierofka played on an injured leg way more than anyone could expect.

No, I wasn't around for most of the 1990s but I saw the backlash of Wildmoser's spend-beyond-the-means mentality merging with the Kirch insolvency in the early 2000s. Honestly, that we're not in the RL now is a minor miracle...

[panicfc]

Bystander overhere. not competely innocent.

1860 seemed to be playing above their level early, and consolidation this season had to be the goal.

Ziffzer seemed to have a good clue as to how to build the club, but it wasn't, isn't, going to happen over night.

It all starts with the finances - get those in order and you have a chance at success. Without strong finances, you have no chance.

[footyfan1]

Bystander overhere. not competely innocent.

1860 seemed to be playing above their level early, and consolidation this season had to be the goal.

Ziffzer seemed to have a good clue as to how to build the club, but it wasn't, isn't, going to happen over night.

It all starts with the finances - get those in order and you have a chance at success. Without strong finances, you have no chance.


Totally agree. I thought Ziffzer and Reuter were doing a very good job bringing the club back.

It reminds of what happened with BVB and Bert van Marwijk.

He just missed the top five with guys like Nizamettin Caliksan, Mehmet Akgun, Salvatore Gambino, and a pre-2006 World Cup David Odonkor. But instead of acknowledging what a great job the man did, people stupidly got impatient when they did it again and started to draw the next season.

They fired him and things have been like shit that won't flush ever since.

1860, and some of the fans, in my opinion, are showing the same type of impatience. :(

[Lionhead]

Totally agree. I thought Ziffzer and Reuter were doing a very good job bringing the club back. I

Back where? You lost me there. Fact is that Ziffzer maintained that the present team does not need any reinforcements. How wrong can you be?
A revelation of incompetence...

Loewenboy, you made a point about Trenkwalder. You seem to have a short memory. Don't tell me you can't remember that our former sponsor FESTINA quit because of Ziffzer.

1860, and some of the fans, in my opinion, are showing the same type of impatience.

Fact is that 1860 is damned to achieve promotion within the next 2 years. It's a make or break situation where patience is something we can't afford.

By the way Ziegenbein transfer to Wehen is sealed.:(

[Lionhead]

Ziffzer was protecting Reuter from the Club politics within 1860. The fact that the 3 stooges who alluded to the possibility that Reuter's contract may not be extended. Did Ziffzer go overboard? A bit, perhaps. But the man is 100% spot on.


He's spot on with his bonus of 150k. Trenkwalder's money disappeared in Ziffzer's pockets (and Reuter's)

[LoewenBoy]

Back where? You lost me there. Fact is that Ziffzer maintained that the present team does not need any reinforcements. How wrong can you be?
A revelation of incompetence...
You serious? From where? From the brink of insolvency. From the brink of coming within a few DAYS of losing our license last spring. From the Wildmoser days of living larger than we can afford. He was the one who masterminded the aktien float which raised so much $$. He was the one who brought in Trenkwalder when the LAST administration signed that oh, so successful pact with Bwin...without checking local laws to see if they even COULD sign Bwin.

Now, Ziffzers comments about the team needing restrengthening were taken out of context. What he actually said was that we could not afford the right people we need (now) to properly engage in the promotional hunt. He never said we did not need any restrengthening.

Loewenboy, you made a point about Trenkwalder. You seem to have a short memory. Don't tell me you can't remember that our former sponsor FESTINA quit because of Ziffzer.
But why did Festina leave? Because Ziffzer said that 1860 is a business and needs to be run like one, and not like a "Renter Paradies" (Seniors Paradise) where money is handed out for no work. Festina was ALSO part of the old establishment and did not take kindly to the exact words Ziffzer used. Undiplomatic of him? Perhaps. Wrong? Not in my opinion and there was no long term damage to the club. Remember, Festina was looking to renegotiate their agreement with 1860 ANYWAY. I think they were looking for a reason to get out of the contract and used Ziffzers comments as a scapegoat.

Odd that NO ONE complained about Festina being "heavy handed" in 1860s affairs like some are about Trenkwalder now.:rolleyes:

Fact is that 1860 is damned to achieve promotion within the next 2 years. It's a make or break situation where patience is something we can't afford.
Huh? Why? Why is it "make or break"? Because some fans are tired of playing 2BL ball? Exactly HOW are we supposed to MAKE it to the 1BL without $$$ and financial stability? Had we made it up this year we would have gone right back down. I am in no hurry as long as I see progress....which I have seen. Case in point:

Our books are solid and transactions transparent. This means that the DFL has confidence in our accounting and the fog of Wildmoser and the stain he left on 1860 is subsiding.
We are starting to think forward and retain those young players we think will help us. Sadly, we do not have the money nor the luxury of keeping ALL the players. Ziegenbein case in point, but then again, don't think Kurz liked him much because he hardly broke the first team this year at all.
We are out of the Allianz debacle. Sure we still have to rent it from Bayern and do not have our own stadium, but that is a marathon issue, not a short sprint. One day we might get our own grounds again...one day.
Attendance figures, despite form, are still up. Good for revenue.
We have, for the moment, a solid main sponsor who wants to work with us. We have, for now, solid stable of secondary sponsors as well.
Our youth program is recognized as one of the top in all of Germany.
Our coach and club administrator have decent contacts in the sport and are trying to secure free, experienced players who can help us achieve our long-term goal: promotion and STAYING in teh 1BL.All of this was done in less than 24 months and courtesy of Ziffzer, Reuter and Kurz. That is, all except the youth program; that has been top caliber for a while.

What have the Three Stooges done? Why is membership declining AGAIN for the SIXTH straight year? the TSV Herrn should look inside their OWN house before looking to clean elsewhere which does not need cleaning.

By the way Ziegenbein transfer to Wehen is sealed.:(
Sad to see but not unexpected. I wish him well. Transfermarkt report here (http://www.transfermarkt.de/de/news/20658/2007/news/anzeigen.html).

[LoewenBoy]

He's spot on with his bonus of 150k. Trenkwalder's money disappeared in Ziffzer's pockets (and Reuter's)
Huh??? Look at the 1860 financial report. All of the money is accounted for. This is just anti-Ziffzer speculation.

Exactly why don't you like the guy? Clearly you have an axe to grind.

[Lionhead]

Huh??? Look at the 1860 financial report. All of the money is accounted for. This is just anti-Ziffzer speculation.

Exactly why don't you like the guy? Clearly you have an axe to grind.

For starters he negotiated the rental for Allianz Arena which will remain to drain our funds. It's like a hole in the bucket.

The sponsorship is between Trenkwalder and 1860. It's was never a "personal" matter between Trenkwalder and Ziffzer. The man is lethal. He had to go.
Just wait and see. You will agree with me in the near future.

[LoewenBoy]

For starters he negotiated the rental for Allianz Arena which will remain to drain our funds. It's like a hole in the bucket.

With all due respect: WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM????

The Banks had us by the gonads because we owed MILLIONS each year to service the loans we were paying for our 50% stake in the Arena. We had a 25+ year contract. We were mortgaged to our firggin' eyeballs and could not afford to make the miniumum payments on the loans. In short, we were ********ED!!! Did I mention this was BEFORE Ziffzer came on board?

Ziffzer comes in, meets with the Banks and says "we are a small club, have no cash, zero in flow and cannot meet oru obligations." The banks say, "find someone who can help you, we will work with them. All we care about is getting our loans paid on time." Ziffzer went to Bayern and, regardless of what one may think of their motives, they agree to TAKE OVER our loan payments for the Arena in exchange for our 50% stake. Oh yeah, there was a buy-back option (plus interest) Bayern gave us if we wanted. The only thing we owed ANYONE was to rent the Arena for our games.

This action of Ziffzer you see as a drain? We pack an average of 30,000 people in during each home game. Where did you think we were going to play? Gruenwald? PLEASE don't tell me you are one of those people who HONESTLY believe we can play in Gruenwald the way it is now. PLEASE tell me you are more realistic than that!! If we left Allianz and went to Gruenwald, do you realize how much revenue we would give up? Do you???

I remember the good old days. Hell, I relive them in my mind every day. But I am realistic enough to know that 1860 will NEVER play a single 2BL or 1BL match in Gruenwald so long as it remains as it is today.

Blame Ziffzer if you want, but it only shows you are talking with your emotions and living in a fantasy world rather than living in reality.

The sponsorship is between Trenkwalder and 1860. It's was never a "personal" matter between Trenkwalder and Ziffzer. The man is lethal. He had to go.
Hello? Did you listen to the Trenkwalder PK? Even THEY said if not for Ziffzer and Reuter they would have NEVER entertained the thought of coming to 1860.

Just wait and see. You will agree with me in the near future.
Not bloody likely. You have given ZERO content to your argument. Only irrational, emotional hyperbole.

[russ99]

For starters he negotiated the rental for Allianz Arena which will remain to drain our funds. It's like a hole in the bucket.


You prefer a slightly higher gate percentage from an attendance of 8,000 at Grünwalder Stadion? That's not going to get us to any kind of financial security...

The best part of Allianz deal is that if more fans go to the games, 1860 makes more money. Also, it's a lease, which is better for the balance sheet than a loan and also can be re-negotiated or broken, and not the ironclad ownership agreement we had previously that almost led to our insolvency.

We're a renter now. If there are any shortfalls, unexpected interest increases or expenses in operating Allianz (your proverbial hole in the bucket), that's all Bayern's problem.

[Lionhead]

With all due respect: WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM????

I'm from planet reality while you seem to stuck on planet Ziffzer....


This action of Ziffzer you see as a drain? We pack an average of 30,000 people in during each home game. Where did you think we were going to play? Gruenwald? PLEASE don't tell me you are one of those people who HONESTLY believe we can play in Gruenwald the way it is now. PLEASE tell me you are more realistic than that!! If we left Allianz and went to Gruenwald, do you realize how much revenue we would give up? Do you???

Ziffzer patched up some holes, but he's never been good in initiating new ventures and new revenue. I used to be a pro Grünwalder, but not anymore. On the other hand our gates have gone down considerably with our bad run. If it continues we'll hear those voices from the past inevitably. Who wants to watch a mediocre team losing at home in AA?

[LoewenBoy]

I'm from planet reality while you seem to stuck on planet Ziffzer....
LOL, well until you actually give some concrete reasons as to why he's bad I guess I will have to be.

Ziffzer patched up some holes, but he's never been good in initiating new ventures and new revenue.
What new ventures would you have him create? Face it, NO ONE wants to do business with 1860 because of our shoddy dealings in the past. Why? For the VERY way and manner in which AvL and Wettberg got rid of Ziffzer....this behind the back, palace intrigue, prima donna way that the Praesidium acts. Thank you for proving my point. NO business in their right mind would give ANY money to a club who does not have sound financial grounding or business practices. Wake up and face reality, 1860's reputation sucks from a financial perspective. Banks don't trust us, businesses don't trust us. Hell, our own fan clubs argue like old women with hair driers on their heads at EVERY DAMN MEETING over NOTHING!!!!

On the other hand our gates have gone down considerably with our bad run. If it continues we'll hear those voices from the past inevitably. Who wants to watch a mediocre team losing at home in AA?
Well no you have really illustrated how much you don't know. Gone down? Really? Last season we averaged 35,276 a game. This year we averaged 35,070 a game. Wow 206 people different. I attribute that to 1) some crappy teams in the hinrunde, 2) club politics, and 3) yes, in part the crappy form. But there is now way you can equate this season's performance with poor attendance.

Actually take a look at our attendance stats for this year and compare to our table rank. You will see LITTLE fluctuation in attendance based on table position. There is more fluctuation based on WHO we play than on where we were in the table.

http://www.mozartbrau.com/attendance.gif

Lionhead I can appreciate your passion for the club, but you are WAY, WAY to blind and emotional about this. Your arguments are from your heart but have nothing to back them up. You still have not said WHY you hate Ziffzer. He has done more good for the club than AvL or Wettberg or any of the other clowns have done....and that is an unbiased view from someone who has just listed his accomplishments.

[russ99]

Anyone else notice that on the 1860 site that Reuter took on Ziffzer's position as Geschäftsführer of the KGaA to add to his already considerable responsibilities...

He's certainly giving a heck of an effort to the well being of the club. I just hope they don't stab him in the back for it.

Or is this just a "smoothing over" move by the Presidency?

[LoewenBoy]

Anyone else notice that on the 1860 site that Reuter took on Ziffzer's position as Geschäftsführer of the KGaA to add to his already considerable responsibilities...

He's certainly giving a heck of an effort to the well being of the club. I just hope they don't stab him in the back for it.

Or is this just a "smoothing over" move by the Presidency?
He was always Geschäftsführer; whereas Ziffzer was Geschäftsführer and Vorstandsitzer. Rumor is Stevic is being asked to take the Vorstandsitzer position.:D