Die Löwen! TSV 1860 München Official Thread 07/08 part 2 [R]

[LoewenBoy]

Here are the last 4 games' formations. The positions in blue are the ones Kurz has kept juggling. IMHO he is missing the point and focusing on the wing backs too much. I think we have four key problems:

Central defense is not marking. When Torben and Berhalter were in there we won head balls but lost on speed. With Szukala and Thorandt in there we win on speed but lose headers and man-marking. IMHO Kurz should split the difference and should have put Thorandt and Torben in the middle.
Wing defense has been suspect all year, especially the outside right. Johnson can play the position, as can Benny Schwarz can play the outside left. Kurz blew it IMHO by not keeping those two kids in those roles for all 4 games. They certainly are no worse than anyone else who has played them this season AND they add two things: 1) speed, and 2) they can flank well and STILL get back.
Developing attack from the back has sucked since November. Ledgerwood was showing some nice signs of doing this at BMG. Why move the kid to wing defense? Just be cause the Canadian coach plays him there? The kid is a good holder of the ball and has excellent vision. Oh, did I mention he can dribble?
Outside right mid has been an issue. Wolff can play it, so can Ziegenbein. I would have had a meeting with Ziegenbein before BMG and said: "Your contract is up this season. Play the next four games like you life depends on it and we will talk.!" But this in-again-out-again mentality in this position confuses the players.I think if Kurz had focused on sticking with a good formula he would have taken more points in some of those games. He just seemed to be mixing too much and reacting to things. Wonder if he was getting pressure from von Linde to play or not play certain players.:rolleyes:

1-1 gg. Osnabrueck
Tschauner
Ledgerwood, Thorandt, Szukala, T. Hoffmann
D. Schwarz, L. Bender
Wolff, Göktan, Bierofka
di Salvo

1-3 gg. Paderborn
Tschauner
Johnson (5), Thorandt (5), Szukala (4), T. Hoffmann (4,5)
D. Schwarz (4), Ledgerwood (5)
Ziegenbein (5), Göktan (4,5), Bierofka (3)
di Salvo (5)

0-3 gg. SCF
Tschauner (3)
Johnson (4), Thorandt (4,5), Szukala (4,5), B. Schwarz (4)
D. Schwarz (4,5), L. Bender (5)
Ziegenbein (4), Göktan (4,5), Bierofka (5)
di Salvo (5,5)

2-2 gg BMG
Tschauner (3)
Johnson (4), Thorandt (4), Szukala (3), B. Schwarz (3)
D. Schwarz (3,5), Ledgerwood (4)
Wolff (3), Göktan (3,5), Bierofka (2,5)
di Salvo (3)

[russ99]

I completely get what you both are saying. It is a marathon, not a sprint. Sechzig have shown they can play well in spurts, but to string it together for a complete term, let alone a couple of terms, remains to be seen.

I too would rather they work hard for a longer stay in 1.BL and not just a flash in the pan kind of stay up there...

Agreed, but harder work alone isn't going to get us there.

We need to hold onto our solid young players and then add talent, not just broken down ex-1860 players and seatwarmers to the club on the free-signings and transfer market.

Having said that, it's a lot more easier said than done with our club's budget...

If 1860 can build their overall talent level, promotion is a possibility anyway.

To attain the overall goal of becoming a mid-level Bundesliga club is a possibility in the next 5 years, but a re-relegation after one season back up would be a disaster and put us back into a similar place we were 3 years ago.

[footyfan1]

Footy, change your mind on that after this week? :D

YES!

[footyfan1]

Ziffzer's axing isn't that much of a surprise. He always knew the absolute worst time to say something in the press.

Hopefully that's the end of the firings. They'd be foolish to axe Reuter or Kurz. But, I'd expect both to be on a bit of a shorter leash next season.

Dude, according to the press Reuter is thinking about walking. He will indeed finish the season, but did not say he would definitely stay on.

I think the Ziffzer firing is dead wrong. These guys were building something here. To me, it stinks of impatience and political in-fighting.

A president firing someone doing a good job simply because he doesn't like him.

Also it smells of the kind of impatience that got 1860 where it is in the first place. :mad:

I might be wrong, but that's what I feel about it.......

[LoewenBoy]

Dude, according to the press Reuter is thinking about walking. He will indeed finish the season, but did not say he would definitely stay on.

I think the Ziffzer firing is dead wrong. These guys were building something here. To me, it stinks of impatience and political in-fighting.

A president firing someone doing a good job simply because he doesn't like him.

Also it smells of the kind of impatience that got 1860 where it is in the first place. :mad:

I might be wrong, but that's what I feel about it.......
Spot on....is what I am hearing too. Now Reuter does have a contract but I imagine he would negotiate a walking clause knowing how smart he is. If 1860 loses Reuter we are RL bound within 2 years. Mark my words.

[LoewenBoy]

We did this 4 years ago and had a blast. Go to http://www.euro2008.uefa.com/index.html (http://www.euro2008.uefa.com/index.html)
and click on Fan Zone to register, pick your team and join the "Euro Snobs" league — Code to join this league: 52291-7289.

[footyfan1]

Spot on....is what I am hearing too. Now Reuter does have a contract but I imagine he would negotiate a walking clause knowing how smart he is. If 1860 loses Reuter we are RL bound within 2 years. Mark my words.


I agree with that. And being "selfish", what pi$$es me off even more is that the dummies running my club will be too stupid to make him an offer to return "home."

[LoewenBoy]

It has been alluded to in this thread before, but here is the latest chapter

Zoff bei den Löwen

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/zweiteliga/artikel/589/174070/
And the retorts continue. Von Linde, upon firing Ziffzer said, "He has forgotten who is chef and who is the waiter." Ziffzer's retort? "What should the waiter do if the chef cannot cook?"

Sounds better auf Deutsch: "Was macht der Kellner aber, wenn der Koch nicht kochen kann?" :D

Priceless!!!! Von Linde is a slow-thinking man playing a fast-thinking man's game.

[footyfan1]

And the retorts continue. Von Linde, upon firing Ziffzer said, "He has forgotten who is chef and who is the waiter." Ziffzer's retort? "What should the waiter do if the chef cannot cook?"

Sounds better auf Deutsch: "Was macht der Kellner aber, wenn der Koch nicht kochen kann?" :D

Priceless!!!! Von Linde is a slow-thinking man playing a fast-thinking man's game.


I read it and was laughing my head off. If von Linde is stupid enough not to keep Reuter around, he'd better hire the best football man he can find and simply stay out of the way.

Or 1860 is in real freakin' trouble.....

[footyfan1]

Dude, Vice President Wettberg and Ziffzer are face to face on DSF right now. I just walked in on it and am not catching a lot, but Ziffzer seems to believe that with him and Reuter, the investors they got will walk too.

If I heard right, Trenkwalder sent a fax saying that with the shame the board (President, etc) has brought onto the club with this action, they either won't be renewing their business deal or they are pulling their sponsorship altogether.

I might be wrong. I was just walking in when that part came on.

I wish you guys could see this!

[goindownsouth]

I do not think this is the direction the club really wanted to go... is it?

Sakes.

[panicfc]

Dude, Vice President Wettberg and Ziffzer are face to face on DSF right now. I just walked in on it and am not catching a lot, but Ziffzer seems to believe that with him and Reuter, the investors they got will walk too.

If I heard right, Trenkwalder sent a fax saying that with the shame the board (President, etc) has brought onto the club with this action, they either won't be renewing their business deal or they are pulling their sponsorship altogether.

I might be wrong. I was just walking in when that part came on.

I wish you guys could see this!

High COMEDY!!!

Give us more Play by play

[footyfan1]

High COMEDY!!!

Give us more Play by play

They started to go at each other near the end. It seemed to me the bottom line is that Ziffzer thinks the board is leading the club down the road to ruin and the board (read: VP/President) thinks the investors will stay on because they believe in 1860.

Most of the fans, press, etc. seem to be on Ziffzer's side. Ziffzer also made it clear that he and Reuter were a good team and while he didn't say it, it was apparent Ziffzer doesn't think Reuter will stay on at 1860 after the season.

[LoewenBoy]

They started to go at each other near the end. It seemed to me the bottom line is that Ziffzer thinks the board is leading the club down the road to ruin and the board (read: VP/President) thinks the investors will stay on because they believe in 1860.

Most of the fans, press, etc. seem to be on Ziffzer's side. Ziffzer also made it clear that he and Reuter were a good team and while he didn't say it, it was apparent Ziffzer doesn't think Reuter will stay on at 1860 after the season.
The problem with 1860 stems from the fact that the Club (meaning" the actual membership and members of the club) is hotly contested among various fan factions. It is a very Balkanized organization. There is no real single powerbase. Von Linde and one of the VPs is part of one faction, whereas the other VP is from the other main faction. To have peace they formed a Triumvirate to share power but with clearly two of the three power positions going to the stronger of the two factions. This is why von Linde had to get the support of the other two before he could really fire Ziffzer. So, to use von Linde's cooks analogy: There are three chefs int he kitchen, not just one head chef.

The biggest issue is that Ziffzer and Reuter formed a seperate business entity last year which governed the business side of 1860, whereas the Triumvirate governed over the club in general. The Ziffzer/Reuter formation was done so as to have some atonomy from those idiots. Ziffzer may, in fact, be right in that the KGaA which he and Reuter formed my not come under the same scrutiny as the TSV. If so, then if Reuter does leave the TSV would take over the KGaA and my guess is we would have another Wildmoser Era on our hands.

I tell you, its a dark day in Loewenland.

Side Rumor: Micki Stevic is reported in the AZ as being the replacement to Ziffzer.:D

[russ99]

The problem with 1860 stems from the fact that the Club (meaning" the actual membership and members of the club) is hotly contested among various fan factions. It is a very Balkanized organization. There is no real single powerbase. Von Linde and one of the VPs is part of one faction, whereas the other VP is from the other main faction. To have peace they formed a Triumvirate to share power but with clearly two of the three power positions going to the stronger of the two factions. This is why von Linde had to get the support of the other two before he could really fire Ziffzer. So, to use von Linde's cooks analogy: There are three chefs int he kitchen, not just one head chef.

The biggest issue is that Ziffzer and Reuter formed a seperate business entity last year which governed the business side of 1860, whereas the Triumvirate governed over the club in general. The Ziffzer/Reuter formation was done so as to have some atonomy from those idiots. Ziffzer may, in fact, be right in that the KGaA which he and Reuter formed my not come under the same scrutiny as the TSV. If so, then if Reuter does leave the TSV would take over the KGaA and my guess is we would have another Wildmoser Era on our hands.

I tell you, its a dark day in Loewenland.

Side Rumor: Micki Stevic is reported in the AZ as being the replacement to Ziffzer.:D

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the President/Vice President offices voted on by the membership each year?

Sure there's the issue with the member factions, but if a pinhead like Von Linde tries to rip the club apart mostly due to his own ridiculous ego, wouldn't he and his cronies get voted out the next election (in late August or early September as I recall)?

Also, while Reuter can't be pleased with what's going down, I doubt he'd give up his job due to a knucklehead president that will be gone by the time we start playing meaningful football next season.

Even though I came into 1860 fandom halfway through his regime, IMO the only thing Wildmoser had going for him was his cash and willingness to spend it on the club. Why the hell would we want a fake nobleman Wildmoser-like figure in power for the forseeable future? Especially one who's either broke or won't spend his cash?

[footyfan1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the President/Vice President offices voted on by the membership each year?

Sure there's the issue with the member factions, but if a pinhead like Von Linde tries to rip the club apart mostly due to his own ridiculous ego, wouldn't he and his cronies get voted out the next election (in late August or early September as I recall)?

Also, while Reuter can't be pleased with what's going down, I doubt he'd give up his job due to a knucklehead president that will be gone by the time we start playing meaningful football next season.

Even though I came into 1860 fandom halfway through his regime, IMO the only thing Wildmoser had going for him was his cash and willingness to spend it on the club. Why the hell would we want a fake nobleman Wildmoser-like figure in power for the forseeable future? Especially one who's either broke or won't spend his cash?

Simply because you don't have much of a choice.......

[LoewenBoy]

When we last left Herr von Linde he was reminding us "Who is chef and who is waiter" after having let go Herr Doctor Ziffzer for saying that von Linde was the head of a stinky fish.

Now enter 1860s main sponsor Trenkwalder (http://www.eyep-tv.de/images/stories/1860/2008_05_13_trenkwalder.pdf). Ironically for von Linde, Trenkwalder is a workplacement firm for out of work people. I am sure to Herr von Linde's surprise, they are not simply sitting on the side lines and letting his version of Kabuki Fussball Theatre continue unabated. Trenkwalder has sent 1860 a very well crafted note (link above in German) which basically says:

Any trouble at 1860 reflects upon them as sponsors.
That the relationship between Trenkwalder and 1860 was forged (and is based) upon relationships with the aforementioned Ziffzer and Herr Reuter.
That 1860 (meaning the Three Stooges Presidents) must conduct themselves with trust and decorum at ALL times.
Trenkwalder submitted a list of financial questions they, for the most part, demanded be answered by 1860.
Lastly, and this is the fun part, want von Linde to explain his remarks in the Abendzeitung where he sais: "There are contracts with the sponsors. So far I know, the contract does not allow the sponsors the right to unilaterally dissolve the contract. And secondly the contracts do not hang also on a certain person".Trenkwalder, as a worker's rights group, knows how to play this game VERY well. The 1860 Prasidium is so far out of their element here it has to be obvious even to them. They have given 1860 until 8am on the 19th to respond to this open letter. If they don't I expect Trenkwalder to make a very obvious depature from 1860. Oh, and don't expect anyone else to line up fast either.

If we lose the sponsor money don't expect 1860 to retain their license.:mad:

[footyfan1]

When we last left Herr von Linde he was reminding us "Who is chef and who is waiter" after having let go Herr Doctor Ziffzer for saying that von Linde was the head of a stinky fish.

Now enter 1860s main sponsor Trenkwalder (http://www.eyep-tv.de/images/stories/1860/2008_05_13_trenkwalder.pdf). Ironically for von Linde, Trenkwalder is a workplacement firm for out of work people. I am sure to Herr von Linde's surprise, they are not simply sitting on the side lines and letting his version of Kabuki Fussball Theatre continue unabated. Trenkwalder has sent 1860 a very well crafted note (link above in German) which basically says:

Any trouble at 1860 reflects upon them as sponsors.
That the relationship between Trenkwalder and 1860 was forged (and is based) upon relationships with the aforementioned Ziffzer and Herr Reuter.
That 1860 (meaning the Three Stooges Presidents) must conduct themselves with trust and decorum at ALL times.
Trenkwalder submitted a list of financial questions they, for the most part, demanded be answered by 1860.
Lastly, and this is the fun part, want von Linde to explain his remarks in the Abendzeitung where he sais: "There are contracts with the sponsors. So far I know, the contract does not allow the sponsors the right to unilaterally dissolve the contract. And secondly the contracts do not hang also on a certain person".Trenkwalder, as a worker's rights group, knows how to play this game VERY well. The 1860 Prasidium is so far out of their element here it has to be obvious even to them. They have given 1860 until 8am on the 19th to respond to this open letter. If they don't I expect Trenkwalder to make a very obvious depature from 1860. Oh, and don't expect anyone else to line up fast either.

If we lose the sponsor money don't expect 1860 to retain their license.:mad:


Thanks man. That's what I didn't interpret properly. I wish you could have seen Wettberg and Ziffzer on DSF.

You could just see that Wettberg was unarmed in that battle of wits. Ziffzer was cool as a cucumber, but you could see his concern was for the club and the work he and Reuter were doing, not for himself.

I hope someone comes to their senses and soon. :o

Oh and I expect if the sponsors walk you are right on. The license would be revoked. However, I would hope that if it does happen, the league would let 1860 keep the license for next season and saddle them with a huge point deduction.

I'm certain whomever loses out in the relegation battle between Offenbach, Osnabrueck and Kaiserslautern will be watching this situation very closely.

[LoewenBoy]

Thanks man. That's what I didn't interpret properly. I wish you could have seen Wettberg and Ziffzer on DSF.
http://www.mozartbrau.com/stooges.gif

[Lionhead]

Spot on....is what I am hearing too. Now Reuter does have a contract but I imagine he would negotiate a walking clause knowing how smart he is. If 1860 loses Reuter we are RL bound within 2 years. Mark my words.

I strongly disagree. He almost did it this year (relegation) with him being unable to strengthen the team when it was a MUST. With di salvo and goektan out for months he did not act on the emergency on hand. Did he not realise that there was nobody left to score the goals? He and Zipfel were always hiding behind their figures instead of trying to get some cash injection exploring some innovative ways (fundraising). I'm sick to the core of these voices demanding patience and telling us to keep nourishing new talent. This is the way to manage an amateur club, but not a club like 1860. I don't give a s*** if they get some oldies from BL1 as long as there is hope to get near the top 3 in BL2. What's the point in having these hopeful talents when nobody wants to watch them and you have to sell them for small change in the near future? Consolidation is good, but it can't last forever. Chuck out Reuter and Kurz (should be sacked after this shocking losing streak)and start with a new management team. If we didn't have the lucky break (2:1) in Kaiserslautern we'd be staring in the face of relegation right now. Please don't give me that Reuter bulls....:mad: