Feinting during the taking of a PK

[kevbrunton]

I have had this argument a time or two with local referees and someone posted on the other PK thread going on that the Luis Figo penalty kick shown on FSW Report Monday evening was illegal because he made several stutter steps on his way to the ball.

THIS IS LEGAL FOLKS. We need to get the word out. It has been legal since 2001 -- by IFAB decision.

Here is the USSF Position paper on it.

http://www.ussoccer.com/templates/includes/services/referees/pdfs/position_papers/feinting.pdf

[Statesman]

For game management purposes, a note on the last paragraph. If you deem the kicker deserving a caution but unable to stop before the kick is taken and play continues, LET HIM KNOW he is going in the book then and there, and make sure you remember his number. It is very very difficult to sell a card in this instance at the next stoppage so it is best to be as clear as possible. I'd even publicly make the statement, "#15 you're in the book!" so there is no doubt.

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by Statesman
For game management purposes, a note on the last paragraph. If you deem the kicker deserving a caution but unable to stop before the kick is taken and play continues, LET HIM KNOW he is going in the book then and there If a penalty kick is saved or missed completely, is it really worth going back and cautioning the player? His deceit failed, that seems punishment enough to me. I don't think you can get anything out of a caution at that point, except some confusion and possibily angering an already frustrated player.

[Statesman]

MassRef I don't make the rulings or interpretations so I can't answer your question in it's current form. As a referee we can only know when we see it. My post is directed towards the directive by USSF quoted here:
However, in situations where the manner of taking the kick is deemed unsporting but thereferee is unable to stop play before the kick occurs, the referee must follow Law 14 by allowing the kick to proceed. If the ball goes into the goal, the penalty kick is retaken after cautioning the kicker for unsporting behavior. If the ball does not enter the goal, play continues and the kicker should be cautioned at the next stoppage of play.

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by Statesman
MassRef I don't make the rulings or interpretations so I can't answer your question in it's current form. As a referee we can only know when we see it. My post is directed towards the directive by USSF quoted here: I know what you're saying, Stateman. I know that if we decide that deceit occurred, we must go back and caution for that deceit. I wasn't trying to suggest we ignore a USSF directive. A better way to phrase my question would be: 'did deceit actually occur if it was unsuccessful?'

As referees, we're the only ones that know if we've decided that the manner of the kick is worth cautioning for deceit. No one else knows that internal decision we make at that split second. You suggested that we verbalize our decision to caution after the taking of the penalty. I just don't think that's such a good idea because it ties our hands and forces us to follow through on the next stoppage. I think it's better to see the result of the PK, and then make our decision. To me, cautioning a player for deceit after he misses a PK is absolutely no different from cautioning a player for encroaching on a free kick after the free kick goes in for a goal. We would never think of doing the latter, so why should we entertain the former?

Ultimately, I just don't see the worth in cautioning a player after a failed PK. We're told time and time again by instructors and assessors that we have to 'get something' for our cautions. I just can't imagine ever getting anything out of cautioning a kicker who fails an PK attempt. I'd imagine that in almost every single case, the caution would be counterproductive. I agree with you and any others who suggest it that we'd be technically correct if we chose to do so, I just don't see the worth for game management or any consistency with the 'Spirit' of the Laws.

[Statesman]

I certainly follow and agree with your logic MassRef. There was only one incident I've had where the kicker received a caution at the next stoppage. As he was running towards the ball, he yelled out "Dive left, dumbass!" at the keeper. The shot was tipped by the keeper and a teammate cleared it, so I told the kicker he was in the book. His unsporting behavior did not make the kick successful but still needed to be dealt with.

So, as the old saying goes, it all depends on the situation. Chances are the referee will never encounter a situation where deception warranting a caution should be dealt with at the next stoppage, primarily because the majority of incidents fitting this description are counter-intuitive. However, should the referee indeed encounter one of these situations, as I did, it would be in his best interest to inform everybody of the upcoming caution to cut down on dissent.

[Alberto]

I agree. Hold the card in your pocket if the play results in no goal. No advantage was realized. What has always intrigued me are examples of deceit. Can someone give me an example? I can think of a situation where a player kicks the ball before it being whistled ready for play by the referee. What other deceit could occur during a penalty kick? Talking to the keeper or yelling like a wildman. Since you can feint during your approach I can't think of anything else a player could do. Your thoughts.

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by Alberto
I agree. Hold the card in your pocket if the play results in no goal. No advantage was realized. What has always intrigued me are examples of deceit. Can someone give me an example? I can think of a situation where a player kicks the ball before it being whistled ready for play by the referee. What other deceit could occur during a penalty kick? Talking to the keeper or yelling like a wildman. Since you can feint during your approach I can't think of anything else a player could do. Your thoughts.
Well, feinting is one thing -- running up, planting and then stopping just before hitting the ball, then tapping it into the open side after the keeper has made his dive -- that would be deceit.

Another one given by the position paper is multiple changes in direction (effectively delaying the taking of the kick). Statesman's example of yelling something out to the keeper would be another.

[MassachusettsRef]

Statesman,

I hadn't thought about things such as yelling at the keeper in an unsporting way (like the example you describe). You're right in saying that situations like that must still be dealt with, even if the penalty is missed. I had a bit of tunnel-vision and was only thinking about feinting, since it was the point of the original thread. I still feel the same about that part and agree with Alberto--if attempted deceit is unsuccessful, there's no point in cautioning for it.

[Ismitje]

Last night (Thu 21 August) Canadian FIFA assistant referee Hector Vergara appeared as a guest on FSW Report. He provided analysis of all things related to the PK in a five minute segment (perhaps a bit longer). So, FSW followed up and got it right.

This marked Vergara's third appearance on the show in the last year. He served as AR for smething like nine matches at WC2002.

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by Ismitje
Last night (Thu 21 August) Canadian FIFA assistant referee Hector Vergara appeared as a guest on FSW Report. He provided analysis of all things related to the PK in a five minute segment (perhaps a bit longer). So, FSW followed up and got it right.

This marked Vergara's third appearance on the show in the last year. He served as AR for smething like nine matches at WC2002.
So what did he say about the Liverpool - Chelsea PK? Did they review other PKs as well like Figo's that Bobby blathered on about being illegal?

[BenC1357]

Originally posted by kevbrunton
Well, feinting is one thing -- running up, planting and then stopping just before hitting the ball, then tapping it into the open side after the keeper has made his dive -- that would be deceit.


No, thats scoring a goal. Granted, I'm a striker and we'll do anything to score but think about it.

The rule is that the keeper is supposed to keep his line until the ball is struck. If he is diving before the ball is hit, then its his fault, not the kick taker's.
Now I dont ref, and there are a few little rules in the game that are called often that I disagree with, but this is one that bugs me. The penalty kick, or free kick for that matter, is punishment for a foul. Shouldnt the kicker do anything within his means to score just as he would in any other situation? Theres nothing wrong with faking a kick in the open feild and scoring by decieving the opponent, so why is it deamed illegal in a free or penalty kick situation?

[superdave]

Originally posted by Statesman
As he was running towards the ball, he yelled out "Dive left, dumbass!" at the keeper.
Y'all probably will think I'm a bad person, but I think this is hilarious.

Statesman, enquiring minds want to know...did the PK go left, or right?

[Statesman]

It did go left -- the striker was very cocky and thought he could score even if he let the keeper know which side he was aiming for. Lots of mud on his face; probably cost his team a goal and got a caution for his troubles.

[Ismitje]

Originally posted by kevbrunton
So what did he say about the Liverpool - Chelsea PK? Did they review other PKs as well like Figo's that Bobby blathered on about being illegal?

Re the Liverpool-Chelsea pk, Vergara opined that the referee must have told the ARs to call even such a small infraction. He expressed surprise that a half step would be called. He also wondered why the R/AR didn't have some alternate set of "silent signals" that could communicate a minor infraction but not be seen by the teams if the referee wanted to play on.

The Champions League highlights show Buffon three steps off his line with no call.

As for the Figo situation - the goalie is supposed to watch the ball, so feinting wouldn't make a difference. He basically reinforced the position paper you linked to at the beginning of this thread.

Finally, he considered encroachment. I remember the specifics of these comments less well, but he stressed that strict adherence to the LOTG would result in virtually every kick retaken for encroachment.

Nice to see a segment with a FIFA AR.

[Keep]

Originally posted by BenC1357
No, thats scoring a goal. Granted, I'm a striker and we'll do anything to score but think about it.

The rule is that the keeper is supposed to keep his line until the ball is struck. If he is diving before the ball is hit, then its his fault, not the kick taker's.
Now I dont ref, and there are a few little rules in the game that are called often that I disagree with, but this is one that bugs me. The penalty kick, or free kick for that matter, is punishment for a foul. Shouldnt the kicker do anything within his means to score just as he would in any other situation? Theres nothing wrong with faking a kick in the open feild and scoring by decieving the opponent, so why is it deamed illegal in a free or penalty kick situation?

Damn strikers, thinking they can get away with anything and leave us poor keepers swinging in the breeze. ;-) Just kidding, bud, I can see where you're coming from, but I can also see the other side. In regards to your thought about the keeper keeping his line until the ball is struck, yes that's true to an extent...he cannot leave his line and move forward, but he can move laterally all he wants. A keeper anticipating a PK direction is not demonstrating good keeping fundamentals, but is within the confines of the law.

As to the deceit/UB portion of it, I guess the way I look at it a PK is more than just a DFK, so there are different rules and almost a different 'code of sportsmanship' governing it.