What Yank would you like at BL.04?

[panicfc]

Okay this is going to bring out the trolls, but other than Landon Donovan and Me :D, what other Yanks would you like to see playing for Bayer?

How about Carlos Bocanegra?

[aloisius]

There are 4 Americans that could start for Bayer: Friedel, Howard, Keller and O’Brien.
Keller is the oldest, Howard is not available, but Bayer could go after Friedel. If Blackburn are knocked out early from the UEFA cup and they don’t reach a place in Europe for the next season, he might want to leave.
John O’Brien would start for Leverkusen at DM and I think he would like to be rescued from playing LB for Ajax. Bocanegra would also be a great buy, even if he wouldn’t start. He would be the first replacement for three players, the LB Placente and the CBs Juan and Lucio. Man, I should be running a club.
But none of this will happen if Leverkusen again, as they usually do, find great S. Americans for a cheap price.
Donovan is a tough case. I think his best position is right behind a center forward. Bayer are now playing two upfront( Franca, Neuville) with a playmaker behind them. Ponte has been playing behind the front two, but he is often replaced by Bierofka who then plays on the right and Schneider moves into the middle. I think this could be the starting lineup for the next game. And Basturk will also like to play in that position when he gets healthy.
That would leave Donovan fighting for one of the forward positions with Neuville and Berbatow. I think he should get to Leverkusen in the winter and stay there for a year and half. He would probably get some playing time in the spring even if not a lot. Bayer are not playing Europe and the players will have a whole week to recover from injuries. But next year when they’re in the CL there will be a lot of rotation upfront. That’s why it would be best for him to come in the winter, stay there for 18 months and after that he can judge if Leverkusen is the right place for him.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by aloisius
Man, I should be running a club.


Yes, but please Bayern Munich according to what you wrote ;)

Given the current situation there'd hardly be a chance for any Yank to break into the starting lineup. Also Butt is not discussed at the moment- yesterday he donated a chance for de Guzman, but otherwise he is saving very well so far. Howard of course is an interesting player, but Keller very probably would not play; Friedel would deliver an open race if he came in a pre-season and not during the season. Besides that, Bayer is not looking for a goalie as they have two very good prospects (one is only 18, Rene Adler).

So, the 4-4-2 formation stays. In the defence Nowotny will return and the number one backup is Lucic for the central positions and for Balitsch as right backer. In midfield, Bierofka is an excellent backup for both wing positions. Problem currently is that there is no backup for Ponte (Bastürk injured) and Ramelow could have a better replacement than Kaluzny. Attackers are good so far, with Berbatov there is Bulgaria's Soccer Player of the Year on the bench and then there still are prospects like Schoof.

Well... the positions that might need an upgrade are right backer, defensive and attacking mid. US has no right back of major use for Leverkusen. Interesting defensive mid is Reyna, but he's too old to be thought about signing him. Attacking mid is Donovan if he wants to play this position and more important if he wants to return. Oh yes, and a left backer backup for Placente is needed - I take Bocanegra :).

[aloisius]

Howard and Keller are better keepers than Butt but as I said Howard is taken and Keller is too old. Friedel would be no.1 wright away if they signed him. I’m not saying that it will happen. O’Brien is an excellent defensive midfielder who would take Ramolow’s place or play next to him in a more defensive set-up. Bocanegra is a better central defense back-up than Lucic and who knows when is Nowotny coming back and how will he play when he does.
So we disagree on Butt. I think Friedel is better then he is and that Keller would have at lest a 50:50 chance of taking his place. You haven’t mentioned O’Brien when talking about DM.

[Basti]

None no 'yanks' please... the team is good already ;)


BTW did anyone know that Howard suffers from Tourette's syndrome? I found it pretty surprising

[olafgb]

Originally posted by aloisius
You haven’t mentioned O’Brien when talking about DM.

I don't know him good enough to evaluate him. Experience shows that Ramelow is pretty competitive and somehow always keeps his position. I doubt that O'Brien would move him to the bench, this would require some guy like Emerson.

[aloisius]

So what was it that made you wish I was running Bayern in my original post ? You said yourself that Howard is “interesting”. I think he is a bit more then that if he has succeeded to displace a World and European champion. Friedel was probably the best keeper at the WC. We can debate Keller, but I think he is also better than Butt. And O’Brien is the best American field player. I think panic will confirm that when he gets here.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by aloisius
So what was it that made you wish I was running Bayern in my original post ? You said yourself that Howard is “interesting”. I think he is a bit more then that if he has succeeded to displace a World and European champion. Friedel was probably the best keeper at the WC. We can debate Keller, but I think he is also better than Butt. And O’Brien is the best American field player. I think panic will confirm that when he gets here.

I was just kidding. The aspects we don't agree with are the goalie aspect (Americans might want to kill me, but I don't rate Keller better than average) and you're forgetting that Nowotny returns, which might move a quality player to the bench and ahead of Bocanegra. Regarding your last post I got to say that my firm opinion is that Reyna is the US team's heart and soul - watch the team with and without him and you get the impression that it can't be the same team. Reyna is on a much higher tactical level than most other Americans and therefore able to control their whole game.

[aloisius]

O’Brien is quite similar to Reyna, only left-footed and younger. He has been supremely tactically schooled at Ajax, he’s been there from the age of fourteen.

[panicfc]

Originally posted by aloisius
O’Brien is quite similar to Reyna, only left-footed and younger. He has been supremely tactically schooled at Ajax, he’s been there from the age of fourteen.

He's another one that could step in at BL.04. He's not as big as Ramelow, and that might be more important in Germany than Holland.

As for Keller - he's better than Butt. Hands are perfect, no rebounds, smart player.

Friedel - I think he is a year younger than Keller, giant, one of the best.

Howard: The next great one, who should be the best of the lot. The tourettes got a lot of play a few years back, but we've had several athletes with it make it big in the US.


Bocanegra could be a younger, super athletically, backup for a season and if we lose Lucio - he could step in.

DaMarcus Beasley??? Fast as anyone on the left side.

[JeffS]

This is a very interesting discussion.

Goalkeeper - Friedel and Howard would probably displace Butt. Friedel was chosen EPL 'keeper of the year last season, and was one of the best 'keepers in the WC. Keller has amazing hands and good box management and might have a chance of displacing Butt. Howard, for sheer ability and athleticism, would displace Butt (although he is still a bit rough around the edges).

Butt had a horrible season last year, and is Germany's number three (currently). I'm not even sure that Butt deserves to be Germany's number three. I would look at Rost, Jenchtz (spelling?) or Hildebrand as well.
Butt looks very good at times, but horrible other times.


John O'Brien could probably displace Plecente at LB, but Plecente isn't that great. However, JOB would probably not displace Carsten Ramelow at defensive mid because Ramelow is a very good, disruptive, bone-crushing, hustling, determined defensive mid. He had a good WC and is pretty consistent for Bayer. What he lacks in elegence he more than makes up for in the other qualities.

Donovan would have a hard time displacing Basturk, Ponte, Schnieder, or Bierofka at attacking mid. Each one of these guys are quality talents. However, Donovan could get his fair share of playing time at forward, where Nueville is the best, and Franca and Berbatow are okay and unproven. Donovan would not usually start, though.

Brian McBride would be an excellent additon to Bayer, and would stand a great chance to start. McBride is a prototypical target center forward and Bayer lacks a true target man. McBride did great with Everton, and I'm sure he would do great with Bayer.

Bocanegra would not diplace a healthy Nowotny (who, IMHO, is one of the best CBs in the world when healthy) or Lucio. Bocanegra would make a competent back-up, though.

DaMarcus Beasly, IMHO, would be an upgrade over Babic or Bierofka at left mid. DMB has improved by leaps and bounds, has blazing speed, has great skill, and he never stops running. DMB would improve many European clubs, as left mid is a hard position to fill, and DMB is flat out a first-class talent. This will most certainly be DMB's last season in MLS. Many Euro scouts are drooling over him.

To sum up, I can't say that many yanks would diplace anyone in the current Bayer starting eleven. The only sure thing would be the 'keeper position.

Frankly, Bayer has a lot of good young talent and I would be very surprised if they weren't competing for the to top of the BL this season, as well as earning a spot in Europe. Last season was an abberition because they lost Ballack and Ze Roberto, had lots of injuries, and were trying to gel lots of new young players.

[aloisius]

We agree on Butt. I too rate him below Rost and and The Man Of Many Consonants Jentszch.
O’Brien couldn’t displace Placente at LB I too was skeptical of him early because he doesn’t look like much and doesn’t have great speed. But he is a very clever player, almost never looses possession and defends excellently.
I don’t think that Bocanegra couldn’t take even Juan’s place. It’s just incredible how Leverkusen keep signing these great Brazilians before anyone else spots them. Bocanegra would still be a good signing because Nowotny had two serious injuries on the same knee, and he would be a great back-up for three positions.
There is no need for McBride. Leverkusen rarely take the ball of the ground and Franca is a fully proven player. He just had a terrible season last year but he’s been great on the start of this season.
I already said that it would be best for Donovan to come back in the winter and then fight it out for a place in the next 18 months. If he doesn’t make it in that period, I think Leverkusen would let him go for a small fee.
Babic has been playing great. He’s not very quick but he is wonderful on the ball. Beasley couldn’t take his place. Bayer is playing with only one DM which means the wide mids have to spend more time in the middle where the traffic is thicker, and where ball control and composure mean more than speed. Beasley needs two DM’s who would allow him to stick to the line and use his speed. Bayer always look to get good cheap players and they’ve signed two Yanks in the past, so it’s quite possible that there will be others in the future.

[olafgb]

You got to consider that the goalie is always a special problem in Leverkusen. Under Daum and Toppi (year 1) Leverkusen was used to play with 60 to 70% ball possession and they got very few attacks from the opponent in the game - these, however, often were solo runs where the goalie seldom has the opportunity to rescue a lot, or sometimes also looks bad due to simply not being involved in the game before. This was the fate for e.g. Matysek, who was no bad goalie but naturally his safe-% was pretty low. Butt has a special problem as he doesn't have the best nerves. He is a quality keeper, he proved that in Hamburg and occasionally in Leverkusen. He belongs to the category that is my main criteria of evaluating goalies: point saving goalie, i.e. he can rescue points for the team if they are playing bad (e.g. last year vs Bayern, this year in Frankfurt). Another underrated goalie of this category is Gabor Kiraly from Berlin, who often is just considered by the risky play and occasional mistakes. And I got to say that Keller IMO does not fit to the category, besides that he is too old to be considered in Leverkusen.

Butt btw is no. 4 in Germany, Rost overtook him. Taking someone to a tournament is something different though as Kahn, Lehmann and Rost are no easy characters and you always have to fear that the two on the bench start hacking on the no.1 if he's doing a mistake - Butt is easy to handle, he'll sit on the bench without saying anything. Doesn't belong here, but my no.1 is Lehmann and both Rost and Stuttgart's Hildebrandt are darn close to Kahn.

The interesting names you came up with were Beasley and McBride. The problem with Beasley is that Bierofka (24) and Babic (22) both are very young and they get better and better. I like Beasley, he's a very good player, but the left side is occupied in Leverkusen.

McBride is interesting as Leverkusen has no real good header in the offence. Except Berbatov (on the bench at the moment, 6'2") there is no tall offence player. But then again, aloisius is right, Leverkusen uses to keep the ball on the ground; and at standard situations Leverkusen relies on the very tall defence. However, it wouldn't harm to have a tall forward to be more flexible. At the moment I don't see how a new player would fit into the team, but the situation can be entirely different in five games

[JeffS]

Well, Bayer now have a very good group of young players and if they can gel all season they should do very well. Adding any of the mentioned yanks would not make them substantially better, it would merely add to their depth. Maybe one of the US 'keepers would displace Butt, and maybe the likes of O'Brien, Bocanegra, McBride, etc. would get some decent playing time. But I doubt many of the current starting ten field players at Bayer would be automatically displaced by an incoming yank.

Olaf, you've got to be feeling fairly optimistic about Bayer's good start and their long rang prospects :)

[jonny]

I would take Buddle , Carlos Ruiz(ok he is not American) and Ricardo Clark

[panicfc]

Buddle and Clark are going to be big time players. They need to get away soon.