The Log Jam: revisited

[OWN(yewu)ED]

been about 8 months since we last had this debate, and alot has been sorted out since then. Basically the biggest being that we have some good central midfielders, but most of them are the same kind of midfielder and dont mix together. Bob's been mixing up the [Bradley and X] pairing commendably enough, like many of us wanted to see. We know Bradley is one of our starters, and asside from a handful of posters who cannot accept he reality of it, its a fact most of us accept and are pretty happy with overall. But the question is, who is Michael Bradley's foil? who pairs up best with him??

Bradley-Clark: YIKES, next pairing

Bradley-Feilhaber: club situation asside he was probably our best compliment for bradley, and from the ecuador match to the gold cup final showed that. However some very lackluster performances followed, albeit out of position at right mid, the Derby situation cashed down, and despite a decent enough showing as a mexico substitute, its all come crashing down since then in U-23 camp. Benny's gotta sort it out before being considered again. He's got the potential to be the best fit, but really has fallen off the mountain. He's got the talent to be the best, but he needs an attitude change.

Bradley-Edu: At the present moment in time, given certain circumstances, this may be our best center mid pairing in my opinion. Id say the results have been neutral. id give the switzerland trot out with these two 6 out of 10, it wasnt pretty but it got the job done, alot of u were fairly impressed with Edu's first runnout. And the South Africa first half started out well enough, but wow it was a disasterpiece in the second half. We were found out, and found out with a vengence. Probably lucky to escape 1-0 i that one. So we saw some good, some bad. Im just really, really worried it will just be a similar situation to Bradley-Clark, and that they are ultimately too similar a player. Given the situation though im willing to see another trot out of this pairing, and what theyre about. Let them feel each other out more, we may hve something here.

Bradley-adu: we all know its eventually going to happen. Is it time? after the U-23 comp it could be the start of bradley-adu. Foaming at the mouth already to see this combo. When we're ready to trot this out, its going to be dangerous. It may be ready as soon as this fall even.

and now people are throwing out some familiar names to be in front of bradley that we all know too well

Bradley-Dempsey: Im not sure Dempsey has the skill to be the field general at the national team level......yet. I like him best at right mid, and i think thats where he fits best with this team. Would it work?? again im not sure. Dempsey's Gold Cup resume was lacking when given consistent time up top, and even Fulham's faithful who watch him week in and week out have emphasized that Dempsey is not a forward, and like him as a right midfielder. This one could work, but we wouldnt have an optimal USMNT IMO.

Bradley-Donovan: In the near future we could be talking about Donovan and Adu switching in and out of position like Dempsey and Donovan now. This would be a great pairing i think as well, get donovan in his ideal position, and he and Adu could be running switches all day. That may be what happens anyway. Donovan has shown he is the most valuable artery on this team, and is the biggest goalscorer in the teams history. So by logic i think the US's all time leading goalscorer should be in well, be put in position to score goals. Donovan could do it too, just like Adu IMO. if push came to shove.

the others:

Klejstan; Honduras game made my jaw drop in how horrible he was, he connected more with the hondurans than our team. He's not ready.

Szetela; yet another bradley style player, just doesnt seem to be a good fit. Im all for throwing him out for a game just to see if it works, but i dont think it will. Besides Szetela can play outside decently enough,and we need a number two guy at right mid, he may be a good option out wide.

Nguyen: during these patented all euro friendlies he may get the odd runnout, and i think this will be one of these games, and why not throw him in his most comfortable position at center mid during that limited time. may surprise?? who knows....he'd be more effective than.....*ahem*.....josh wolff.


if i missed anyone in the immediate picture or even an outsider looking in throw them in here too.

[Maitreya]

I just have to say that I don't like the Bradley plus guy-who-won't-play- defense (Adu, Donovan) pairings because I don't trust the defenders to cope without the defensive help from central midfield. It's worth a try in a friendly anyway, but imo we need faster and more technical fullbacks and much better all-around center backs to pull this off.

[Maximum Optimal]

We know Bradley is one of our starters, and asside from a handful of posters who cannot accept he reality of it, its a fact most of us accept and are pretty happy with overall.

Yup, I'm one of those posters referenced above.

But if we inhabit a world in which MB has to be one of our central mids, my choice for his partner would be Donovan. Those two are probably our fittest guys and cover more ground than anyone (except possibly a fit and healthy DMB). Bradley's physicality and Donovan's speed should help them complement each other. Bradley would play the more defensive role, but I think they are both smart enough players that they could cover for each other so that both should have opportunities to make attacking forays. I also think Donovan's defense is underrated. He is certainly much better than Adu defensively.

I'd like to see the Bradley-Donovan pairing given a look against relatively physical teams like Poland and England. I think Bradley would have more trouble against more technical teams like Spain and Argentina and would prefer to see him sit in favor of either Clark or Edu in those games. It is worth keeping in mind that Bradley looked better against Switzerland than South Africa. Those two games give us a hint as to what matchups will favor him and which ones won't.

[Haddamlion]

The Bradley-Adu combo, in the middle, seems like a very potent option. If this is indeed what we will end up seeing in South Africa then the sooner coach Bradley starts pairing them the better.

Dempsey is very dangerous around the goal, but he never seems to make himself available. I think with him on the right wing we would get nice offensive movement.

[FakeFlopper]

Who's the best sidekick for MB? If it's Adu, then you'll need a better defender like Edu in the middle, not Bradley. Edu faster, stronger and will cover well when Adu pushes up in the attack. Edu can man the backline pretty well, I only cringe at the thought of MB as a CB. Also MB is more of an attacking mid for his club team and his dad's tactics are resticting his play, so his talent is not maximized. Bradley's best partner so far is Benny, so I'd vote for Benny if it were tomorrow.

[CK]

Best partner for Bradley: Edu

Best partner for the team: Adu (when he's ready--hopefully by fall 08)

Having Edu in the middle will maximize Bradley's potential as a central midfield player. Edu has strong defensive capabilities that will allow Bradley to venture into the attack, yet Edu also provides decent passing abilities to advance the ball through the offense.

The best combonation for the USMNT will/should be the Bradley/Adu combination. Both are looking to be the best CM's we will have this cycle. While this maximizes the Nat's threat on offense it minimizes Bradley's ability to go forward. In this combination Bradley will have to make a conscious effort to stay back to overcompensate for Adu shortcomings defensively (more due to his role rather than skill). However, Bradley will still be in the line-up and will still make runs into the box to score--though not as frequent.

[IndividualEleven]

been about 8 months since we last had this debate, and alot has been sorted out since then. Basically the biggest being that we have some good central midfielders, but most of them are the same kind of midfielder and dont mix together. Bob's been mixing up the [Bradley and X] pairing commendably enough, like many of us wanted to see. We know Bradley is one of our starters, and asside from a handful of posters who cannot accept he reality of it, its a fact most of us accept and are pretty happy with overall. But the question is, who is Michael Bradley's foil? who pairs up best with him??

.

None of the pairings you suggest are optimal within the tactics and framwork that BBradley employs.

When confronting a team of substance the attack relies heavily on the flanks and long-ball, bypassing the midfield. A Bob Bradley quote postied iin another thread stated that one of the reasons LD got moved to the flanks was that he wouldn't see much of the ball if played centrally.

The central mids are going to be defensively minded when the team plays quality.

The central mids with the requisite skillset and who are actually getting club time would be:

Nate Sturgis
Edu
Clark
McCarty
Spector

Again this is within the framework of the tactics that BB employs. Other mids used in the spot provided little in the way of defense or were yellow and red card machines.

[Clint Eastwood]

For world cup qualifying we'll probably see the Bradley-Edu combo, which I'm fine with. I think Adu will get his opportunities with this team as a forward, particularly if Bob sticks with his current formation.

By the way, have we given up on Pablo Mastroeni? He could still do a job for us, and is still on the radar for qualifiers. He's only 31 right now. Perhaps by the time 2010 rolls around he'll be a little long in the tooth, but 31 ain't exactly ancient. Gattuso is 30, Viera is 31, etc. etc.

It also wouldn't shock me if Clyde Simms has a good season for DC. He's going to have a very important role for DC, and if he does a good job then I think he'll also be an interesting option. I was pretty impressed with him last night against Harbor View (I know it was just Harbor View).

Oh, and Kyle Beckerman can't be forgotten either.

We have a tendency on these boards to dive head-long into the future, which is good. We have some great young players. But these older guys are still in the picture. (Not that I'd select them, though. I'd go with Bradley and Edu, with Altidore and Donovan up top).

[Sweetness]

I will be very surprised if we ever see Adu playing CM in a two-man midfield against quality opposition. Given Adu's lack of defense and his propensity for the hollywood pass, I don't see that being a valid formation because we would have so little possession.

Same goes for Donovan as his work rate is much better in attacking positions than defending. At times he can work hard tracking back, but his ball winning skills are often best displayed when he thinks he can turn the play into a quick counter attack. IMO Donovan has the skill set to be a CM, but he doesn't have the mindset. Donovan needs to show he can play CM against quality opposition before he is considered a legit option at CM. Not to mention that even if he can pull it off it takes away a lot of his strengths as he is best when given space to run into on counter attacks, which is something he wouldn't see much of from CM.

At the moment we are left with some variation of Bradley, Feilhaber, Edu, Clark. Given the youth and relative short careers of these players I need to wait and see how they develop as players and what roles they take at their clubs until evaluating the best pairing.

Our central midfield prospects are quite interesting given the youth of our best options and how close they are rated at this time. It could even end up more complicated if Dax, Sasha, Arguez, or some other player emerge.

[onefineesq]

So what I'm seeing here is that most people think that an attacking central midfielder in a 2 man central midfield tandem should be looked at first and foremost as to whether his defense is great? I respectfully disagree. If the amid isn't the greatest on defense, then maybe the defensive midfielder chosen should be a tougher defensive player to compensate. It all depends on who ya think the best 2 guys are. In this case, Bradley is going to start, and we all know that. With that being the case, I say push him forward to the attacking position and play Edu behind them. I simply don't like them both playing so deep in the midfield.

[hoya]

The real question here is will bradley ever abandon the empty bucket/ kick and run style. If the answer is no (I fear it is) than we will never see anyone like Adu, Donovan or Dempsey in the center.

As long as the empty bucket remains the options to pair with Bradley are Edu, Feilhaber and Clark. I dont think anyone else even deserves to be considered ahead of these three right now. For now I think Edu should be the number one option to pair with Bradley and Feilhaber the number two. Unless Edu impresses more than he has so far Feilhaber jumps him when he sorts his problems out (whatever they may be).

If Bob evers grows a pair and tries some more offensive formations out then I think Adu, Donovan and Dempsey become possibilities in a 4-4-2 diamond midfield. I really hope Bob at least tries something like this sometime soon. IMO the best look would be the following:

----------Altidore--------------
---------------LD or CD--------
--------- Adu/LD--------------
LM---------------------LD or CD
-----------Bradley-------------
back four

Dempsey and Donovan can play either RM or withdrawn striker, Adu and donovan can play either withdrawn striker or CAM. Obviously this formation is not as strong defensively as what we currently use but IMO it is much better offensively and that makes up for it. For those of you who will claim this is a misuse of MB the fact is that he has been much more effective as more of a CDM for the national team and until that changes I will see him as a CDM for national team purposes.

[Sweetness]

So what I'm seeing here is that most people think that an attacking central midfielder in a 2 man central midfield tandem should be looked at first and foremost as to whether his defense is great? I respectfully disagree. If the amid isn't the greatest on defense, then maybe the defensive midfielder chosen should be a tougher defensive player to compensate.You may have misunderstood. Being able to play d is a necessity for an attacking central midfielder if he is going to play in a 2-man midfield. If he can't then putting Adu or Donovan or similar player in that sort of role takes away their strengths and weakens the team.

That's not a big mystery as club teams around the world display the necessity for an attacking mid to be backed up by two more defensive minded mids. Even cm's who can play d are now being supported with two mids, look at Gerrard and Deco for example who play solid d. There are countless other examples of A-mids supported by two mids throughout the world and scarce examples of them playing alongside a single more defensive minded dm.

If you feel it is a possibility then perhaps you could show some lineups of teams that have a player with the defensive mindset/skills of Adu or even Donovan playing in such a formation.

And while we might be able to play with Adu and Donovan at CM against certain opposition it is even another question of if we want to as the time to spend tracking back and chasing the ball would give them less time with the ball in dangerous positions, which is certainly their strength. Let other players chase the ball and feed it to Adu and Donovan to create upfield. Not the other way around.

Playing Adu or Donovan there would not be the best place to put them for the team or to maximize their individual strengths as players.

[Adam Zebrowski]

agree, bradley with edu seems by far the best option...

adu for edu...ah, adu lacks the defensive presence edu brings, and versus decent teams, more defensive presence is needed in midfield...

adu is the 2nd guy behind donovan or dempsey, and starts if either misses a match, but can be the attack option off the bench...

i see ching over altidore initially...

as the wcq goes thru the hex, say when confed cup 2009 gets played, adu and altidore should be seizing starting time, at least at confed cup.

[Maximum Optimal]

Donovan needs to show he can play CM against quality opposition before he is considered a legit option at CM.

Yes it is an open question as to how he would do at CM. But worth trying. I'd like to see him given a couple games there. We have four quality friendlies coming up--Poland, England, Spain, Argentina. These are good opportunities to do some stress testing.

[mcnaulty21]

By the way, have we given up on Pablo Mastroeni? He could still do a job for us, and is still on the radar for qualifiers. He's only 31 right now. Perhaps by the time 2010 rolls around he'll be a little long in the tooth, but 31 ain't exactly ancient. Gattuso is 30, Viera is 31, etc. etc.I haven't. I'm a huge fan.

Unfortunately for us Mastro fans, it seems like he may no longer have a significant role with the Nats. He'll still be around as a veteran presence, but he'll be marginalized on the field.
However, it is good to see our center mids becoming more two-way, rather than pure destroyers like Pablo.

[TrueCrew]

I project Stuart Holden as an excellent 2 way central mid.

Especially as a partner for Bradley.

[ussoccerFan12358]

I think our best central attack will ultimately consist of Bradley-Feilhaber in central midfield with one of Donovan, Dempsey or Adu playing withdrawn striker behind Altidore.

If we play say an Argentina or Brazil (teams with shifty players all over the place) Clark or Edu could slip in in place of Feilhaber and let Bradley try to follow crosses in for some cheap goals. This would mean more wing play so I guy like Szetela would be used on the right and a Holden on the left.

[Mr Martin]

So what I'm seeing here is that most people think that an attacking central midfielder in a 2 man central midfield tandem should be looked at first and foremost as to whether his defense is great? I respectfully disagree. If the amid isn't the greatest on defense, then maybe the defensive midfielder chosen should be a tougher defensive player to compensate. It all depends on who ya think the best 2 guys are. In this case, Bradley is going to start, and we all know that. With that being the case, I say push him forward to the attacking position and play Edu behind them. I simply don't like them both playing so deep in the midfield.

I would be happy with this.

If I can make an international comparison for Bradley and Edu, without being accused of saying that Bradley and Edu are as good as the two internationals I am about to mention ... :D

... I can envision using Edu more defensively in central midfield and Bradley more forward in central midfield, sort of like how Germany has at times used Frings and Ballack. Again, I don't think Edu is as good as Frings, nor Bradley as good as Ballack. But Bradley's offensive style in Holland, with Edu covering his back, reminds me somewhat of the German central midfield.

Clark and Mastro back up Edu. Feilhaber and Klejstan fight for the backup role behind Bradley.

Adu's role will be more forward, as the second striker and super-sub off the bench through the 2010 WC cycle. I completely agree with the posters who don't like Adu as a central mid with only one defensive central mid behind him. That's not how Adu was used (very effectively) with the U23's, and to think he would then be used as 1 of only 2 central mids for the full Nat's is very unrealistic.

[ussoccerFan12358]

I would be happy with this.

If I can make an international comparison for Bradley and Edu, without being accused of saying that Bradley and Edu are as good as the two internationals I am about to mention ... :D

... I can envision using Edu more defensively in central midfield and Bradley more forward in central midfield, sort of like how Germany has at times used Frings and Ballack. Again, I don't think Edu is as good as Frings, nor Bradley as good as Ballack. But Bradley's offensive style in Holland, with Edu covering his back, reminds me somewhat of the German central midfield.

Clark and Mastro back up Edu. Feilhaber and Klejstan fight for the backup role behind Bradley.

Adu's role will be more forward, as the second striker and super-sub off the bench through the 2010 WC cycle. I completely agree with the posters who don't like Adu as a central mid with only one defensive central mid behind him. That's not how Adu was used (very effectively) with the U23's, and to think he would then be used as 1 of only 2 central mids for the full Nat's is very unrealistic.

This is so freakin ridiculous for supporters of our national team to say Edu is as good as Ballack or even that Bradley is as good as Frings.

Freakin' insanity!:mad:

Don't neg-rep me, I'm kidding.

[IndividualEleven]

So what I'm seeing here is that most people think that an attacking central midfielder in a 2 man central midfield tandem should be looked at first and foremost as to whether his defense is great? I respectfully disagree. If the amid isn't the greatest on defense, then maybe the defensive midfielder chosen should be a tougher defensive player to compensate. It all depends on who ya think the best 2 guys are. In this case, Bradley is going to start, and we all know that. With that being the case, I say push him forward to the attacking position and play Edu behind them. I simply don't like them both playing so deep in the midfield.

BB's tactical approach--the attacking fullbacks and the longball--necessitates the use of the deep lying-midfielders. Without such the ball would be reversed down the teams' collective throat on counters by compentent opponents even worse than than it has been.

Notice how central midfield got sliced and diced with Feilhaber in there. Notice the cards Bradley keeps picking up. Those players don't fit the tactics. Moving one up would only make matters worse.