Wither the 2-striker partnership?

[cpwilson80]

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=517463&root=england&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos3&cc=590

I really liked the analysis in the above article. Norman Hubbard details the rapid rise of the lone-striker formation in England, particularly when compared to the inception of the Premier League.

What do you guys think for the US? We've had such a difficult time finding a striker that finding two guys on the frontline may be too difficult.

Nowak's shown a proclivity for the lone-striker formation with both Altidore and Barrett. Altidore is the natural choice heading in to 2010, but is that too much responsibility for a young player?

What potential partnerships come to mind? Johnson - Altidore? Davies - Altidore? Donovan - Ching? Johnson - Dempsey?

As you can probably tell, I haven't formed an opinion on this, but I thought I'd start the discussion.

[QuakeAttack]

A single striker needs two things:

All around ability (holding, creative, good in the air, speed, etc.)
Strong attacking midfield (one or two players)I see too many coaches who don't have number one trying to play a single striker. Just doesn't work and can be real boring.

Of course, in many cases, one of the midfielders end up playing almost like a withdrawn forward.

As far as the US, we don't have number one, but are closer at number two (Adu, Dempsey, Donovan). Frankly, I hope that in a couple of years that Altidore is up top and Donovan/Adu is playing a withdrawn forward role.

[tomwilhelm]

Frankly, I hope that in a couple of years that Altidore is up top and Donovan/Adu is playing a withdrawn forward role.
My vote is for both. But we don't have the other midfield personnel to make that happen.

[Marko72]

I honestly think, in the long run, the best possible use of our talent is a 4231-ish look, with Jozy as the lone forward, and Beasley, Dempsey and Donovan as the basically full-out attacking mids (with Adu spelling somebody around the 70th minute as a supersub).

That said, Altidore's only going to frustrate himself, Bob Bradley, the team, and the fans if he's put alone up top at this point in his career. His off-the-ball game hasn't really developed yet, and putting him in a lone striker role will only exacerbate that for the time being.

So, for now, 442, ideally with Dempsey or Donovan and occasionally Adu as his strike partner.

[Marko72]

A single striker needs two things:

All around ability (holding, creative, good in the air, speed, etc.)
Strong attacking midfield (one or two players)I see too many coaches who don't have number one trying to play a single striker. Just doesn't work and can be real boring.

Of course, in many cases, one of the midfielders end up playing almost like a withdrawn forward.

As far as the US, we don't have number one, but are closer at number two (Adu, Dempsey, Donovan). Frankly, I hope that in a couple of years that Altidore is up top and Donovan/Adu is playing a withdrawn forward role.

Similar to what I say. VERY similar, actually.

[Bob Morocco]

In a good 4-2-3-1 Jozy should always have a Mid playing in a second forward role, the US just hasn't made it happen yet with the U23s. Dempsey, Adu, and Donovan can all rotate between the second striker role and playing wide on either side of the field. Beasley can spend times on both flanks and be successful. Rogers, Gaven, Holden, Alvarez, Mapp, and a few others also fit in nicely. If the game calls for it it can easily be switched to a 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-3-2-1 or a 3-5-2.

[cpwilson80]

In a good 4-2-3-1 Jozy should always have a Mid playing in a second forward role, the US just hasn't made it happen yet with the U23s. Dempsey, Adu, and Donovan can all rotate between the second striker role and playing wide on either side of the field. Beasley can spend times on both flanks and be successful. Rogers, Gaven, Holden, Alvarez, Mapp, and a few others also fit in nicely. If the game calls for it it can easily be switched to a 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-3-2-1 or a 3-5-2.

I think we caught a slight glimpse of the 4-2-3-1 at the start of the second half against Ecuador last year.

From what I saw, it looked like this:

---------------Ching---------------
------------------------------------
--------------Donovan--------------
-Beasley-------------------Dempsey-
------------------------------------
-------------Feilhaber---------------
-------------------Bradley-----------

[tomwilhelm]

Trade out Ching for Altidore and that's the best front 6 we can put on the field right now...

[Adam Zebrowski]

agree, short term, meaning wcq in june, ching is the answer, while altidore goes off on the u-23 gig, presuming usa can beat canada...

say ching enters the semis as #1, once usa cliches a ehx slot, altidore plays any remaining semi matches...

altidore gets more mls, the u-23, and semi action where he's NOT the key guy..

still, altidore as sub for ching is worthwhile too...

let's see the tactics versus canada tomorrow and see how altidore and adu get used, and what other 2 attacking options are in play...

nowak and bradley will be telling usa quite a bit from those tactics..

[Adam Zebrowski]

ching short term is the answer, with altidore moving up quickly, i suspect afetr his u-23 gig, altidore enters the equation, although ching, given form, starts with altidore his caddy...

once usa clinches the hex, then altidore plays any remaining semi matches..

same principle for adu too

[sidefootsitter]

Arsenal also plays with Adebayor and either Eduardo (before his injury) or van Persie on top. Plus, Wenger has Hleb and Ebouye/Rosicky on wings and Cesc and Flamini running up from the deep. There's enough offense to make an occasional lone striker work.

ManU usually plays with two strikers.

Liverpool plays - or has been playing recently - with 3 strikers with Babel-Torres-Kuijt across the top.

Everton plays with Cahill behind Yakubu in 4-4-1-1 or with two strikers.

Portsmouth can play with one or two - Defoe+Barros and/or Kanu and/or Nugent and before them with Benjani.

ManCity plays with two.

Newcastle plays with two (but two wrong ones).

Blackburn plays with two (and even though Benni McCarthy has struggled, Matt Derbishire and Jason Roberts have played well lately)

Wigan plays with two (Heskey + King).

Reading plays with two (Kitson/Long + Doyle).

'Boro plays with two (Tuncay + Mido/Aliadiere).

Villa plays with two.

Fulham has played with two (under Sanchez and last week under Hodgson).

Derby has played with two (and one).

Sunderland has played with either (Jones +/- Chopra/Prica/Murphy).

Moreover, aside of Italy, pretty much everyone who's anyone in Europe plays either with 2 forwards or, in Holland, in 4-3-3.

The US neither plays the ball on the ground or shoots from the outside well enough to go with one forward.

Case closed.

[cpwilson80]

The US neither plays the ball on the ground or shoots from the outside well enough to go with one forward.

Case closed.


Thanks for the rundown...next time, just click the link.

The purpose of this discussion is for the US team.

If we need a 2-striker system, who do you propose as the guys up top for 2008 or 2010?

Why couldn't three of Adu, Donovan, Dempsey, or Beasley operate as a second line of attack?

Again, I don't have a set opinion here, but I'd like to keep this constructive and relevant.

[Scorpion26]

Honestly I think the partnership of Jozy, and EJ up top will be one of our better options. EJ is in Europe, and hopefully mature his game to be more of a complete striker. Jozy will be going to Europe soon, and should improve his game as well. I think that the two will do very well together EJ with power, & Speed, and Jozy the power, and holder. That to me would be an idealistic partnership for the future. My overall thought on the US formation is that they go with a 3-5-2 utilizing our mids, and still using two strikers. I would have to agree with Sidefootsitter that the US is not good enough to play with one striker. With the lack of outside backs I think having to use three CB with Edu, R.Clark, and Bradley(Which ever of the plays) in front of them would be good enough. At keeper it won't matter who it is Howard or Guzan will be a good option depending which of them is in top form. Lets not forget other keepers that could over come them so Keeper is in great shape for many years. The team could look like this in 2010

---------Howard------------
--Subotic---Gooch---Spector--
------------Bradley------------
Landon------------------Beasley
------------Adu----------
------------Dempsey---------
---------Jozy---EJ-----------


All of this can be switch up throughout the years. I think we got plenty of CB's, and why not just rock with three at the back.

[sidefootsitter]

Thanks for the rundown...next time, just click the link. I did. I think the guy is full of sh!t.

Most teams that go to 4-5-1 are the lower-tier Premiership teams who are working for a draw.

Internationally, Milan can play with one or two strikers. Ancelotti went with one (Pato) at the Emirates where he was working for a draw (and got it) and then with two (Pato and Pipo) at home.

The purpose of this discussion is for the US team. If we need a 2-striker system, who do you propose as the guys up top for 2008 or 2010? I'd say Ching-Donovan is the system that had worked the best for the US in 2007 (subject to how the midfield aligns).

One could play Eddie Johnson as a sole striker at Mexico, if you're playing it close to the vest.

Why couldn't three of Adu, Donovan, Dempsey, or Beasley operate as a second line of attack? I don't think it will (a)do the trick against a decent team.

Again, I don't have a set opinion here, but I'd like to keep this constructive and relevant. Hypothetically, a good coach will have tried all types of forward combinations - 4-5-1 with a quick/fast forward (Johnson or Donovan); 4-5-1 with a holding forward (Jozy or Chinger ... Lippi played it with Toni); 4-4-2 with an old Big Man/Small Man combo (Ching + Donovan/Johnson), 4-4-2 with two big men (Ching, Altidore, Johnson, Jaqua), etc.

But then a good coach would try something besides the Empty Bucket too.

[Bob Morocco]

I did. I think the guy is full of sh!t.

Most teams that go to 4-5-1 are the lower-tier Premiership teams who are working for a draw.

Internationally, Milan can play with one or two strikers. Ancelotti went with one (Pato) at the Emirates where he was working for a draw (and got it) and then with two (Pato and Pipo) at home.

I'd say Ching-Donovan is the system that had worked the best for the US in 2007 (subject to how the midfield aligns).

One could play Eddie Johnson as a sole striker at Mexico, if you're playing it close to the vest.

I don't think it will (a)do the trick against a decent team.

Hypothetically, a good coach will have tried all types of forward combinations - 4-5-1 with a quick/fast forward (Johnson or Donovan); 4-5-1 with a holding forward (Jozy or Chinger ... Lippi played it with Toni); 4-4-2 with an old Big Man/Small Man combo (Ching + Donovan/Johnson), 4-4-2 with two big men (Ching, Altidore, Johnson, Jaqua), etc.

But then a good coach would try something besides the Empty Bucket too.

Please for the love of God Bob Bradley let your son do what he does best, as well as Edu? It's not like you're surprising anyone, they have the internet in other countries too.

[olephill2]

Most teams that go to 4-5-1 are the lower-tier Premiership teams who are working for a draw.
I think you made a good point in your last post that the USA doesn't play the ball enough on the ground or shoot from the outside enough for a 4-5-1, but I wanted to point out that every team in the top-5 has played a 4-5-1 somewhat often this season.

Chelsea does it most of the time, with Drogba (or Sheva or Anelka) up top and a 5-man midfield of Essien, Lampard, SWP, Cole and Ballack/Makelele.

Man U, while they don't play a 4-5-1, they don't play a 4-4-2 in the traditional sense that Norman Hubbard talks about, because both Tevez and Rooney are smaller types who like to track back fairly deep to get the ball. They almost play like attacking midfielders a lot of the time.

I've seen Arsenal play this season with just Adebayor up top, though I'm not sure how often they do it because I haven't seen the Gunners play too often.

Liverpool's line-up I guess could be interpreted either as a 4-5-1 or a 4-3-3 when you have Kuyt and Babel as the flankers.

David Moyes tends to prefer a 4-4-1-1 at Everton, with Cahill "in the hole" behind Yakubu, as you said.

[Jonny Bishop]

This is an interesting discussion, this article (here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article3423377.ece)) treats the same topic and is one of the most interesting reads I've had in the last few weeks.

I think the truth of the matter is that U.S. players need to become more adaptable on the field, in the run of play. It's not so much the rules that are a problem for us, it's the how and when to break them.

[sidefootsitter]

The Times article is a far superior one.

Its only failure was to forget to mention who plays the Empty Bucket every game and ain't too flexible.

BTW, when Chelsea plays with Kalou and Cole wide, it plays like 4-3-3, not 4-5-1, even though Mourinho wanted his wiide guys to track back a little more.

[cpwilson80]

This is an interesting discussion, this article (here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article3423377.ece)) treats the same topic and is one of the most interesting reads I've had in the last few weeks.


Good read.

One quote jumped out at me...the bold is mine:

“Rigidity still exists defensively, perhaps even more so, with nearly every team using four at the back and many using two screening midfielders,” says Roxburgh. “These defensive blocks are so good that attacking systems have to be fluid to succeed. And there is more need than ever for the soloist, the player like Kaka or Cristiano Ronaldo who beats the system. What you see less of is set methods when attacking.”

Who fills that role for the US?

[tomwilhelm]

Our improvisarios are Adu, Donovan, and Dempsey. Not saying any are up there on the list with guys like C.Ronaldo, but they're the guys that tend to AT LEAST TRY to do unexpected, clever, and dangerous things when they get the ball...