VfB Stuttgart-Deutscher Meister 07 Thread 07/08 part 2 [R]

[footyfan1]

With da Silva: Seems almost certain that he'll move. Hopefully it won't be to Karlsruhe.




Kicker.de says the deal with KSC is done.

Story here (http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/startseite/artikel/379722/)

[benztown]

And now rumors appear that Claudio Pizarro might go to Stuttgart. Another indication that Gomez will be gone after the Euro. :(

[footyfan1]

And now rumors appear that Claudio Pizarro might go to Stuttgart. Another indication that Gomez will be gone after the Euro. :(

Pizarro is no replacement for Gomez. He would simply be an upgrade.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

Kicker.de says the deal with KSC is done.

Story here (http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/startseite/artikel/379722/)

Yes, it's now official, Toni da Silva has left VfB and joined Karlsruhe.

Thanks for the two years Toni, thanks for your role in the title win, and good luck in the future!*




*Though I won't wish your new side the same luck.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

And now rumors appear that Claudio Pizarro might go to Stuttgart. Another indication that Gomez will be gone after the Euro. :(

Pizarro would be a good buy, he's a solid striker who has talent and can score goals. I'd be pleased if he came to VfB, though of course it's hard to see him as an equal to Gomez.

We'll have to see what happens, though Gomez's relatively poor EC so far at least raises the chances that he'll stay with us. For his own good though, I hope he's able to show what he's made of in Germany last game(s).

[frasermc]

just how big of a 'derby' is Vfb-Karlsruhe?

how close are they geographically?

have there been any incidents in the past that have heightened/increased the rivalry between the two clubs?

[frasermc]

We'll have to see what happens, though Gomez's relatively poor EC so far at least raises the chances that he'll stay with us. For his own good though, I hope he's able to show what he's made of in Germany last game(s).

i had him in my UEFA fantasy football team for the first two games but had to drop him for the last round of group matches.. :o

i was worried that he may be benched as he's been struggling to make an impact, although i understand that Germany play a different system to what he's used to at club level.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

just how big of a 'derby' is Vfb-Karlsruhe?

how close are they geographically?

have there been any incidents in the past that have heightened/increased the rivalry between the two clubs?

I'd say it wouldn't be an exaggeration to call it one of the biggest derbies in German football. And arguably, along with 1860-Bayern imo, it is THE biggest of derbies in the south of Germany. Dortmund-Schalke is still probably by quite some way the biggest derby in Germany. That's just my opinion though.

They are close geographically, Stuttgart and Karlsruhe are the biggest and second-biggest(respectively) cities in the German region of Baden-Wuerttemberg. Also, Karlsruhe is located in Baden, Stuttgart in Wuerttemberg, two areas with a history of rivalry. Also they are the two most popular sides of the region.

As for recent incidents, this season was the first time in a decade that we had derbies since KSC had been in the Second division and Regionalliga during this time. The two games were fairly incident-free, besides the usual stuff that would happen in derbies. Both teams were fined in both matches for different fan-related stuff, such as pyros and the like. But nothing extreme.

[nanni]

so Mexicans are neg repping me for spelling Mexico Meshico in my sign..ha...idk should i change it guys?!

read my sign...

[footyfan1]

I'd say it wouldn't be an exaggeration to call it one of the biggest derbies in German football.

I think that's a big exaggeration. Of course with you being from that area, it's more important to you than people living anywhere else.

As a person who enjoys football as a whole, I have to say that it doesn't especially peak my interest when Stuttgart and KSC play.

I'll be more interested in Koln v. Leverkusen and Gladbach against the both of them this season.


Is Stuttgart v. Kaiserslautern considered a "derby" to you guys??

I know most of the FCK fans think it is. How do you guys feel about it??


And arguably, along with 1860-Bayern imo, it is THE biggest of derbies in the south of Germany. Dortmund-Schalke is still probably by quite some way the biggest derby in Germany. That's just my opinion though.

That, I partially agree with. It's definitely one of the biggest derbies in "southern" Germany, but it doesn't come close to Bayern v. 1860. I'd put Stuttgart v. KSC along the same lines of Bayern v. 1. FC Nuernberg.



They are close geographically, Stuttgart and Karlsruhe are the biggest and second-biggest(respectively) cities in the German region of Baden-Wuerttemberg. Also, Karlsruhe is located in Baden, Stuttgart in Wuerttemberg, two areas with a history of rivalry. Also they are the two most popular sides of the region.

Until Hoffenheim's rise, they both pretty much only had Freiburg to deal with from that region.

Now that Hoffenheim is there, what do you think that will do to the Stuttgart v. KSC thing? Will it bring you guys more "together" now that you both will "hate" Hoffenheim?

Or will it make a difference that many of Hoffenheim's supporters also like VfB?

And does Hoffenheim's rise make Freiburg even more irrelevant now??

Or will Freiburg remain hated with VfB fans as long as they have that former Kickers coach? ;)


As for recent incidents, this season was the first time in a decade that we had derbies since KSC had been in the Second division and Regionalliga during this time. The two games were fairly incident-free, besides the usual stuff that would happen in derbies. Both teams were fined in both matches for different fan-related stuff, such as pyros and the like. But nothing extreme.

Are you thinking KSC's time away calmed the rivalry some??

[squidward123]

Pizarro is no replacement for Gomez. He would simply be an upgrade.

Pizzaro an upgrade over gomez??

[footyfan1]

Pizzaro an upgrade over gomez??

No. What made you even think that?

An upgrade over their other strikers.

And now that I think of it, that isn't necessarily true except in experience.

[squidward123]

No. What made you even think that?


I dunno...the way I read it was he isn't a replacement (of equal ability) but
an upgrade! lol

[footyfan1]

I dunno...the way I read it was he isn't a replacement (of equal ability) but an upgrade! lol


And what sense would that make??

Let me put it to you this way. If you read it and it doesn't make sense to you, I probably don't mean it the way you're reading it.

[squidward123]

And what sense would that make??

Let me put it to you this way. If you read it and it doesn't make sense to you, I probably don't mean it the way you're reading it.

It made absolutely no sense even though the way it was written seemed to directly say that. I saw it a few days ago and ignored it as it made no sense at all and thought you must have made a mistake :D.

Today saw vfbstuttgartfan talking about gomez and decided to ask you anyway

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

[QUOTE]I think that's a big exaggeration. Of course with you being from that area, it's more important to you than people living anywhere else.

As a person who enjoys football as a whole, I have to say that it doesn't especially peak my interest when Stuttgart and KSC play.

I'll be more interested in Koln v. Leverkusen and Gladbach against the both of them this season.

That's fair enough, and, as I said before, it is just my opinion, and people tend to disagree on these topics. I'd still consider VfB-KSC to be significantly bigger to, say, Koeln-Leverkusen.

Is Stuttgart v. Kaiserslautern considered a "derby" to you guys??

I know most of the FCK fans think it is. How do you guys feel about it??

I never really considered it a derby at all to be honest, i'm surprised FCK would feel otherwise.



That, I partially agree with. It's definitely one of the biggest derbies in "southern" Germany, but it doesn't come close to Bayern v. 1860. I'd put Stuttgart v. KSC along the same lines of Bayern v. 1. FC Nuernberg.


Here's where it gets complicated... i'd argue that VfB-Bayern is at roughly the same level as FCN-Bayern, and with VfB-KSC being a bigger derby than VfB-Bayern, I would therefore argue VfB-KSC would be at least the second biggest derby in the South, probably after the Munich derby. But this just an alternative way of looking at it.


Until Hoffenheim's rise, they both pretty much only had Freiburg to deal with from that region.

Now that Hoffenheim is there, what do you think that will do to the Stuttgart v. KSC thing? Will it bring you guys more "together" now that you both will "hate" Hoffenheim?

It's good you point this out, it'll be interesting to see how this develops. I don't really believe Hoffenheim will ever be able to build a significant base, at least not for a good few years. Maybe in 5 years, but for now I wouldn't see them as a 'threat' so to speak. If the money keeps coming in, they definitely will be in the long run though.

But talk of VfB and KSC fans 'coming together'...that wouldn't work. ;)

Or will it make a difference that many of Hoffenheim's supporters also like VfB?

And does Hoffenheim's rise make Freiburg even more irrelevant now??

Or will Freiburg remain hated with VfB fans as long as they have that former Kickers coach? ;)


I wouldn't say Freiburg are irrelevant as they remain the region's 3rd most popular side. But yeah, they'll never be at VfB's or KSC's level.

As for Dutt ( :D ) I don't particularly dislike him at all, he always seemed like a nice guy, Heldt praised him a lot after Kickers eliminated HSV in the Pokal 2 years ago. But whether he's also a competent manager, I don't know yet. He's never blown me away. But I don't dislike him.

Are you thinking KSC's time away calmed the rivalry some??

Nah, if anything it fired it up even more. We'll see whether this continues.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

The club announced that Pizarro is not an issue and was nothing more than a random rumour.

Also, Stuttgarter Zeitung reporting that it seems ever more likely Gomez will go to Bayern. Doesn't sound optimistic. :(

[footyfan1]

That's fair enough, and, as I said before, it is just my opinion, and people tend to disagree on these topics. I'd still consider VfB-KSC to be significantly bigger to, say, Koeln-Leverkusen.

As you said, very subjective and people do tend to think the rivalries from their own region are "bigger" than others.



I never really considered it (Stuttgart v Kaiserslautern) a derby at all to be honest, i'm surprised FCK would feel otherwise.

Not a "local" derby, but a "regional" (South v. Southwest) one. There are different types of "derbies". And remember, for awhile, you two were the only 1. BL teams in that entire area.


Here's where it gets complicated... i'd argue that VfB-Bayern is at roughly the same level as FCN-Bayern, and with VfB-KSC being a bigger derby than VfB-Bayern, I would therefore argue VfB-KSC would be at least the second biggest derby in the South, probably after the Munich derby. But this just an alternative way of looking at it.

I'd actually say that as battles go, VfB v. Bayern is bigger than Bayern v. FCN.

However, I don't see where VfB v. KSC is "bigger" than VfB v. Bayern. Maybe it is more intense to you because of the "local" aspect, but I can't see where it is "bigger."

See, if you said it's the second biggest "local derby" in the south, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you and when I think of it more, I know others who would vehemently argue that is not true.

To say VfB v. KSC is the second biggest "derby" in the south I don't think is true. There are a couple of other derbies that would have decent arguments.

Right now, it's a second league derby, but I'd argue that 1860 v. Augsburg is "bigger." It sells out the Allianz Arena and there is a true hatred between the clubs.

The most attended football match in Munich Olympiastadion history?

No, it's not a Bayern match or a German National Team match.

1860 v. FC Augsburg, 15 August 1973. Over 90,000 for that Derby.

This past season the Allianz Arena sold out within hours of tickets going on sale and according to 1860 ticket staff, with the calls and orders they had, they could have easily sold 100,000 tickets.

Someone from Franken, where I lived for over 10 years, would throw up FCN v. Greuther Fuerth. Even though it will be played again this year in the 2nd Bundesliga, I don't think that one has been played enough recently to really be considered, but I'll tell you that is also one freakin' crazy "local derby." I'd definitely put that one up against VfB v. KSC.

I guess the question is this. Have I been to a VfB v. KSC match to know what I'm talking about?

That answer is yes. Twice in Karlsruhe. I saw Stuttgart win back in 95 or 96 2-1. I think Bobic scored the first goal of the match for Stuttgart and I remember Haessler converting a consolation goal for KSC from a penalty after VfB was already up 2-0. Don't remember what the penalty was for. If you asked me who scored the second for VfB, I'd be dumbfounded. It wasn't a big "VfB name....."

I saw Karlsruhe win on the penultimate Saturday of the 97/98 season. KSC won 4-2. Don't remember goal-scorers for that one as we (my friends from Heidelberg and I) were pretty drunk. I do remember that KSC scored the winning goals right at the end of the match though. That and one of my friends met his future wife on the very drunk train ride back to Heidelberg!

Their oldest son is named "Thomas" in honor of Icke Haessler. :D

I turned down going to Dortmund that Saturday because I figured they would lose to HSV and they did. I hated that Nevio Scala season.

I don't think those two matches make me an "expert", but I'm not just running my mouth without having seen VfB v. KSC derbies either.

I'm not saying I'm right either. I respect your opinion.

Basically, it all goes back to this all being subjective and a person's point of view very definitely being swayed by where he has lived. Not just you, but in what I brought up too.



It's good you point this out, it'll be interesting to see how this develops. I don't really believe Hoffenheim will ever be able to build a significant base, at least not for a good few years. Maybe in 5 years, but for now I wouldn't see them as a 'threat' so to speak. If the money keeps coming in, they definitely will be in the long run though.

I think Hoffenheim will eventually snare fans in that area who adopted teams in other places and believe it or not if Kaiserslautern doesn't get their s#it together soon, I think Hoffenheim will steal some fans from that region too. At least quite a few in that area from Speyer to Neustadt a.d. Weinstrasse.

I think they'll also get people who live in the Heidelberg/Mannheim areas who "support" out of the area teams to come out to their matches.

They'll get a lot of the younger people too. Those are the ones who I feel will grow into their "fanbase", so like you said, yeah, about five years or so.


But talk of VfB and KSC fans 'coming together'...that wouldn't work. ;)

Yeah, I guess that's like someone asking me if BVB and Schalke would ever come together against a common enemy.

If Bayern didn't do that, no one ever will! LOL!!

Sorry! Please forgive my lack of thought in asking that question!





I wouldn't say Freiburg are irrelevant as they remain the region's 3rd most popular side. But yeah, they'll never be at VfB's or KSC's level.

See, I'm thinking nationally, not locally. You have the strong connection to that area, so they do matter to you. In the realm of someone looking at derbies from a where they stand on the "national" level point of view, SCF really doesn't matter.


As for Dutt ( :D ) I don't particularly dislike him at all, he always seemed like a nice guy, Heldt praised him a lot after Kickers eliminated HSV in the Pokal 2 years ago. But whether he's also a competent manager, I don't know yet. He's never blown me away. But I don't dislike him.

I was kidding with my comment, but since we're giving opinions, I think this guy is a pretty competent manager, but isn't in the best situation there at Freiburg.

SCF has survived so long on finding the best youth they can find and nurturing them (Finke's way and partially VfB's way), its not surprising that Dutt needs time to adjust to trying to make a top two 2nd Bundesliga team out of young "talents" or change the way SCF does things.

However, with SCF's financial situation, he won't be able to really change the way they do things either.



Nah, if anything it (KSC being out of the 1st Bundesliga for so long) fired it (the VfB-KSC rivalry)up even more. We'll see whether this continues.

OK. I can see that too. I wonder how KSC will do with all the changes. I actually expect them to fall back into the relegation battle. I thought they'd lost too much, but if da Silva can be a leading central midfielder, I think they'll have a fighting shot, but don't expect them to do as well as they did this past season.

I think Eggimann was a bit overrated, but let's see if they can replace him. I don't think they have yet.

The kid they signed from Bayern (Celozzi) is a right back. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if they get stuck signing someone like Christian Wörns.....

I believe their season this past season was like FCN's the season before last. A season where they played above their heads, but isn't truly indicative of where they are as a club. I think they started to come back to earth near the end of last season.

But I do hope they stay around and this derby survives and thrives.

[footyfan1]

The club announced that Pizarro is not an issue and was nothing more than a random rumour.

Would probably want too much money anyhow.


Also, Stuttgarter Zeitung reporting that it seems ever more likely Gomez will go to Bayern. Doesn't sound optimistic. :(

Yes, DI or FR used that article as a basis for backing "Gomez to Bayern" rumors in the Bayern forum earlier today.

[kaiser kraut]

The new coach at Barca could really impact what happens to Gomez. It's already been confirmed that he's ready to shake up the line-up and has been quoted as looking for a #9 as his top priority this summer. Looks like Deco, Eto'o and Ronaldinho could all be on their way out, which would give them plenty of cash to take a shot at Gomez without thinking twice about it. Just because the Bayern thing is heating up doesn't mean Barca is dead.