Chivas 2004... maybe

[BhoysFC1995]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/soccer/cst-spt-soccin12.html

says he is pushing for 2004 but garber would prefer 2005. there is also a nytimes article but i can't find the link.

he mentioned also in one of the articles that it will not be houston.

[anderson]

Originally posted by BhoysFC1995
there is also a nytimes article but i can't find the link.

he mentioned also in one of the articles that it will not be houston.Here's the NYT link: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/11/sports/soccer/12SOCC.html?ex=1061265600&en=def9353b00b88bcc&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

And the snake-oil salesman's observations about Houston: JORGE VERGARA, the Mexican businessman whose Chivas club played the Major League Soccer all-star team on Aug. 2, said he could complete a deal to purchase an M.L.S. expansion team in the next 60 days. Vergara, who owns the Omnilife dietary supplement company and is also a movie producer, said he expects the team to be part of M.L.S. for the 2004 season. The league would like him to put his team in Houston, but Vergara is not interested in Texas.

``It will not be in Houston,'' he said yesterday in a telephone interview from Mexico. ``There are only 700,000 Mexicans there and the culture of Texas is completely different than California or New York, for example. The people in Houston are less passionate about soccer. And we're interested in buying a new franchise, not taking over one that already exists.''

San Diego appears to be the most likely location. ``I prefer California, because of the weather,'' Vergara said.

[houstonmls]

Originally posted by anderson
Here's the NYT link: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/11/sports/soccer/12SOCC.html?ex=1061265600&en=def9353b00b88bcc&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

And the snake-oil salesman's observations about Houston:

Sounds to me like a little toddler didn't get his way when McNair said he wouldn't speed up expansion...now he's just jealous and trying to spin the rejection.

Told you it wasn't going to happen.

[Juan Luis Guerra]

This is starting to make real sense to me.

[anderson]

Originally posted by houstonmls
Sounds to me like a little toddler didn't get his way when McNair said he wouldn't speed up expansion...now he's just jealous and trying to spin the rejection.

Told you it wasn't going to happen.McNair can take his time because he negotiated in 2001 for a right of first refusal on MLS in Reliant that runs through the end of 2005.

So as a practical matter, no one else is going to try to put an MLS team in Reliant while his right of first refusal is still in effect. Of course, no one else may want to put a team in Reliant in any event. :D

But anyway, I have no idea why he would want to rush to do an expansion deal for 2004, or even 2005 for that matter. He has all the cards in this game and there's no reason why he should play his hand so quickly.

[LiveFreeOrDie]

Originally posted by anderson


But anyway, I have no idea why he would want to rush to do an expansion deal for 2004, or even 2005 for that matter. He has all the cards in this game and there's no reason why he should play his hand so quickly.

Why would he wait?

He has the experience in running a (successful) soccer team, what benefit would he have in 2005 that he can't have in 2004?

[LiveFreeOrDie]

The start of the 2004 season is almost 1 year away as is.

If he has an agreement with MLS (MLS cashed his check) then he is probably already putting together the team and staff necessary to run a team.

[Redhammer]

"It will not be in Houston. There are only 700,000 Mexicans there and the culture of Texas is completely different than California or New York, for example. The people in Houston are less passionate about soccer. And we're interested in buying a new franchise, not taking over one that already exists."
-- Jorge Vergara, owner of Mexican club Chivas, who plans to run an expansion team in MLS as early as next season. (The New York Times)

like this quote ... sounds like they're pretty serious. where do you think it'd be?!? san diego maybe?

[anderson]

Originally posted by LiveFreeOrDie
Why would he wait?

He has the experience in running a (successful) soccer team, what benefit would he have in 2005 that he can't have in 2004?Do you mean Vergara? I can see why Vergara could go in 2004. But I don't think McNair has any incentive to go sooner rather than later.

McNair may want to wait because time should be an advantage for him in a negotiation with MLS. No one else is realistically going to do a deal to put an MLS team in Reliant before the end of 2005 (because he holds a qualified right of first refusal). So, if MLS wants to expand in 2005 or 2006 in Reliant, then they have to deal with him.

When you're in that position, you sit back and let the other side make you an offer you can't refuse. You still deal reasonably, but you can certainly take your sweet time about it.

[PeddieJV]

MLS most likely won't allow just one team (chivas) to join in, making 11 teams, in 2004.

Even if chivas is ready to field a team in 2004, they will have to wait until another expansion team is ready, which won't until be 2005 or later.

[kuhnscoot]

Originally posted by Redhammer
"The people in Houston are less passionate about soccer. And we're interested in buying a new franchise, not taking over one that already exists."
-- Jorge Vergara, owner of Mexican club Chivas, who plans to run an expansion team in MLS as early as next season. (The New York Times)



When did Houston get a team that he doesn't want to take over? Also with it only being a little under a year til the 2004 season, if they want to play then shouldn't they get a stadium deal done and soon, so that other things aren't booked, and wouldn't we have already heard something if they had gotten a stadium deal.

[firespotter]

Originally posted by LiveFreeOrDie
Why would he wait?

He has the experience in running a (successful) soccer team, what benefit would he have in 2005 that he can't have in 2004? Maybe that he would then be able to find a few more mexican nationals with US citizenship? Is there any info out there that says he wants his team to be all Mexicans? No big deal I guess... could he pull it off?
S-I = Senior International - three right?
T-I = Transitional International - 2 or 3?
DISC = Discovery Player - say 4 or 5
DEV = Developmental Player - maybe 2
GC = Green Card Holder - only one in the league now, maybe a couple more by 2004.
P-40 = Nike Project-40 - any out there born in Mexico?
Even giving him 15 players in this set-up... he'll still need a US keeper to compete.

[anderson]

[Vergara as quoted above in the NYT:]``It will not be in Houston,'' he said yesterday in a telephone interview from Mexico. ``There are only 700,000 Mexicans there and the culture of Texas is completely different than California or New York, for example. The people in Houston are less passionate about soccer. And we're interested in buying a new franchise, not taking over one that already exists.''The miracle-potion peddler may have a point in there somewhere: The growth and diversification of the "other Hispanics," or non-Mexican Hispanics, emerged as one of the major stories in the 2000 Census, and the trend continues unabated.

Between 1900 [they may have meant 1990] and 2000, the non-Mexican proportion of the state's [Texas'] Hispanic population more than doubled, from 10.3 percent to 24 percent. In Harris County [includes much of Houston], the number of Hispanics of both Mexican and non-Mexican origin both grew, but the proportion of Mexican Hispanics shrank from 80 percent to less than 73 percent, a drop mirrored across the area.

...

Mexican-origin Hispanics still dominate in Texas. But especially in the immigrant gateway urban centers such as Houston and Dallas, the growing Latino diversity promises dramatic changes for the nation's largest and fastest-growing minority.

...

In Houston, where Hispanics have supplanted Anglos as the largest ethnic group, the proportion of non-Mexican Hispanics jumped from 20.4 percent in 1990 to nearly 28 percent in 2000. In Austin, the percent of non-Mexican Hispanics nearly doubled during the last decade, to 23.3 percent from 12.7 percent; in Dallas, it grew to 17 percent from 12 percent.

"What's significant is that Hispanics have been in the 90 percent of Mexican origin for decades, and now we're seeing an abrupt shift and increasing diversification," said state demographer Steve Murdock of Texas A&M University. "These newcomers may have much more in common with other new immigrants than with Hispanics who have been here for generations."

Shift seen in Hispanic growth: New chamber president embraces a cross section of Latin Americans (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2051064), Houston Chronicle.

[superdave]

Originally posted by firespotter
Maybe that he would then be able to find a few more mexican nationals with US citizenship? Is there any info out there that says he wants his team to be all Mexicans? No big deal I guess... could he pull it off?
S-I = Senior International - three right?
T-I = Transitional International - 2 or 3?
DISC = Discovery Player - say 4 or 5
DEV = Developmental Player - maybe 2
GC = Green Card Holder - only one in the league now, maybe a couple more by 2004.
P-40 = Nike Project-40 - any out there born in Mexico?
Even giving him 15 players in this set-up... he'll still need a US keeper to compete.
I think that DISC is how a player is acquired, NOT how he is classified in the league. Same with P-40s. A P-40 who isn't a green card holder or American citizen (is that even possible???) would count as a TI. A DISC would count as an SI.

[firespotter]

Originally posted by superdave
I think that DISC is how a player is acquired, NOT how he is classified in the league. Same with P-40s. A P-40 who isn't a green card holder or American citizen (is that even possible???) would count as a TI. A DISC would count as an SI. The MLS site has the list at the bottom of each team roster as a classification key for the 'status' of each player.
A P-40 has to have gone thru the USSF system (ODP) but not be an American citizen. Pretty sure Dema Kovalenko was drafted as a P-40... now he's GC. It would appear that if they were born in a different country they don't count immediatly as a TI.
Ah, who knows... we're probably going to see another MLS rule change in order to get Chivas money in the league, eh?

[superdave]

Originally posted by firespotter
A P-40 has to have gone thru the USSF system (ODP) but not be an American citizen.
Um, that's wrong. Tim Howard was P-40. So was Bobby Convey. And Demarcus Beasley.

[Minnman]

http://www.mlsnet.com/about/regulations/

"FULL ROSTERS
Each team’s full roster will consist of a maximum of 18 “senior” players, plus a maximum of six (6) roster-protected players. The home team may dress a total of 20 players for an MLS regular season game. The visiting team may dress a total of 16 players for an MLS regular season game. Three substitutions plus one goalkeeper may be used in any regular season game.

INTERNATIONAL PLAYER/ROSTER LIMITATIONS
MLS teams are allowed a maximum of three (3) international players on their active roster. U.S. Soccer, the sport’s governing body in the United States, has established that a player is considered an international unless he meets the following criteria:

• The player is a United States citizen
• The player is in the United States as a resident alien (green card) or under asylum protection, regardless of eligibility to play for the U.S. National Team.

In accordance with United States Immigration and Naturalization laws, MLS shall not limit or restrict the number of lawful permanent or temporary residents, asylees or refugees permitted to play on any team's active roster. Green card holders therefore count as domestic, and not international, players. For the purposes of determining whether a player is an international player, his eligibility to represent the U.S. National Team is irrelevant.

For the 2003 season, MLS will allow up to 20 league-wide places for young international players, who need not be distributed equally among all MLS teams. These youth international players will be considered Transitional Internationals.

Each MLS team will be able to carry six roster-protected players, with the six comprised of any combination of Nike Project-40 and developmental players."

and

"2003 MLS PLAYER STATUS DEFINITIONS

Rosters
For the 2003 season MLS Rosters will include 24 players, six of which must be signed to either a Nike Project-40 or Developmental contract. Up to three Senior Internationals can occupy one of the 18 remaining roster positions.

Nike Project-40 Players

Nike Project-40 players are developmental players selected by teams through the SuperDraft or, if signed after the SuperDraft, through the lottery system. Nike Project-40 Players do not count against a team’s salary budget until graduation from the program. Players signed to Nike Project-40 Contracts receive an educational stipend.

Player Classification

Senior Internationals: Any non-green card holding foreign player 25 years of age or older (during the season under consideration) will be considered a Senior International (Some international players younger than 25 can be considered Senior Internationals due to their contract structure).

Transitional Internationals: Any young international player will count as a Transitional International until the beginning of the year in which they are due to reach the age of 25, at which time they will be re-classified as a Senior International.

Developmental Players (domestic or international): Each team will have six Developmental Players on its roster. The contracts for these players will not count against a team’s salary budget. In addition to Nike Project-40 signees, a team’s roster-protected players can only include those 23 years of age or younger during the season in question.

Means of Player Acquisition

Allocated Players
These players are allocated to teams through the League office. Each year, additional allocations are decided upon and made by the League’s Competition Committee and based upon players lost and the teams’ on-field records in the previous year. Allocated player spots may be traded.

Drafted Players
These are players drafted by teams in the annual MLS SuperDraft. These players include college players, Nike Project-40 players and Youth Internationals, among others. The draft order is based upon the teams’ on-field records during the previous year. Drafted players and draft picks may be traded with league approval.

Discovery Players
A team may request that the league sign a U.S. or international player who is not currently under contract to MLS and assign the player to the requesting team. A team may add no more than two senior roster Discovery players by request in any calendar year, and shall have no more than four Discovery players on its senior roster at any time. Teams may trade Discovery players but may not trade Discovery player “spots.”

Teams will have unlimited discovery opportunities for Developmental players."

Assuming that MLS Chivas needs to fit into this structural set up, the only way that the team would have any real Mexican flavor would be if all three SIs are Mexican, there are some Mexican players out there who happen to be Green Card holders, and the team gets some of those limited TI spots (which, I assume would jump to 22 if MLS adds one team) and uses them to signs young Mexican players.

Frankly, I seriously doubt that, under these rules, Chivas MLS would have an ethnic mix all that much different from ay other MLS side.

OR the league could just jettison it's structure in order to accomodate a new investor.

Somehow, I just don't think that's going to happen. And after reading Wagman's latest (linked to in another thread) I, once again, am douting all those rosy expansion predictions. Expansion needs to be about new investors and appropriate stadia in new markets. Vergara, it seems to me, has other things on his mind. I wonder how deeply commited he'd be to MLS if, say, 10-12,000 show up regularly to watch his team in Qualcom Stadium. I mean, you and I know there's a HUGE difference between on-off soccer events in the US (which can draw very large crowds) and the MLS regular season (which draws ... er, somewhat more modest crowds). I wonder if Vergara really understands that. I understand that they guy's not stupid. But it gives me pause when he states that his focus is on San Diego of the Mexican population and the weather. For example, has he ever mentioned his intent to provide a SSS? I mean, MLS has tried the renter in an NFL stadium business plan before. It doesn't work very well.

[firespotter]

Originally posted by superdave
Um, that's wrong. Tim Howard was P-40. So was Bobby Convey. And Demarcus Beasley. A P-40 has to have gone thru the USSF system (ODP) but not necessairly be an American citizen.
How's that...

[firespotter]

Originally posted by Minnman
http://www.mlsnet.com/about/regulations/

"FULL ROSTERS....

Somehow, I just don't think that's going to happen. And after reading Wagman's latest (linked to in another thread) I, once again, am douting all those rosy expansion predictions. Expansion needs to be about new investors and appropriate stadia in new markets. Vergara, it seems to me, has other things on his mind. I wonder how deeply commited he'd be to MLS if, say, 10-12,000 show up regularly to watch his team in Qualcom Stadium. I mean, you and I know there's a HUGE difference between on-off soccer events in the US (which can draw very large crowds) and the MLS regular season (which draws ... er, somewhat more modest crowds). I wonder if Vergara really understands that. I understand that they guy's not stupid. But it gives me pause when he states that his focus is on San Diego of the Mexican population and the weather. For example, has he ever mentioned his intent to provide a SSS? I mean, MLS has tried the renter in an NFL stadium business plan before. It doesn't work very well. Thanks Minnman... I just thought the idea was worth floating. I agree with your take on expansion... but it could be that under NAFTA there is some sort of subsudized program for foreign investors for renting ballparks... or maybe Vergara has a deal negotiated with Arnold (the Terminator - for Govenor), eh?

[efernandez9]

is a reality!

No longer a rumor..... Now lets get our Own forum for that.


will you support that?