Canada (MLS Expansion or Canadian League) Part 2

[TFCTrent]

As a new member of Big Soccer, I don't believe Toronto FC is a "new fad" situation as has been questioned here. The way MLSE (Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment) approached launching Toronto FC, it would be foolish for anyone to openly question it. The fact that both Toronto and Canadian national media have increased their soccer coverage speaks to this point. For any sceptics out there who continue to question this, I suggest reading columns from:

John Molinaro on http://www.cbc.ca
informative blogs from Gerry Dobson on http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/
The Globe and Mail newspaper's "On Soccer" column with Ben Knight at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/soccerblog

If you're looking for Canadian audio feeds, tune in to:

"The Footy Show" podcast on http://www.thescore.ca/blogs/ with James Sherman and others
A live broadcast of "Ultimate Soccer" with Soccer Steve on Saturdays from 11 AM-2 PM MT on http://www.cfrn.com out of Edmonton,
“The Soccer Show” with CBC soccer comentator Nigel Reed (a past BBC soccer commentator also) and past NASL champion player and Canadian national star Bobby Iarusci on Toronto's The Fan 590 (with podcast as well) on Thursday evenings, usually at 9 PM ET at http://www.fan590.com.

These listed sources will give any sceptics and interested observers an insight on what has been happening in the Canadian soccer scene and the increased momentum that has been generated again for soccer in Canada.

Regarding further MLS expansion into Canada, Vancouver and Montreal have shown in the NASL days that they could draw large crowds without any problems, and that was in days before sports media took a larger interest in soccer in both Canada and the United States. The fact that Montreal is building a stadium that can be made MLS ready and that Vancouver is working towards a stadium of the same standards is nothing but positive for Canadian soccer as it helps build the infrastructure to develop this sport in Canada. Also with the advent of the CONCACAF Champions League and the beginnings of a Canada Open Cup competition between Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver for the one spot Canada has been given by CONCACAF for this new Champions League, it will not be a question of "if" but "when" these cities move up from USL-1 to MLS.

From my readings of this board, many of the other points I would like to make in support of Canadian MLS expansion have already been pointed out clearly and have been noted by those before me. TIme may be a factor in seeing how support solidifies for Toronto FC, but as I and others have described, there are too many other positive factors in the mix to see it weaken. For those who may still doubt, try and buy a ticket to a Toronto FC game before they sell out; before the season starts!!

[Macksam]

How do you know that? For all we know this could just be the cool current trend and as soon as the novelty wears off Toronto could lead the league in empty seats.

You obviously don't know Toronto. I live in the area and can tell you that it's not a novelty that's not going to wear off like some of you have been claiming reidculously. It bet my left testicle on it.

[art]

If you'd prefer to see US cities get teams just because they are US cities then there isn't really any argument that can be advanced to make you change your mind.

Shocker: a canuck who cant wrap his brain around the fact that MLS is an american league not a canadian one.

I know, I know...I've never seen it before either!

[art]

You obviously don't know Toronto. I live in the area and can tell you that it's not a novelty that's not going to wear off like some of you have been claiming reidculously. It bet my left testicle on it.

hope you're right then...

[MNAFETSC]

You obviously don't know Toronto. I live in the area and can tell you that it's not a novelty that's not going to wear off like some of you have been claiming reidculously. It bet my left testicle on it.

Well find out in a couple of years I guess. But if Im right ill expect that nut overnighted.

[Macksam]

Well find out in a couple of years I guess. But if Im right ill expect that nut overnighted.

Wait, you're actually taking a stance and saying the support willl dwindle?

[crazypete13]

we can't compare future expansion teams to teams already in the league, those teams entered under completely different circumstances. the competition for expansion slots is much higher, the standards are higher, and the league as a whole is on much more solid ground. we can only compare potential cities to each other to have a valid idea of what moves might be best.


Interesting point here - lets look at the flipside of this. Looking at those franchises that are below the level set for expansion at what point do investors say - I'm paying $30 million plus to join a league that contains this dead weight - no thanks.

As MLS is a single entity at what point do other franchises begin saying - shape up or else. Methinks San Jose will not be the last team to move, as at some point the profitable portion of MLS is going to force the money losers (or even less profitable teams) to change their practices or sell to more willing investors in market X.

[MNAFETSC]

Wait, you're actually taking a stance and saying the support willl dwindle?

No, all Im saying it once the novelty wears off of having a pro soccer team lets see if TFC is still the light on the hill.

[Macksam]

No, all Im saying it once the novelty wears off of having a pro soccer team lets see if TFC is still the light on the hill.

Fair enough. In all honesty, I think Philadelphia can match what TFC did in their first year since they seem to have the same formula. Starting off in a SSS is crucial for a winning formula.

[triplet1]

Interesting point here - lets look at the flipside of this. Looking at those franchises that are below the level set for expansion at what point do investors say - I'm paying $30 million plus to join a league that contains this dead weight - no thanks.

As MLS is a single entity at what point do other franchises begin saying - shape up or else. Methinks San Jose will not be the last team to move, as at some point the profitable portion of MLS is going to force the money losers (or even less profitable teams) to change their practices or sell to more willing investors in market X.

Indeed, every other professional league that has lasted has gone through this transition.

[Kingston]

Shocker: a canuck who cant wrap his brain around the fact that MLS is an american league not a canadian one.

I know, I know...I've never seen it before either!

It's not that I can't wrap my head around it; I understand the situation. It's just that trip76 had asked for my reasons why Vancouver and Montreal might be better expansion choices than a number of US sites. What I said, and what I repeat here, is that there isn't a rock solid reason for preferring one expansion site (Canadian or US) over any other. A person who feels strongly that another site is better will always be able to give counter reasons to support their choice. The truth is that there are a number of good sites out there. I, personally, feel that Vancouver and Montreal are among the very best. If, however, a person feels that US sites should be given priority just because they are US sites then there is no rock solid argument that would change that person's mind. (It also doesn't mean that that person is necessarily wrong in holding the pro-US belief, either. I just think that if MLS wants the best sites it can get it would be silly to ignore two of them just because they are Canadian, especially since the Canada barrier has already been broken.)

[DCUdiplomat96]

Canada: America's Wales.

For the record, I am a proud American who would prefer to see teams in Montreal and Vancouver before Tulsa and Phoenix.

i agree plus vancouver and montreal are bigger markets.

[Ball in the Face]

I hope Montreal get an MLS team, aswell as Vancouver. Cause I think that it would be great for Canadian teams to come in the MLS along with Toronto, and a Montreal/Toronto rivalry would be super.

[Trident]

I forget who said MTL has the opportunity to outdraw some existing markets, I believe we already outdraw two of them(SJ and Kansas).

[TopDogg]

I forget who said MTL has the opportunity to outdraw some existing markets, I believe we already outdraw two of them(SJ and Kansas).
Not hard to outdraw a team that hasn't kicked a ball since 2005. :D

[Nazzer]

When the Canadian Major Indoor Soccer League started in 2007 they vision statement seemed to imply that at some point they were going to try and grow into a Canadian outdoor soccer league, has anyone heard anything about that progressing further?

[Gaboo]

I would consider me to be a neutral follower of the whole MLS-expansion -topic. In my opinion, Philadelphia is definitely the best location to launch a new franchise...after them I would rank:

1) Montreal
2) St. Louis
3) Vancouver
4)...

but that´s just the opinion of a neutral follower who is far away!

I hope, they "promote" the Impact and Whitecaps and don´t field new teams, if it comes to that!

[trip76]

For the record, I am a proud American who would prefer to see teams in Montreal and Vancouver before Tulsa and Phoenix.

i agree, but i don't see that as the options. the options are more likely montreal and vancouver over miami, atlanta, nyc, and st louis.

I forget who said MTL has the opportunity to outdraw some existing markets, I believe we already outdraw two of them(SJ and Kansas).

Team..G......Total....Avg 2007

NER...15....251,812....16,787
COL...15....221,229....14,749
CHI...15....247,356....16,490
LAG...15....363,782....24,252
DCU...15....314,506....20,967
COL...15....228,451....15,230
NYR...15....247,948....16,530
KCW...15....173,784....11,586
FCD...15....227,182....15,145
TFC...15....301,947....20,130
RSL...15....239,39.....15,960
HOU...15....238,240....15,883
CHV...15....214,578....14,305

MLS..195..3,270,210....16,770

montreal has about 11K right? that would put it in contention for worst attendance in the league, with the next lowest about 27% higher. also, MLS attendance has been on a nice upwards trend that will hopefully continue next year:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/triplehelix/Junk/chart.jpg

1) Being an expansion team and the best supported club in MLS is minor to you?

2) I don't think Vancouver and Montreal are the soccer meccas of the world. With that in mind, they have the potential to outperform US cities just as US cities have the potential to outperform them. This question cannot be reaonably answered yet.

3) Added in as team 23 and 24? As soon as stadiums are finalized, it's more or less a done deal and rightfully so. I mean, if Vancouver gets their stadium done and is all set to pay the expansion fee, Don Garber isn't going to go "We have to get a team in Detroit first before we go to Vancouver...even if they don't have a stadium ready or a wealthy owernship group. Sorry."

1. except they aren't. not to take away at all from the great support they do have, but we'll only know 5-10 years in what kind of stamina that support has.

2. yet these two potential additional canadian sides are often touted as guaranteed blockbusters.

3. ask st louis if getting a stadium guarantees a team.

[trip76]

We could assess the degree of impact in many ways. I'm not claiming that TFC is the most important factor in driving MLS upward. I will say that they are the only sell out team (including, interestingly, LA) and are brining up the revenue average rather than bringing it down.

yes they sell out, meaning that their attendance is maxed out unless they expand the stadium, which is a definite possibility, but not soon. the two teams that beat TFC on attendance last year, have more seats to fill as it stands now, and the next teir down certainly has room to catch up.

I also think Seattle will do well. I acknowledge that USL isn't necessarily indicative of MLS success but I'd have to say it shows good potential. Poor USL showing doesn't imply poor MLS showing (i.e. Toronto) but decent USL showing suggests good MLS showing (i.e. Seattle so far).

i discount USL attendance wholesale. either its indicative or its not, and i don't feel it is.

I wasn't meaning to take a shot at any existing teams. They've gone through their struggles and successes. I was just pointing out that Vancouver and Montreal would likely outdraw some existing markets.

didn't think you were, but it doesn't make sense to me to pick the smallest market to compare a team too, unless its lower tier attendance that team aspires too, or what you think MLS is looking for.

This is really impossible to answer. I'm not trying to dodge the question, but what objective criteria could I use to support any choices I make? In either case (the Canadian or American expansion city) everything would be subjective. I could say, for example, that Montreal already draws 11 000 per game at the USL level, has a soccer specific stadium under construction, and has a rich owner. Vancouver likewise, draws 5000 or more at the USL level, would already have a shovel in the ground for a beautiful stadium if the local city council would get their act together, and has a billionaire owner.

Some commonly mooted US sites, like St. Louis, Cleveland, Phoenix, or Philly lack one or all of these attributes.

philly has everything in place and the official announcement of them getting a team is imminent. i think they will do extremely well, is a larger market, so has more potential upside.

the only other city you listed that has a realistic shot is st louis, and i think at the very very least they could and would match anything mont or van could/would bring to the table. its a soccer mad city, with tons of soccer history, and i believe there's every chance it would bring more to the table.

And this is what it really comes down to. If you'd prefer to see US cities get teams just because they are US cities then there isn't really any argument that can be advanced to make you change your mind. The only objective way to go about it would be to give both, say, Vancouver and (insert US site here) teams, wait five years, and then say, look, it worked out better in Vancouver (or the US site).

its not just because they are US cities, its what that means. more jobs for US players, each MLS team will have a youth academy so better and wider ranged development of US players, more US tv sets tuned into MLS, bumping up the ratings bringing all the financial benifts higher ratings do (more money), ect.

[Bonettirulz]

wow, another canadian taking issue with americans preferring US based expansion. (((((shocker)))))

i think canada is a great country, and many canadian's are great people, but i've asked before, and i'll ask again, because nobody has given me a real answer, why is canada's potential inability to support there own league, in the least bit our problem?
Come on, Trip... no-one has given you an answer? Read the threads, will you?

Nothing to do with Canada is "your problem".

MLS expanded to Toronto because it was the best market available (in MLS' opinion). "YOU" don't have to resolve any issues related to Canadian soccer. If MLS chooses to place future teams in Canada, it will be because it feels the available market(s) here are better than any available south of the 49th.

MLS is no longer an American League; it ceased to be an American league the moment it accepted an application for membership from TFC. Get over it.

Do not try and make this a "Oh, you Canadians are prevailing on us to help you out argument". It has nothing to do with obligation and everything to do with strength of market.
MLS chose to accept TFC. If you have a problem with that, I'd suggest emailling Garber about it. You can prefer US based teams if you choose (and we all have our own preferences on where teams should or shouldn't go), but suggesting that teams should only be selected from the US for what is now a North American league is just foolishness.

MLS is a north american league. Your national championship isn't (and I would argue never has been) the MLS cup, it's the US open cup.

Why do you feel like Canadian fans are "expecting" anything from you? MLS can and will make it's own judgements about where to expand/relocate in future. Suggesting this issue is an "encumbrance" issue is nothing but folly.