Donovan-Roles-Strengths-Weaknesses

[rollo]

http://http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=660179
This thread is to look at the specific strengths/weaknesses and roles that Landon plays. I will copy some great posts from the concept thread above as a guideline to everyone.

What are the SPECIFIC strengths and weaknesses of the players in the pool. This means NOT just saying Dempsey is creative or good on the dribble, but more specifically under what conditions (part of the field, kind of pressure, kind of team mates, specific situations) does Dempsey do specifically what to help the team? What are his specific weaknesses?

From JWitness:
Here's a sketch of what a post in the Dempsey thread might look like (this is just for the purpose of showing how this approach might work):

1. Summary of His Game (strengths and weaknesses). Quick, but not extremely fast. More defensive bite than you think. Aggressive in the air, willing to sacrifice his body in the box. Good vision going forward, but maybe not the most aware player in a crowd...

2. Positions.

a. Wide right in a 4-4-2.
i. what he brings to the offensive side...
ii. how he would handle defensive responsibilities...
iii. why the team needs his skills deployed in this capacity... for instance, is he the best that we have for the role? does the team need his skill on the ball in this area? is he the best crosser?...
iv. what we lose in other areas of the field by having him here (and how we might compensate)...
v. etc...

b. Second forward in a 4-4-2...

[3. anything else?]

...desire to really drill down on the specific strengths and weaknesses of the players. whatever approach we take, i think that we should try to discuss those strengths and weaknesses in the context of the positions that we see (or don't see) as being right for a particular player. the bracketed point 3 ("[3. anything else?]") in my previous post could be used for discussing the positions that a given player should not play due to the profile of his strengths and weaknesses.

for instance, you could describe bradley as a player who has difficulty pressing the ball and generally keeping up with smaller, quicker central midfielders (like the ones that every team in CONCACAF seems to have). therefore, you might argue that he shouldn't be in the engine room against teams like that and should be pushed up into a more attacking role, like the position that he tends to play in holland. it would be really interesting to watch the upcoming friendlies to see if analyses like this hold up, since a lot of our thoughts will be tested in these matches.

if we talk about strengths and weaknesses and positions that we think are good and bad for a given player, we will be guaranteed to have something to talk about after the matches because without a doubt players some players will be played in the "correct" positions and others will be played in the "wrong" ones. will i have to eat my hat if bradley gets played as a deep-lying midfielder and is cesc's worst nightmare in the spain game? will "tedfromberkley" be triumphant after demanding that donovan be played as a forward and we all watch him bang in a goal and grab and assist in a game where he's paired with altidore up top. could be fun, no?
ENDQUOTE

Thats the idea, lets have fun!!!

[Kevin8833]

The wonderful thing about Donovan is his versatlilty, he really can be the most influential player and can often win games single handedly example the Ecuador friendly, but then he has a tendancy to dissapear in important games, that is why I think he is probably the trickiest situation here, Donovan is far and away the most productive and established player on this team leading the team in goals scored throughout US history his stats speak for themselves, although he has disspared in some important games his many performances against Mexico, his hat-trick against Ecuador and all of the 2002 World Cup are proof of what he can bring to our team, and not only plays with great skill he possess speed and athleticism but also reads the game very well, plays with poise and experiance, also he really knows how to dictate the pace of the game, deciding when to get forward and attack or hold possession and play the simple pass, etc. In my opinion reguardless of formation I think it is fairly obvious he is best as a SS or a wide midfield position, from the SS position he brings a tremendous goal scoring rate, gets players involved and is lethal when given open space, and he combines excellently off of target forwards such as Ching and Mcbride(Altidore could be next), but with his lack of size and no extreme technical ability or flair with the ball he has touble against the elite teams from this position at times and can be marked out of the game. From the wide midfield position we improve a gaping hole first of all, and get a class player who really knows how to control tempo, maintains possesion well, can get back and defend, combines excellently down the flanks with fullbacks and is a good crosser of the ball, he also can make runs cutting in and attack towards goal, and can switch flanks to create mismatches throughout the game, the only thing that Donovan doesn't bring from a wide position is the willingness to go at people one vs one often which I would like to see more of, I think he has the ability to do it though so it is just him having the confidence to do so, although most people don't seem to agree I think he is best from a wide position in midfield, but he is also very effective as a SS, but adding in the fact he can change in game with many of our other SS options that could be irrelevant.

Verdict:
Use Donovan on either flank or as a SS changing positions with players and playing all three positions throughout the game to create mismatches and find where in any given game he will have the biggest influence.

[ussoccerFan12358]

Donovan, has speed to the point where it is an advantage on the int'l level, very good passer from most anywhere, and combines well with most of the quality attacking players in our pool.

I agree with what'shisface^ in that LD's best for us as a RW. He fills a major hole better than anyone thus far and can switch if necessary through the course of a game with the withdrawn forward. (Dempsey or Adu)

I don't like him in central midfield much as it means we are essentially playing a diamond and leaving the RW in mucho danger. We already have talent there that will progress our team with Donovan playing on the right.

[Ghost]

We can sit here and talk about his skill set all day, but until he doesn't wilt at the first hard tackle, it's not going to matter in a big game.

[russ]

Can be taken out of a match by physical presure.

A deficiency on the wing is serving as a support to the fullback.He's not as good at it as our LW players.

[DaPrince84]

We can sit here and talk about his skill set all day, but until he doesn't wilt at the first hard tackle, it's not going to matter in a big game.
pretty much

[ussoccerFan12358]

Can be taken out of a match by physical presure.

A deficiency on the wing is serving as a support to the fullback.He's not as good at it as our LW players.

True true, but it's my belief that his speed allows him to compensate for his general lack of defensive skill. However, the chemistry needs to improve within the team to have consistent cover for Dolo when he overlaps with Donovan; that's another thread maybe.

[FakeFlopper]

pretty much

Most of our team seems to be taken out of the game by physical pressure, look at the Ghana game. Literally, look at Reyna and Dolo in the Sweden or Czech game ( does well against Germany though.. so go figure ). Guys like Dempsey, Gooch, Carlos, Frankie and McBride are probably the best at handling those situations. That leaves a lot of guys that get taken off their game and ugly US performances.

[ussoccerFan12358]

Bradley handles physical play pretty well, as does Edu, Mastro obviously and sometimes Clark.

It will be interesting to see how some of our other young talent handles physical play.

[Maximum Optimal]

There are three points I would make about Lanny:
1) He is our best and from a statistical point of view easily our most productive offensive player
2) He is quite versatile, showing an ability to fit in well at forward, right attacking mid, attacking mid in a diamond, or central mid in a deeper-lying role (although this last part is more of a projection on my part because he hasn't been played there much)
3) Given his versatility, the position he plays in any given game depends in part on who is available and who is in form among the other players.

I want to elaborate on point three a little. I may be a minority on this view, but I think we need a forward with real speed, with the ability to keep defenses from compressing the field on us. There are only two forwards in our pool who can do this, EJ and Donovan. As long as EJ's international form is indifferent, I would use Donovan at forward.

I also like the overall concept of two deep-lying central mids. But one of them needs to be a more creative passer and offensive threat. Again I see only two players in the current pool who can play this role: Feilhaber and Donovan. To me the question of where to play Donovan really comes down to the form Feilhaber and EJ are showing at any given moment. Right attacking mid really should belong to Dempsey, as I discussed in the parent thread to this.

[JohnR]

I may be a minority on this view, but I think we need a forward with real speed, with the ability to keep defenses from compressing the field on us. There are only two forwards in our pool who can do this, EJ and Donovan. As long as EJ's international form is indifferent, I would use Donovan at forward.

I agree with this assessment.

The defensive scheme to beat the U.S. has been established -- compress the field by aggressively pushing up the defense and applying high pressure, because in tight spaces and under pressure, the U.S. defenders and midfielders wilt.

We need to spank those defenses with the quick ball into space, to a forward who has the wheels to make the counter work.

[deron]

Beasley's the little guy who always seems to bounce right back up and keep going after getting clobbered. Well, until he finally started getting hurt.

I wish Donovan had more of that, though.

I posted a podcast in another thread (mls News) that had a conversation between Wynalda and Balboa. It's already been filled in with an interpretation I disagree with, but Wynalda makes the accusation that Donovan really doesn't have a position. And, he thinks that's a failure of US soccer development. There seems to be a certain truth in that whatever the reason.

I think Donovan's not the only example. The US has this love affair with the playmakers, and as a result players are constantly moved away from the goal, but they're never quite midfielders. Donovan's an example of this. Mathis is as well. Even, for those who remember, Joe Max Moore went through this, and Dempsey right now seems to be in this tug of war.

While versatility is nice, we need players who are just developed to be good in one position. Instead we seem to be developing 'tweeners who aren't particularly good in any position.

[Mr Martin]

Donovan's relative Strengths: speed, quickness, combination play, short passing, mobility, fitness, scoring touch.

Donovan's relative weaknesses: Size/muscle

Donovan's indifferent or average skills: 1v1 ball handling, crosses/free kicks, defending.

To me, his skill package says "2nd forward". Someone who plays off a more physical striker, who moves about, unbalances defenses, and plays nice combinations with the striker or incoming midfielders. His speed and mobility is very valuable up top, lurking around and confusing defenders, looking for the quick counter or the quick 1-2 touch combo.

He isn't the kind of dominant physical or play-making presence you would ideally like in central midfield. He can fill in there OK against certain opponents, but he isn't ideal. I'd prefer Dempsey, Feilhaber, or ultimately even Adu (a few years older perhaps) in the play-maker central role over Donavan.

He isn't the classic take-it-to-the-end-line-and-cross winger, either. He is OK at it, but at right wing/midfield his mobility and unpredictablity are restricted, and his crossing is very plain. Plus, this will force the US's all-time best attacker to play more defense than is warranted. But given how thin the US is at right wing/midfield, he will remain an option here for a while to come.

[JohnR]

To me, his skill package says "2nd forward".

Robbie Keane, that's who he is. Robbie is bit cleverer with the dribble, Landon passes better, but 90% the same thing.

And nobody plays Robbie on the wing.

[cc-atl]

There are three points I would make about Lanny:
1) He is our best and from a statistical point of view easily our most productive offensive player
2) He is quite versatile, showing an ability to fit in well at forward, right attacking mid, attacking mid in a diamond, or central mid in a deeper-lying role (although this last part is more of a projection on my part because he hasn't been played there much)
3) Given his versatility, the position he plays in any given game depends in part on who is available and who is in form among the other players.

I want to elaborate on point three a little. I may be a minority on this view, but I think we need a forward with real speed, with the ability to keep defenses from compressing the field on us. There are only two forwards in our pool who can do this, EJ and Donovan. As long as EJ's international form is indifferent, I would use Donovan at forward.

I also like the overall concept of two deep-lying central mids. But one of them needs to be a more creative passer and offensive threat. Again I see only two players in the current pool who can play this role: Feilhaber and Donovan. To me the question of where to play Donovan really comes down to the form Feilhaber and EJ are showing at any given moment. Right attacking mid really should belong to Dempsey, as I discussed in the parent thread to this.

I agree.

I think there was a reluctance to play EJ and Donovan up front together which led to Landon moving to the wing and Dempsey moving up front.

But now with the emergence of Jozy, I would switch Dempsey and Landon. I think Landon will be a much better compliment to Jozy than he would to EJ and I think Dempsey would bring some much needed one vs one skill to the wing.

[sidefootsitter]

Robbie Keane, that's who he is. Robbie is bit cleverer with the dribble, Landon passes better, but 90% the same thing.

And nobody plays Robbie on the wing. Keane is a great finisher.

Donovan ... eh, it comes and goes with him.

[Marko72]

Donovan strengths:
1v1 man-beater. The best we have in that department, including Clint Dempsey. Dempsey can dribble three guys better than Donovan and play his way out of trouble, but Dempsey does not roast his guy and head for goal like Donovan. Hence...

The counter attack. No American citizen leads a counterattack charge like Landon Donovan, including another who's rather good in that department, DaMarcus Beasley

Good with both feet. In fact, I'd say he's roughly as good with his left as with his right for everything except crossing the ball, which he definitely does better with his right. I've seen him finish from outside the box with his left. In fact, he generally prefers cutting to his left when rounding the keeper, something I think we've all seen.

Willingness and ability to find teammates. Most often on the one-touch. Can find players in front of him as well as those level with him.

Touch in the final third. (Best of any American, possibly excluding Freddy Adu.)

Finishing. His best finishing move, rounding the keeper, is the best of any American currently. Otherwise, he's a good, not great finisher.

Fitness.

Versatility.

Work rate, willingness to chase defensively on the wing, willingness to show for the ball.

Weaknesses:

Backs off of tough, physical challenges. Does not deal well with being crowded.

Plays a lot of one-touch level balls when he receives the ball in traffic. Unwillingness to try to beat his man when he doesn't see space and play his way out of trouble a la Dempsey, even if it clearly seems the best option. (See above.)

Sometimes TOO unselfish in the final third. Donovan will often prefer to set somebody else up when he would probably have the best chance to finish. If it's not an obvious finish opportunity, Donovan would usually prefer to be the giver than the taker... except that he's one of the best "takers" we have.

Fragile confidence IMO. Landon does have a little bit of an ego (really not that much for an athlete of his stature, but still) and he clearly comes to compete, but when things go bad, he rarely fights his way out of it, but tends to back off more and more, getting less and less aggressive.

He's stronger in the upper body than we give him credit for, but at about 5'8, he's not a big man. Winning contested headers will never be his forte.

His crossing is average at best, or I should say inconsistent (not the low cross which is good, but the high cross, not so much), as is his set-piece taking.


In short, no American is better with space than Donovan. But he's not particularly good in traffic. Best use for Donovan: wherever you can find him the most space. Which depends on the way your team plays, and it depends on the way your opponent plays. There are times I'd frankly prefer to see him on the wing, even though most of you disagree. Other times, I'd prefer to use him as a withdrawn forward. Much of this will also depend on Altidore, on how his game and his confidence grows, and what sort of chemistry develops between them. Out on the wing, Donovan won't score all that many goals but he will stretch defenses, opening up a lot more opportunities for another pretty good player we have, Clint Dempsey, who is in many ways everything Donovan is not. An opportunistic finisher, a guy who can (and will, even when not advisable) hold the ball in traffic and try to play out of it, a guy who loves taking on defenders himself, a guy who seems to want people to challenge him so that he can beat 'em. (Though there are many differences between them, Clint Dempsey reminds me a lot of vintage Clint Mathis in terms of the way he liked to play the game, his approach.)

So, to "list" the roles I would prefer to see him in with the Nats:

1) A freelancing attacker with freedom to roam and find his own space

2/3) A pinched-in right winger (not the way Bob's had him play it recently), or a withdrawn forward

4) A traditional right winger

5) A left winger

6) A "10" CAM (though definitely not against big European or very physical competition)

7) Anything else, including having him deeper in central midfield, which would be a real waste of his abilities, playing to his weaknesses rather than his strengths.

[Maximum Optimal]

At the moment, it would appear that for most of us viewpoints about the appropriate roles of Donovan and Dempsey are intertwined. See this thread for several excellent posts expressing various views.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=660335&page=4

If I could summarize, it would seem that most of us (60-70%) think Donovan should be used as a second striker, with Dempsey playing right attacking mid. Most of the minority views would flipflop the two. So this is a case where the conventional wisdom here is different from the way that Bob Bradley has been using these two players.

[PVancouver]

Bruce Arena also feels Landon plays best as a second striker, but he recognizes that opinions about where to play Donovan and Dempsey are divided even among soccer elite.

[polak metro]

simple landon's strengths play well against very weak opositio n. weakness playing against quality opposition. hes very ovverrated just like david beckham he is the usa david beckham