Are there any political leanings for Bundesliga teams?

[dogface]

This may be a dumb question (I always say there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people), but do the teams in the Bundesliga have any political affiliations similar to Serie A or La Liga, such as liberal, conservative, etc. My friend, who is German, claims that I shouldn't support Bayern Munich because the Bavarian region is notoriously conservative. Is this true? Are German football fans political? I have a feeling that my good buddy Brian (a true football Renaissance man) might know the answer to this. If this is a stupid question, please ignore it or tell me that I'm stupid.
--df

[olafgb]

There are some, but you shouldn't take it too serious. Generally there are some regions for which you can name a certain political affiliation and because of that also the majority of the people going to the clubs are considered to belong to this political direction.

Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg are very conservative with the city of Munich being the exception. But the citizens of Munich are relatively soccer lazy and the vast majority supporting Bayern and 1860 is not from Munich. Whereas Bayern surely is more conservative than 1860.

Some other parts are traditional social democat areas (Lower Saxony, Bremen, Hamburg and Northrhine-Westphalia). Clubs from Lower Saxony in D1 are Hannover and Wolfsburg. HSV itself already is social democratic (which is quite left) with local rivals FC St Pauli (D2) being ultra left.

All others regions have changing governments and no certain political affiliation. But I claim that no club itself is political, it's only the fans. And also there you won't find someone supporting a team just because of the political direction (except St Pauli). Clear separation of power between politics and sports otherwise :)

[Eisern Union]

Agreed. While some fan groups may have a particular political bend, it would be a bit much to say that any clubs are overtly political (St. Pauli being the only exception I can think of).

Here in Berlin, Hertha has had a problem with right-wing hooliganism, but thanks to effort from the club that has been largely overcome.

Union Berlin has a certian non-conformist streak, and I would say that there is a noticable leftist vibe on the terraces. Hansa Rostock has a pretty bad reputation for skin head supporters, not sure how complicit the club is in that, though.

As for Bayern, there are pleanty of reasons to despise them outside of the political.

[Anthony]

During Communist days, wasn't Dynamo Berlin the Secret Police team? I know they have fallen on hard times and play deep in a Regional League now, but do they still have that stigma?

Also, there was another team that in communist days was sort of an underground, anti-communist team. Was that Union Berlin? (IIRC, the chant they started whenever an opponent was setting up a wall was something like "The Wall must fall" -- an obvious reference to the Berlin Wall.)

[BrianCappellieri]

Originally posted by dogface
I have a feeling that my good buddy Brian (a true football Renaissance man) might know the answer to this.

Unfortunately no. :)

Other than St. Pauli I know very little about German ultras politically. Like Olaf and Eisern said there is political direction of a few groups but nothing like in Italy. They'd definitely know better me in this field.

[BrianCappellieri]

Originally posted by Eisern Union
Hansa Rostock has a pretty bad reputation for skin head supporters, not sure how complicit the club is in that, though.

Most skinheads aren't racist but I'm not sure if that's the case in Germany. Did you mean neo-Nazi skins in Rostock?

Thanks

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Anthony
During Communist days, wasn't Dynamo Berlin the Secret Police team? I know they have fallen on hard times and play deep in a Regional League now, but do they still have that stigma?

Also, there was another team that in communist days was sort of an underground, anti-communist team. Was that Union Berlin? (IIRC, the chant they started whenever an opponent was setting up a wall was something like "The Wall must fall" -- an obvious reference to the Berlin Wall.)

Yes, it was Dynamo - today BFC Dynamo in the fourth division. It wasn't the police team, but the team of the whole government. It's too local for me to say whether some still think of the old times when playing against them. At least today they don't have the chance that someone determines the championship for them. IIRC they also had some problems with hooligans for a while - oddly hooliganism is no problem in Bundesliga anymore, but you mainly find it in local games (D4 and below, very seldom also in D3) in the east meanwhile.

I don't think that there was an anti-communist team in the GDR. This surely would have been shut down. In the early days after the reunion it was common in western stadiums to chant "Build the Wall" when the east team had a free kick.

Regarding Rostock I don't know. When playing St Pauli there used to be clashes between the 'fans', but probably this were violent idiots who just came for that reason and were disguised as soccer supporters. Rostock has a little bit of a racism stigma as there were the first major incidents against foreigners in the early 90s. Since then I didn't hear anything about it again and IMO it's more of a prejudice to say that the fans are politically right.

[Alex_K]

Originally posted by olafgb


Yes, it was Dynamo - today BFC Dynamo in the fourth division. It wasn't the police team, but the team of the whole government.

It was mainly the police (STASI) team. That's also what "Dynamo" stands for. (Dynamo = Police team, Vorwärts = Army team and so on). The club was controlled by the STASI (secret police) and the players were officially police men.

[Dandal]

Originally posted by olafgb

I don't think that there was an anti-communist team in the GDR. This surely would have been shut down. In the early days after the reunion it was common in western stadiums to chant "Build the Wall" when the east team had a free kick.
I might be completely wrong here, but this is the way I've heard it (from a friend who lived and worked in east Berlin both before and after 89):

Union, Dynamo's local competitor, had a partly politically motivated backing, since they simply were the team who played against the Stasi team. Chants were often directly or indirectly political. "Lieber ein verlierer sein dann ein blödes Stasi-schwein" is supposed to have been chanted when Union were playing (and losing to) Dynamo.

In the east before 1989 (as, I guess, in many other oppressed countries) football and politics was more closely related. Since large oppositional political gatherings were not possible, a football match, or any other sports event, could became a way to express your feelings. When Czechoslovakia defeated Soviet Union in hockey 1969 the celebrations in the streets of Prague was considerad political not only by the government (even if the signs carried by the celebrators had no other message than "2-1").

In reasonably free countries where you have lots of ways to express yourself football becomes less political.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Dandal


Union, Dynamo's local competitor, had a partly politically motivated backing, since they simply were the team who played against the Stasi team. Chants were often directly or indirectly political. "Lieber ein verlierer sein dann ein blödes Stasi-schwein" is supposed to have been chanted when Union were playing (and losing to) Dynamo.


I don't know as I'm not from the east, but I can't imagine that. You can be sure that anyone chanting against the system was either imprisoned or at least was put under enormous pressure.

[Texan]

I read an article in the FAZ online English version about how Bayern stood up against the Nazi's more than any other German club during the 30's. I wish I saved a copy of the article because the site is now down.

Which club should a Free Democrat, such as myself, support? ;)

[Eisern Union]

Originally posted by Dandal

Union, Dynamo's local competitor, had a partly politically motivated backing, since they simply were the team who played against the Stasi team. Chants were often directly or indirectly political. "Lieber ein verlierer sein dann ein blödes Stasi-schwein" is supposed to have been chanted when Union were playing (and losing to) Dynamo.


This is true. Supporting Union was one of the only ways that people could somewhat openly defy the Communist leadership. Even today, supporters on the Union terrasses have chants against BFC. Last year's UEFA Cup matches were played at BFC's stadium because Unions doesn't meet UEFA requirements, and more than a few Union fans did not support this decision. There are rumored to be BFC supporters somewhere in the city, but I've never seen one.

BrianCappellieri: while you are right that in the 1970s the skinhead scene grew out of the left-wing ska scene in London. I'd have to take serious issue with your claim that most skinheads today are not racist, however. I think you'll have a tough time finding anyone today that would identify themself as a skinhead and hold extreme right-wing, racist views.

[Mattbro]

Originally posted by Eisern Union


I think you'll have a tough time finding anyone today that would identify themself as a skinhead and hold extreme right-wing, racist views.

Dude, try the visitors section next time Hansa Rostock comes to the Olympic Stadium.

[Eisern Union]

Originally posted by Mattbro


Dude, try the visitors section next time Hansa Rostock comes to the Olympic Stadium.

Oops, I meant to say ... NOT hold ...

[Mattbro]

Hey Eisern Union, how come your English is so good? Are you sure you're a Kraut? ;)

[e_k1]

In Munich 1860 were traditonally the workers club having come from a working class district south of the city, ans so a lot of their fans would obviously be more left wing. Bayern on the other hand came from a very wealthy area and would be a lot more conservative even today. However as already stated the only overtly politicial club to the best of my knowledge would be St Pauli with their 'Gegen Rechts' ethos.

[Eisern Union]

Originally posted by Mattbro
Hey Eisern Union, how come your English is so good? Are you sure you're a Kraut? ;)

Guilty as charged. I'm an expat.

[domingo]

As I read the title I knew Hansa Rostock is going to be mentioned (my team).
Yes in the past they really had problems with right wing hools. And always when they played St. Pauli all the idiots from both sides ment to visit a football game (the only two in the season)!
Since the reentry (?) in bundesliga of Hansa in 95 the right wing "fans" got rare. In the last two meetings Hansa-Pauli there was no single incident! Both calmed down and stopped accusing each other of being communists or nazis (well, the majority of both sides).
--> Nazis in Hansa-Fanblocks are rare. Not more than in HSV, Hertha, H96, BvB etc. pp.

And since Hansa won yesterday against 1860:
greetings from a happy domingo! :)

[Mattbro]

Hello Happy Domingo,

I will say that I once sat next to the Hansa section in Leverkusen - must have been about 1998 - and they had probably more right-wing skinheads than any other visiting club I ever witnessed during my time at Bayer. Having said that, Hansa has a lot of fans - really great support - and even back then, probably less than 100 of them were skinheads.

[BrianCappellieri]

Originally posted by Eisern Union
I think you'll have a tough time finding anyone today that would identify themself as a skinhead and hold extreme right-wing, racist views.

You just agreed with me. I'm confused.

I don't know about the situation in Germany but the majority of people here believe if you're a skinhead that means your right-wing and racist. That's mainly because that's all you hear in the media and is just a stereotype. There are many more skinheads that are just into music and don't include politics. But like I said it might be different in Germany.