Cristiano Ronaldo or Brazilian Ronaldo

[revelationx]

It is a pity that you still do not know what type of player Hleb is.



Yet again you ignore the mitigating factors. He came from the Olympic Games and had to be thrown straight into the side because of our injury crisis in central midfield. It often involved him being used in a central midfield duo which does not suit his game as detailed by Ricardo Kaka' above.

I do know what type of player Hleb is. You seem to think that goalscoring is not a characteristic that should be considered when assessing an attacking player. This aspect of an attacking player is very important and it is a glaring weakness in Hleb. You cannot say he is not that sort of player (one that scores goals) and excuse that weakness in his game. He may be good at some aspects of the game but he is certainly weak at others. His ability to dribble is no better than say Pires was and yet Pires could also score goals from midfield. Hleb does not have this ability and it is valid to comment on it. Attacking midfielders almost always have the ability to score themselves - it is an expected attribute. When an attacking midfielder lacks this then he should be called on it. It is shameful that Hleb apologists suddenly deem the requirement to score as suddenly being absent from an attacking midfielders remit merely because it shows how poorly Hleb compares with his peers.

As for Anderson, it cannot seriously be disputed that Anderson is having a worse season than last year. It cannot be seriously disputed that Anderson has looked lost in mdfield on occasion this season. It cannot seriously by disputed that Anderson's poor form has been noted in the Man U forums on BS. It is interesting to note that those who were lauding Anderson last season have come to the conclusion that Anderson cannot play in a 4-4-2. How did these people come to the conclusion that Anderson cannot play in a 4-4-2? The answer is because his form this season in such a system has been very poor. Therefore this backs up my earlier claim that Anderson is having a much worse season than last year.

[Joelzinho]

But ultimately, the point is to win games and score goals. Messi plays in, and has a similar role to Ronaldo, which is essentially that of a goal scorer/playmaker. So why one cannot look at both Ronaldo and Messi's individual output, both in goals and assists, as well as team achievements to describe which one is currently more effective?

[phil80]

pires could not create nor had the same ball control as hleb. And no one questions the impact of ronaldo despite his underwhelming assists or xavi/van der vaart for their lack of speed or henry and his lack of heading the ball because that is not their role/strength in the team. It is really a quite simple concept: not every attacking player needs to be proficient at scoring, passing, speed, playing in the air to have an impact on the team. And i repeat he did not play attacking mid most games so how does it make sense to compare his goal scoring with attacking mids?

[cr7torossi]

revx, are you talking about the same Arsenal fans who were holding up banners proclaiming "Hleb is the new George Best" last season. There has been a lot of revisionism going on with regard to Hleb by most Arsenal fans.

As for Anderson, him and Scholes together in a 4-4-2 has been pretty disastrous for us. But, as Ricardo Kaka pointed out in a post on the last page, most central midfielders take a few years to develop completely. Gerrard was absolutely rubbish most of the times he came up against Keane and for all his reputation as a goalscoring midfielder now took close to 40 games to score his first goal and scored only once in his first 2 seasons. Anderson has shown enough, mostly in a midfield 3, to justify the hype though admittedly lots of Utd fans tend to overrate his performances.

[phil80]

But ultimately, the point is to win games and score goals. Messi plays in, and has a similar role to Ronaldo, which is essentially that of a goal scorer/playmaker. So why one cannot look at both Ronaldo and Messi's individual output, both in goals and assists, as well as team achievements to describe which one is currently more effective?
Ronaldo's role is not a playmaker... goal scorer and opening up the field of play-yes. messi has a bigger role in finding the penetrating passes and dribbling past defenders and laying it off for a striker, ronaldo role relies more on being a finisher (as well as dribbling past defenders) especially last year when rooney and tevez were not finishing as well, therefore he takes more opportunities towards goal. so there is a difference between their individual approaches on the team.

[revelationx]

pires could not create nor had the same ball control as hleb. And no one questions the impact of ronaldo despite his underwhelming assists or xavi/van der vaart for their lack of speed or henry and his lack of heading the ball because that is not their role/strength in the team. It is really a quite simple concept: not every attacking player needs to be proficient at scoring, passing, speed, playing in the air to have an impact on the team. And i repeat he did not play attacking mid most games so how does it make sense to compare his goal scoring with attacking mids?

Hleb is an attacking midfielder. He is not a defensive midfielder, a box2box player, a deep-lying playmaker. LOL at you claiming Pires could not create as well as Hleb. Shall we pose that question in the Arsenal forum?

You mentioned Xavi who scored 21 goals in the last 2 and half seasons. You mentioned Van Der Vaart who scored 36 goals in that timeframe.
Hleb got 8 goals in that timeframe. Every single attacking midfielder is assessed on many things and goalscoring is an important statistic in this assessment. Except suddenly when Hleb is involved it becomes a non-issue. I say that is bogus and unacceptable. Face it, Hleb has a glaring weakness in that department, attempts to dress it up are simply desperate attempts to apologise for this fact.

[revelationx]

revx, are you talking about the same Arsenal fans who were holding up banners proclaiming "Hleb is the new George Best" last season. There has been a lot of revisionism going on with regard to Hleb by most Arsenal fans.

As for Anderson, him and Scholes together in a 4-4-2 has been pretty disastrous for us. But, as Ricardo Kaka pointed out in a post on the last page, most central midfielders take a few years to develop completely. Gerrard was absolutely rubbish most of the times he came up against Keane and for all his reputation as a goalscoring midfielder now took close to 40 games to score his first goal and scored only once in his first 2 seasons. Anderson has shown enough, mostly in a midfield 3, to justify the hype though admittedly lots of Utd fans tend to overrate his performances.

Well Gerrard is a good example of someone who developed his game over his career. He is one of the best attacking midfielders around now but started off at right back. I am not judging Anderson on his goalscoring because he is not playing in advanced positions. If he was being played as an attacking midfielder, then yes goalscoring would be an issue when assessing his performances. There is no reason why Anderson will also develop his game over his career. I think it likely. However it is also the case that he has been in worse form this year than last year. All his best moments in his Utd career have been from last year.

As for the Hleb question, I shall ask it in the Arsenal forum. But since I live with an Arsenal fan and have Arsenal fans for friends, I am well aware of the general opinion on Hleb.

[zippy85]

But ultimately, the point is to win games and score goals. Messi plays in, and has a similar role to Ronaldo, which is essentially that of a goal scorer/playmaker. So why one cannot look at both Ronaldo and Messi's individual output, both in goals and assists, as well as team achievements to describe which one is currently more effective?
Ronaldo is not a playmaker, he steals all of the chances for himself.

[Bronaldo]

Ronaldo is not a playmaker, he steals all of the chances for himself.

Yea, he steals goals :rolleyes:

[zippy85]

Yea, he steals goals :rolleyes:
He does because he is a greedy pig regarding football, I hate seeing him play.

[Joelzinho]

Ronaldo is not a playmaker, he steals all of the chances for himself.

Okay, that doesn't make any sense.

He does because he is a greedy pig regarding football, I hate seeing him play.

Really? I remember you being ready to get down on your knees previously and praise him when you use to come around the Manchester United forums?

[O Fenômeno]

anderson is one of the most overrated player in prem along with nani


LOL..

People are sounding like idiots....

As long as Gerrard is alive and kicking...as well as being average...NO one will be more overrated than him. Not to mention

Adebayor...

[zippy85]

LOL..

People are sounding like idiots....

As long as Gerrard is alive and kicking...as well as being average...NO one will be more overrated than him. Not to mention

Adebayor...
I like Anderson but i would still take Gerrard over him, Anderson is cuter though, at least he has that over him.

[phil80]

Hleb is an attacking midfielder. He is not a defensive midfielder, a box2box player, a deep-lying playmaker. LOL at you claiming Pires could not create as well as Hleb. Shall we pose that question in the Arsenal forum?

You mentioned Xavi who scored 21 goals in the last 2 and half seasons. You mentioned Van Der Vaart who scored 36 goals in that timeframe.
Hleb got 8 goals in that timeframe. Every single attacking midfielder is assessed on many things and goalscoring is an important statistic in this assessment. Except suddenly when Hleb is involved it becomes a non-issue. I say that is bogus and unacceptable. Face it, Hleb has a glaring weakness in that department, attempts to dress it up are simply desperate attempts to apologise for this fact.
Listen, hleb almost never played attacking mid at arsenal, so it doesnt matter what he is if he didnt play that position. And you shall pose that question to the Stuttgart fans, that got to watch him in his natural position.

I have mentioned in many other threads how bad hleb's shooting is, but whether you like to admit it or not, that does not mean he has no impact offensively. If you didnt understand that by my last post where i explained it and gave examples, then there's nothing left to say on the issue.
FYI xavi is not an attacking mid

[cr7torossi]

This is what Arsenal fans thought of Hleb sometime in the middle of last season (when they were Brazil 1970 version 2)

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9919/hlbgs8.jpg

[phil80]

what is your point and what does it have to do with the discussion?

[revelationx]

Listen, hleb almost never played attacking mid at arsenal, so it doesnt matter what he is if he didnt play that position. And you shall pose that question to the Stuttgart fans, that got to watch him in his natural position.

I have mentioned in many other threads how bad hleb's shooting is, but whether you like to admit it or not, that does not mean he has no impact offensively. If you didnt understand that by my last post where i explained it and gave examples, then there's nothing left to say on the issue.
FYI xavi is not an attacking mid

I did not say Xavi is an attacking mid. I mentioned him because you did. He has also outscored Hleb!

You may pretend to be a Hleb expert but your increasingly desperate attempts to portray Hleb as anything but an attacking midfielder are revealing the 'extent' of your knowledge. Where in your 'expert' opinion did Hleb play at Arsenal if not as an attacking midfielder?

I did not say Hleb had no impact offensively, I said he offered no goal threat and this was a glaring weakness in his game. You then started talking nonsense in a vain attempt to justify the fact that Hleb has an atrocious goal-scoring record in recent years. Why should I ask the Stuttgart fans anything. I have seen Hleb play countless times for Arsenal myself and I use that as the sole criteria when assessing performances. Not the second-hand opinion of fanboys from 4 seasons ago. When assessing Sheva do you suggest ignoring the games I saw him play in person for Chelsea and instead ask Milan fans how Sheva played 5 years ago? Do you not see how absurd your suggestion about asking Stuttgart fans was?

I have put the question about Hleb to the Arsenal fans in their forum. Take a look. Argue your case if you want but they will all agree with me that Hleb was inferior to Pires.

You may go around town wearing your Hleb shirt but I do not. I think he is overrated and he has an appalling scoring rate for an attacking midfielder in a major side.

[revelationx]

This is what Arsenal fans thought of Hleb sometime in the middle of last season (when they were Brazil 1970 version 2)

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9919/hlbgs8.jpg

I have seen you attempting to dig up this pic to post here. However I think you will find that just cos Hleb's family put up a banner that this does not mean all Arsenal fans concur. I am sure Eboue's family put up a banner saying Eboue is the new Garrincha but this does not make it true.

I have put the Hleb/Pires question to Arsenal. Take a look at the thread to gauge their opinions on the issue.

[cr7torossi]

I have seen you attempting to dig up this pic to post here. However I think you will find that just cos Hleb's family put up a banner that this does not mean all Arsenal fans concur. I am sure Eboue's family put up a banner saying Eboue is the new Garrincha but this does not make it true.

I have put the Hleb/Pires question to Arsenal. Take a look at the thread to gauge their opinions on the issue.

Doesn't that happen with most players who leave a club on their terms; fans tend to say that they weren't any good in the first place. This clearly demonstrates that some Arsenal fans thought of him that highly then; a quick search of the web or BS itself sometime last Nov/Dec would confirm that most of them thought of him pretty highly.
Their opinions on Flamini or Hleb now is obviously no indicator of their actual opinions.

[phil80]

Where in your 'expert' opinion did Hleb play at Arsenal if not as an attacking midfielder?
Do you not see how absurd your suggestion about asking Stuttgart fans was?.
Your desperation has no bounds does it? If i had only watched hleb at arsenal and not before nor with his international games then i too would think pires creates more. You have made it blatantly obvious that you have no clue on the player as you have to ask where hleb played at arsenal, that alone throws all of your credibility out the window.
And since you have a hard time with comprehension ill explain the stuttgart fans comment. You foolishly suggested to post the question to arsenal fans but if you wanted a true answer on the player's abilities you should ask the fans that witnessed him play his natural position, and i dont know why you have to ask anyone, can't make the decision on your own? if you dont know the player's strengths nor the position he plays you have no credibility in the matter.

And i am no hleb expert but unlike you i have watched his games for the national side and before arsenal and know how he plays in his natural position.