Cristiano Ronaldo or Brazilian Ronaldo

[schafer]

I can't prove it with words, just use your eyes, zambrotta outpaced him last year, Ronaldo lost the ball and for once tries to win it back and ran back down the left flank and zambrotta matched him and a little bit more whilst dribbling the ball, you lot think i don't know football but i must look at different things whilst watching than you lot because i seem to see things you lot don't.

It seems bizarre to say this, but I don't think you can actually say based on one incident of a player outpacing the other who is actually faster. Things like momentum (I'm guessing Ronaldo had to turn close to 180 degrees in this instance?), fatigue, and effort (if I had to hazard a guess, I would say Ronaldo running to get onto the end of something in the box is generally faster than Ronaldo trying to chase down a lost ball) all come into effect and despite this example to the contrary, Ronaldo is in fact very quick, IMO. There are obviously faster players, but few if any can match his speed and balance with the ball. Maybe Kaka or Messi but few others.

[schafer]

If you don't personally like a player for reasons of aesthetics then that is fine but don't try to use that as reasoning when objectively discussing or rating a player. If you just want to have a moan then there are appropriate threads for doing so:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=761075

Either that or start a thread to deal with aesthetics and aesthetics alone.

To be fair to phishnchipz, not all of his arguments are simply about 'aesthetics', whether you agree with him or not. I would say accusing a player of never passing at the right time and lacking the requisite technique to pull off a certain type of pass are a bit more substantial than aesthetic criticisms.

[zippy85]

It seems bizarre to say this, but I don't think you can actually say based on one incident of a player outpacing the other who is actually faster. Things like momentum (I'm guessing Ronaldo had to turn close to 180 degrees in this instance?), fatigue, and effort (if I had to hazard a guess, I would say Ronaldo running to get onto the end of something in the box is generally faster than Ronaldo trying to chase down a lost ball) all come into effect and despite this example to the contrary, Ronaldo is in fact very quick, IMO. There are obviously faster players, but few if any can match his speed and balance with the ball. Maybe Kaka or Messi but few others.
Good post but it was a long sprint and this is not based on just one occasion, he was also faster before he bulked up, just llke he was a more exciting player a couple of years ago.

[Big Soccer Member]

Good post but it was a long sprint and this is not based on just one occasion, he was also faster before he bulked up, just llke he was a more exciting player a couple of years ago.
Ronaldo is the quickest player in the Premier League. Nike did some timings of top speed with and without the ball. Ronaldo and Agbonlahor wer e the only people to crack 23 mph (don't quote me though). Obviously this doesn't prove if he is faster than Zambrotta or not, but he is extremely quick.

Edit: Kenwyne Jones and Obafemi Martins were there or there abouts.

[phishnchipz]

Ronaldo has the best physical ability of any player in the EPL with the possible exception of Rio. The only "stars" who can consistently vie with him defensively (physically and tactically, as in they don't dive in) are ones such as Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Essien, Ferdinand, and Gallas. All these players are within the very top echelon athletically.

Clearly, whoever countered with the argument that Ronaldo can settle a 50 yard ball from Scholes at his feet has never played football at any kind of level before. Most Division 1 college players in the US can do that. That has nothing to do with a real first touch, which means being able to direct the ball to where you want instinctively. It's quite easy to settle a 70, even a 100 yard ball, but witness Bergkamp's goal against Argentina, against Newcastle, or Baggio's famous goal when he rounds the keeper with his first touch from a 50 yard ball. These are extravagant, but appropriate examples of first touch. What Ronaldo does is SETTLE THE BALL AT HIS FEET and then go. So what if he can settle a 70 yard ball, those aren't necessarily harder than a 20 yard one. Any professional player can or at least should be able to do this without a problem.

When I talk about technique, I don't mean the things everyone can see so obviously. I really enjoyed Dark Savante's post one time about Scholes's merits and one was that he always hits the ball with the right weight. Not only that, but he hits it with the right spin, so that the receiver can take the ball as comfortably as possible. It's hard to notice these things unless you've played at a high level.

Finally, I am not talking completely about aesthetics, but anyone who doesn't think Ronaldo has an awkward way of running or touching the ball is clearly insane. He has gotten better over the years as he's gotten more polished, but his poise is still very far off from the most elegant players, like Totti. This is most evident when he strains himself, such as changing directions or shooting while running. And people need to get off my back about being a Messi fanboy because I don't rate him within my top 3 or 4. If you honestly consider Ronaldo's naive linkup play with Evra to be outstanding, I implore you to reconsider your judgment in light of the fact that it most often occurs against EPL teams with little tactical wisdom and when they are given PLENTY of space to run.

And lastly,about Ronaldo's passing ability. I do not at all deny his accuracy on a clearcut ball. Clearcut as in it is obvious to whom he should pass and when, such as a cross. But when it comes to actual vision and feel for a dangerous, penetrating ball, which consists not only of seeing the pass but also timing it correctly, he is terrible. I don't think anyone can deny this. Specialists of this kind of pass are/were Bergkamp, Ronaldinho, De la Pena, Valeron, Pirlo, Scholes lob to Rooney, etc.

[Joelzinho]

Good post but it was a long sprint and this is not based on just one occasion, he was also faster before he bulked up, just llke he was a more exciting player a couple of years ago.

Before he went to England, he was more "loose", more spur of the moment and more agile in my opinion. That is all. He became, I don't know how to say it exactly in english, but less fintoso...

But he had to, he had to bulk up and become more to the point. He would have never become as potent if he stayed in Portugal or if he went first to La Liga before the EPL.

[zippy85]

Before he went to England, he was more "loose", more spur of the moment and more agile in my opinion. That is all. He became, I don't know how to say it exactly in english, but less fintoso...

But he had to, he had to bulk up and become more to the point. He would have never become as potent if he stayed in Portugal or if he went first to La Liga before the EPL.
Good points and I agree but he really has narrowed his game down too much.

I know this is the wrong thread but what are your thoughts on whats happened to Anderson.:(

[Bonizzoni]

Talking about Ronaldo,he just signed with Corinthians.

[zippy85]

That bites, it would hae been good if he came to England even if he is now old and crap.

[Bonizzoni]

That bites, it would hae been good if he came to England even if he is now old and crap.

Hm,dunno. He said that he wants to play nice here and try to get a place in WC 2010...seems easier to get a chance playing fine in Brazil than being so-so in England,Italy or Spain.

[Joelzinho]

Good points and I agree but he really has narrowed his game down too much.

I know this is the wrong thread but what are your thoughts on whats happened to Anderson.:(

I am a little disappointed to have witnessed what has transpired with Anderson. Especially, since he is now essentially being implemented in the same role at the National level. I saw him at Gremio, Porto, and his youth tournaments for Brasil, he then was an offensive machine. I was never too fond of the Ronaldinho comparisons, as he was never the type of player to use an excessive amount of tricks, in reality, Celsinho was more like Gaucho and Anderson was closer too Kaka.

He use to glide by defenders when he had the ball, playing right in behind the striker or slicing in from out wide. His passing was superb, and not so much as the cross field long ball or shot type(Scholes), but rather, shake off one defender or two with a combination of strength and skill, and then make a wonderful on the ground weighted ball that would open up what remained of the defense. His shooting back then also seemed to be better, he never dropped a long bomb, but he was hitting the posts and scoring goals.

Going to England, he has no doubt lost some of his attacking touch, although you still see glimpses when he is in an advanced position or in the box. However, the fact that he was able to conform so easily to a position that he was unaccustomed too is evidence of his talent, credit must also be attributed to SAF as well to see what Anderson is actually capable of.

I miss the Gremio Anderson, the one - two step after his goals, but he has developed into a wonderful player for United. And ultimately, has become a better overall player, even if he has sacrificed some offense production and opportunities.

[Mysterious]

And lastly,about Ronaldo's passing ability. I do not at all deny his accuracy on a clearcut ball. Clearcut as in it is obvious to whom he should pass and when, such as a cross. But when it comes to actual vision and feel for a dangerous, penetrating ball, which consists not only of seeing the pass but also timing it correctly, he is terrible. I don't think anyone can deny this.

Did you see his first touch side foot pass into the box for Berbatov against Sunderland? Did you see his first touch backheel pass vs. Villa to Rooney last year?

The pass to Rooney is at 0:43. If this doesn't help convince you of his vision and awareness than nothing will, tell me who else makes that pass? By the way, he aslo has a perfectly placed first time cross that Tevez heads in and another first time pass to Rooney for a second goal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LymQDKwXqkY&feature=related

[phil80]

I remember watching that third goal many times and I am almost certain he was intending to flick it to the player on the left and not rooney. His reaction after he did it was more shock rather than anticipation. The last goal was a very good pass but nothing different from ordinary. Ronaldo has some good one touch flicks and passes like the one you pointed out against sunderland, but were you aware of how many flicks went astray or to the defender? That was another concern i had with totti in the last few years. When he would get the flicks right it was incredible to see but too often they went to the other team and destroyed their attacking play leaving them vulnerable on defense. Ronaldo's vision limitations is most obvious when he is in the middle of his dribble. He rarely has the awareness to slip it through defenders to a teammate or find the player in the better position. In contrast, players like Ribery, Messi, Iniesta, Hleb are able to do so regularly in the stride of their dribble.

[Joelzinho]

In contrast, players like Ribery, Messi, Iniesta, Hleb are able to do so regularly in the stride of their dribble.

Messi and Iniesta yes. Hleb and Ribery no.

[phil80]

i disagree hleb's vision is one of his strongest attributes, and ribery constantly threads passes to klose and luca toni.

[Joelzinho]

i disagree hleb's vision is one of his strongest attributes, and ribery constantly threads passes to klose and luca toni.

I saw enough of Hleb at Arsenal to know he doesn't. His strongest attribute is his ability to keep the ball glued to his feet, as if its on a string. His conventional close - space dribbling is out of this world. But while he does this, his head is pointed directly towards the floor, and rarely looks up in those instances until he has pulled away from the defender/s...

[phil80]

To each his own, but Adebayor even acknowledged that without hleb's passes he wouldnt have reached last year's goal tally. When he was playing as a supporting striker, he constantly fed throughballs to adebayor, one game that springs up to mind is against l'pool in the champions league where adebayor wasted many one on one opportunities set up by hleb. You must have watched him when he was playing more on the wing (and not as supporting striker) because he was less effective there. He has also set up Messi a few times for goal opportunities this season. Here are some examples:. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z5hH3dgdf8 (go to minute 1:36 and 5:32) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBlYqrgSLrU&feature=related

[zippy85]

I am a little disappointed to have witnessed what has transpired with Anderson. Especially, since he is now essentially being implemented in the same role at the National level. I saw him at Gremio, Porto, and his youth tournaments for Brasil, he then was an offensive machine. I was never too fond of the Ronaldinho comparisons, as he was never the type of player to use an excessive amount of tricks, in reality, Celsinho was more like Gaucho and Anderson was closer too Kaka.

He use to glide by defenders when he had the ball, playing right in behind the striker or slicing in from out wide. His passing was superb, and not so much as the cross field long ball or shot type(Scholes), but rather, shake off one defender or two with a combination of strength and skill, and then make a wonderful on the ground weighted ball that would open up what remained of the defense. His shooting back then also seemed to be better, he never dropped a long bomb, but he was hitting the posts and scoring goals.

Going to England, he has no doubt lost some of his attacking touch, although you still see glimpses when he is in an advanced position or in the box. However, the fact that he was able to conform so easily to a position that he was unaccustomed too is evidence of his talent, credit must also be attributed to SAF as well to see what Anderson is actually capable of.

I miss the Gremio Anderson, the one - two step after his goals, but he has developed into a wonderful player for United. And ultimately, has become a better overall player, even if he has sacrificed some offense production and opportunities.
Thanks.:)

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I miss the Gremio Anderson, the one - two step after his goals, but he has developed into a wonderful player for United. And ultimately, has become a better overall player, even if he has sacrificed some offense production and opportunities.

What Anderson has managed to do is even more impressive because no-one expected him to feature much last season. My disappointent is not with what transpired but with his attacking game being relatively poor even when he was in an attacking position. Whether he has 'lost' it or is chosing not to attack as he normally would for whatever reason (perhaps due to his midfield responsibilities) remains to be seen.

< post belittling anything Ronaldo does >

RE Helb I agree with both Joelzinho and phil80. It is dependent almost entirely on his role in the side. When he was stupidly dumped out wide by Wenger his close control, dribbling and ball retention came to the fore because that was what was required. When he was finally used centrally in his natural position he was able to utilise his passing, notably through balls, a lot more.

[revelationx]

Anderson has had a much worse second season so far from what I have seen.