Who do you want as the club's manager next season?

[JoeTerp]

pretty straight forward question, please provide your reasoning for your selection and if it isn't Rafa, please comment on how available your choice is. IMO, I would like to see Rafa get one more chance to put it all together and mount a serious title challenge.

[Red Bed]

Joe Bloggs.

[soccershaggy]

Rafa

[CCSC_STRIKER20]

First Choice: Rafa.

Second Choice: Rafa.

Third Choice: Bruce. Arena. :D

We have been incredibly unlucky this season, and I really can't find it in my heart to blame Rafa for some unfortunate injuries (Agger in particular) and some player's poor form (Alonso, Kuyt, Aurelio, Riise, shit the list is way too long). Injuries you can't blame on Rafa because he rotates, and form can be somewhat attributed to style of managing, but really these are professional and some have been playing like absolute ********-heads.

Rafa's action in last summer's transfer market was positive. He got rid of some unneeded personnel and acquired some good players (Torres, Babel, Lucas, Benayoun). I believe he will do the same this summer, we will see a couple of players leave and maybe one or two new arrivals.

I really think Rafa should get 1-2 more years, do I think he will get those 1-2 years...I'm not too sure. I can only hope. There are very few out of work managers or managers who would be willing to come to Liverpool that can do a better job than Rafa, save Jose (please no). I think Rafa's future will be more and more clear once the owners' futures become more and more clear.

The one thing I am not looking forward too is this summer's Euro's. Yes, as a soccer fan I love watching major tournaments. However, it seems our team doesn't always have good seasons after major tournaments. At least Stevie G and Carragher will get a good rest, but tired players and poor form is hard for Rafa to work with.

Thoughts?

[usscouse]

This can only get ugly when the maggots arrive.

[el-capitano]

Its funny, because Sydney sacked our likeable manager who wasnt getting results mid way through the season with us in second last, and replaced him with a turd, who everyone hates. (He coached a rival club for the past two years)

We only lost one game for the rest of the season & finished third. I still don't like the turd, but I have to respect him as he got the results.

What I'm getting at, is if we do lose Rafa, I would put up with Jose if he got us results, because I want to see Liverpool go well.

Thats being said- I do want Rafa to stay. We've waited 17 years, whats another one? Give him a decent go next year, we can't be as unlucky as this year? Surely?

[drobny23]

I'm not a believer in the rotation system, but I see its merits, and I want Rafa to stay.

[YNWAYNWA]

I'd like to see Rafa given some more time -- look how long it took SAF to win the league

Rafa is starting to see more significant funds available, but, his earlier dealing with done fairly cheaply (by elite club standards)

however, I would want Rafa to accept that things needed freshening up on the domestic front, and have a #2 brought in

either something's been missing since Pako left, or another personality is needed to get the team up for league matches, etc

I'm also worried that the departure of Rafa now would unsettle our significant latin contingent (AND we don't even have Mascha signed up yet) and set us back into another rebuilding stage

[Liverpool_SC]

None of the positives that people mention about Rafa have anything to do with the squad playing well. Does anyone ever notice that? I don't disagree that he has signed some decent players, although like Houllier before him he has certainly made some crappy choices as well (every forward except Torres and perhaps Crouch).

I may be old school, but I would prefer a manager who helps the team perform properly on the pitch and prepares them properly on the training ground. Rafa is not doing that. In fact, the more our team spends on new players - however flash they may be as individuals - the team is getting declining results.

Rafa is his own biggest enemy. He does not need the fans supporting him above and beyond all reason because it reinforces him in his worst ideas (rotation for rotation's sake, seeing how many slow players he can cram into one backline, seeing how many fullbacks with no ability to head the ball he can field at one time, playing ponies as auxiliary forwards, mistaking the role of coaching from the technical area with the role of conductor of an orchestra, etc).

Much has been made of the Pako Ayesteran falling out ... I don't know if it is a direct correlation - but I personally believe that Rafa shows evidence of too much self-belief. I think that most of us believe it is stupid to keep running out Kuyt as a striker when he needs finishing lessons from Emile Heskey and when Eric Meijer might be able to teach him something about moving off the ball ... but to some extent blindly stumping for Rafa when he is apparently incapable of exerting positive influence on the form of the club is similarly foolish.

Rafa is capable of being an outstanding manager at the highest levels. But he is not mentally in the place to do that right now. He is too self-aggrandizing. And he is not as good as he thinks he is, or as LFC fans are making him out to be. He has been out-managed by Sir Alex Ferguson. He did pretty well against 'the chosen one', but I personally don't know how much you can laugh at a man who signed, sealed and delivered two premier league championships while working for the only ego larger than his in the world. Arsene Wenger runs rings around Rafa in terms of bang for buck and actually signing young players who can make a championship happen. Rafa has not made himself indispensable.

Name one LFC player who has manifestly improved every year under Rafa's tutelage. Is Xabi trending better? Does StevieG show more or less comfort with his role (even as he plays in the center of the field) than he did two years ago? Is Jamie Carragher as consistent as he was 2 years ago? Does the team defend better as a team now (and please don't suggest that Agger is the missing piece of the puzzle)? Do our strikers, wingers and central midfield appear to have a telepathic understanding with one another? Do our attacking players reveal evidence of an underlying attacking system with patterns of movement, supporting play, incisive passing and the timing necessary for these things to come together? Do Rafa's patterns of substitution consistently affect the results of matches? Do Rafa's lineup choices clearly benefit the form, fitness and consistency of the team? Does the team respond positively when Rafa motivates them and challenges them?

There are circumstances that affect even the best of managers and make it difficult for the best of teams to maintain peak performance over long periods. But LFC doesn't look like a team that is improving as a whole.

Rafa is capable of a new and even greater 'rafalution'. But it is not happening right now. And it is not the owners' fault. It is not Rick Parry's fault. It is not any individual player's fault. If it is collectively the player's fault - that speaks poorly for Rafa anyway.

Presently, Rafa's micromanagement of every aspect of the team is taking the wind out of Liverpool's sails. I think he needs to do less, rather than more, in order to turn things around. He will need to relinquish some responsibilities - bring in the right man to take some of the coaching, consider bringing in a strong personality who can challenge him on tactical decisions (his tactics have not been effective this season), take more time off from the team (get a bit of perspective), show some humility to the owners and FO (thanks for the support and the money for new signings ... I am going to buckle down and make sure I reward your investment) - being the bigger man would not lessen his credibility with the players or press and it would probably create a better tone at the club, etc. Finally, Rafa could do a lot worse if he spent some time talking to Liverpool legends, bringing more of them in for teamtalks and asking them for insight into what made the team so dominant in the past. The Boot Room is long gone and going ad fontes is not going to lead to the destruction of the stronger, modern sporting institution that emerged from the difficult period of the late 90s. Surely it is not effort alone that will help the very able players presently on the roster to achieve what the Reds achieved in the past. But the team has none of the swagger, none of the self-belief in its ability to dominate the opposition and little of the self-belief in one another that superior sides demonstrate. Too much of our identity is tied up in Rafa. Our identity should be tied up in TEAM.

[CCSC_STRIKER20]

Its funny, because Sydney sacked our likeable manager who wasnt getting results mid way through the season with us in second last, and replaced him with a turd, who everyone hates. (He coached a rival club for the past two years)

We only lost one game for the rest of the season & finished third. I still don't like the turd, but I have to respect him as he got the results.

What I'm getting at, is if we do lose Rafa, I would put up with Jose if he got us results, because I want to see Liverpool go well.

Thats being said- I do want Rafa to stay. We've waited 17 years, whats another one? Give him a decent go next year, we can't be as unlucky as this year? Surely?

Well said. Actually the last two years have been unlucky. Last year being the "Year of the Woodwork".

[ULL NEVER WALK ALONE]

I can't understand why everyone wants rafa out......i think he's perfect for the job. I mean, some may argue it is his rotation policy, but i just think its down to the lack of quality players. Wenger and Ferguson always shuffle things around, but the problem is the HAVE the players to shuffle the pack around...i mean, at the moment it doesn't make sense rotating Babel with Kewell or Kuyt with Crouch. Even if we played pur best eleven year in and out, we still wouldn't win the EPL cause we just do have the cutting edge we need to win the tittle. We need atleast 3/4 players in to get a serious shot at the title.

[royalstilton]

I can't understand why everyone wants rafa out......i think he's perfect for the job. I mean, some may argue it is his rotation policy, but i just think its down to the lack of quality players. Wenger and Ferguson always shuffle things around, but the problem is the HAVE the players to shuffle the pack around...i mean, at the moment it doesn't make sense rotating Babel with Kewell or Kuyt with Crouch. Even if we played pur best eleven year in and out, we still wouldn't win the EPL cause we just do have the cutting edge we need to win the tittle. We need atleast 3/4 players in to get a serious shot at the title.
it's not about winning the EPL so much as it's about being a consistent threat in the league, not giving away games, not bombing out of competitions, not suffering draw after draw to less able teams. for the past two seasons Liverpool has been out of the EPL chase far too early in the year. what this means is that CL or cup competitions become more important because they are the only possible trophies to play for. this season, Liverpool may struggle to qualify for the Champions League, because the Reds cannot seem to score goals. failure to score goals against teams like Wigan and Middlesbrough is just not acceptable. Middlesbrough has a goal differential of -15, Wigan's is -18. to score a single goal against these clubs means that Liverpool's offensive threat is anemic.

you can blame the players if you wish, but the problem isn't a matter of a game here and there. if it were not for the fact that the Reds scored 6 against Sunderland and 4 against Bolton ( halve those totals ) the goal differential would be only 12, which is second tier. hey, Liverpool has more draws than the top two teams combined.

Dirk Kuijt had not scored a league goal since November 24th against Newcastle when he tallied the first goal against Barnsley. and he had scored only one goal in open play. i cannot believe that he was a better choice than Crouch. Benitez must take responsibility for that much.

[AussieLFCfan]

I know i'll get crucified for saying this but i'm really over Rafa and would be interested in seeing what someone else could do with the team. My only concern is that if Rafa goes what happens to our Spanish contingent?

[adammac19]

Fat Sam http://img.moneysavingexpert.com/smilies/laughing-smiley-014.gif

Serious though I would like to see Rafa given more time but I don't think that will be the case.

[JoeTerp]

I am so happy to see so many pro rafa people on this forum. My usual "go to" LFC forum is filled with Wind Up Merchants and anti-Rafa knee jerkers

[Matt Clark]

This can only get ugly when the maggots arrive.

Well let's see, shall we? If we all just respond to each other's reasoned posts (and all undertake to only make such posts), then leave it to me and 26 to weed out the dross. Let's face it, no one should seriously get wound up by what Bigsoccer's critterati from lesser clubs around the way have to say on the matter.

[Liverpool_SC]

I can't understand why everyone wants rafa out......i think he's perfect for the job. I mean, some may argue it is his rotation policy, but i just think its down to the lack of quality players. Wenger and Ferguson always shuffle things around, but the problem is the HAVE the players to shuffle the pack around...i mean, at the moment it doesn't make sense rotating Babel with Kewell or Kuyt with Crouch. Even if we played pur best eleven year in and out, we still wouldn't win the EPL cause we just do have the cutting edge we need to win the tittle. We need atleast 3/4 players in to get a serious shot at the title.

Rafa built this squad and while some of the players he purchased continue to develop and improve ... that cannot be an excuse for not at least improving relative to the competition. We are going backwards, and with the young players that Arsenal and Man Utd have been signing, one can argue we are further behind those sides in 2009/10 or so than we are today.

I would agree that we need to give Rafa more money if he had not absolutely wasted money on Bellamy and Kuyt. Heck, if he likes what Kuyt gives him now - why did he ever sell Milan Baros? He ran around just as hard and scored just as rarely? And why are we still in a position such that John Arne Riise is our best left back, Steven Gerrard is still our best support striker, our best attacking midfielder, our best right-sided midfielder ... why do we still run Harry Kewell out so frequently when he simply cannot be in the manager's long-term plans and he doesn't add much to the equation (since it is unclear what our attack is trying to do when Torres isn't out there)?

Truly, I generally agree that Rafa has built a decent side. He brought in Agger, Maschareno, Torres, Reina and others who are/have been solid players (Alonso, Sissoko, Arbeloa, Crouch, Luis Garcia). But those moves plus his questionable management have not been good enough to raise the team above its peers. And I don't get the sense from our players that they are slowly but surely forming into a tight-knit and confident bunch ... as if they are in a slow but unwavering period of growth that is going to inevitably turn them into world-beaters. The players seem just as perplexed as we do. In the same time, Arsene Wenger has completely transformed his side (virtually to a man) and they are looking at a very rosy future considering the relative youth of their squad.

Rafa - to some extent - seems more suited to be a technical director than a manager. He is very forward-thinking and long-range oriented. But enough strategy ... we need better tactical (short-term) leadership. We need someone to ruthlessly wring some results out of the side we have - the way SAF wrung a championship out of a pretty scalawag crew last season. He hardly had any proper strikers, he had some pretty creaky midfielders in important roles and his backline got things done with smoke-and-mirrors. But they got it done, and he never made any excuses - even when his biggest signing of the season were an unknown Croat (or wherever Vidic is from) and French left back (Evra).

Rafa has suggested we have what it takes to win the league the past two seasons. But the points gap suggests that we are not a goal here, a call there or a mis-timed injury from first place in the table. I believe he is doing everything in his power to improve the team, but it is leaving us well short at the moment - don't you think?

[Liverpool_SC]

Mind you my point is not that the club needs to chuck Rafa. He can be the man to lead LFC to a championship - but not as he is presently doing. He is going to have to change and others in the club are going to have to stand up to him and demand that he improve in demonstrable areas where the club is inferior - or - demand that he swallow his pride and get help in those areas. If he really does suggest it is his way or the heighway ... at that point I do become convinced he is not the man for the job.

[Grinners89]

IMO, everyone who bags Rafa needs to put things into perspective. Liverpool the match-day team consists of 11 starters, 5 or 7 subs and Rafa being the head of the coaching/management team. That means that he is one out of 16 or 18 in the team. If 11 of those people arent pulling their weight then we will not win the league, or any competition. This year it has been the players who are to blame. Rafa cant be blamed for any penalties against us, or any defensive mistakes, which is what everyone is doing. Eg...if Aurelio makes a defensive mistake, then people bag Rafa for playing him. IMO that is wrong because Rafa puts faith in the players he puts on the pitch and gives them opportunities to impress yet most havent done that (except for Reina, Masch, SG and Torres...maybe Carra and Hyypia).

Example: If we lose to Barnsley because Kewell hits the bar instead of hitting the net, then Kewell is responsible for that, not Rafa. He can only prepare the team, he can not play the match for them.

I hope a few of you Rafa haters and knee-jerkers read this and stop your ignorant media-like bashing of our club.

[Matt Clark]

I know i'll get crucified for saying this but i'm really over Rafa and would be interested in seeing what someone else could do with the team. My only concern is that if Rafa goes what happens to our Spanish contingent?
Well it's obvious - some will leave (most likely to either Real Madrid or Barcelona, which is where Benitez would end up), others will hedge their bets on what the new manager does. Some will be forced out, others any manager would be keen to keep (Torres being the obvious example). As to what "someone else would do with the team" - he'd do what Benitez did with Houllier's team and Houllier did with Evans' team and Evans did with Souey's team ... etc, etc. He'll sell lots of players, buy lots of players, change training methods, bring in new back-room staff - and then ask for time and patience whilst his ideas take shape.

Before I delve into the question this thread poses in detail, I think any reasonable answer therefore has to be prefaced by this obvious attendant question: what is you want?

The quick, obvious answer is "I want to challenge for and ultimately win the league". Most of us would follow that up with "and some time soon would be nice". And a good number of us would also add "oh, and I'd like the team playing like Brazil 1970 more often than not please!". And then there'd be some muttering about Angelina Jolie and "like a steamhammer", but we'll leave the scenario there.

Well, we have to be realistic about what all that means. Unless you are firm in your conviction that Benitez will not win the Premier League now or at any time in the future, then your argument for removing him needs to be carefully made. Because let's not be naive: "getting in someone better" needs to be assessed with recent history in mind. Namely, it's precisely the same logic and line of thinking that replaced Houllier and appointed Benitez. Houllier, it was largely held at the end of the 2003/04 season, wasn't going to do it. Agree or disagree, by that point he'd actually lost the squad, so it rendered argument on the point meaningless. Benitez, by equally broad consensus, was exactly the sort of appointment we needed to make the step up. Recent title-winner in La Liga, UEFA Cup, yadda yadda. Obviously there was some chinwag about Martin O'bloody Neill, as there is everytime LFC has a vacancy for anything right down to tea lady, but that was rightly ignored by the sensible majority. Benitez was an obvious fit.

So ... here we are. Nearing the end of his fourth season in charge and the league campaign has, after a brief purple patch, largely been a shambles. Even if we win every one of our remaining league games, the highest points total we can hope for is 80. Which would be pretty good, as it happens - but still two less than his best and, in all probability, a good 8-10 points off title-winning pace. And, of course, we're not going to win all 13 remaining matches.

So what does that mean? I've seen some on here argue that he's not improved on Houllier in a similar timeframe, ergo: he must go. Others will inevitably cite the likes of Ferguson in the retort that more time must be allocated. To return to the prefacing question then: what do you want? if you want to win the title in the next two or three years, then the question has to be this: is a new manager more or less likely to achieve that than the present one? A hypothetical, of course, given we can't even know the identity of any new manager until the change actually happens. But still: what do we project? Knowing what we know about Rafa, about his squad, about the club's ownership and management? And crucially, knowing what we know about the necessaries of a successful title-winning campaign and associated squad. People will, in that context, always cite Wenger and Arsenal but fail to realise that that is the exception that proves the rule: namely, that in this day and age building and maintaining the competitive edge needed to win the title requires lots of money and, usually, also quite a bit of time. So whoever is at the helm next season, what they will need is a lot of investment in the squad.

We have been incredibly unlucky this season, and I really can't find it in my heart to blame Rafa for some unfortunate injuries (Agger in particular) and some player's poor form (Alonso, Kuyt, Aurelio, Riise, shit the list is way too long).
True enough, although one thing Benitez should definitely have top of his summer to do list is the recruitment of a top-class first team coach, because we can clearly date the deterioration in form and confidence with some players to the acrimonious departure of Pako Aysteran. That said, a number of players do need to take themselves outside for a serious talking to.

Rafa's action in last summer's transfer market was positive. He got rid of some unneeded personnel and acquired some good players (Torres, Babel, Lucas, Benayoun). I believe he will do the same this summer, we will see a couple of players leave and maybe one or two new arrivals.
He needs the funds. In the past 12 months, we've had Torres, Mascherano, Babel, Lucas and Skrtl added who fit the profile of top-notch first 16 type of players. But he's got to go out and buy at least one more top notch striker and someone to support attacking play from midfield (NOT "a winger", let's not even start with that silly, silly dirge). And we're not talking players of around £6-£8m here. Look at Chelsea: I maintain that perhaps the most significant signing made this past month was the purchase of Anelka to add to a forward line that, devoid of Drogba, was rubbish. And he cost £15m. If we'd have bought him, he'd have our second most expensive signing ever (notwithstanding the still to be completed Mascherano deal for £17m). Given the funds, he'll get the players. He's proven himself in that regard because none of the players he's bought for big money have proven to be duds. With a better run of injuries, we'll see the upswing for sure.

Rafa is capable of being an outstanding manager at the highest levels. But he is not mentally in the place to do that right now. He is too self-aggrandizing. And he is not as good as he thinks he is, or as LFC fans are making him out to be. He has been out-managed by Sir Alex Ferguson. He did pretty well against 'the chosen one', but I personally don't know how much you can laugh at a man who signed, sealed and delivered two premier league championships while working for the only ego larger than his in the world. Arsene Wenger runs rings around Rafa in terms of bang for buck and actually signing young players who can make a championship happen. Rafa has not made himself indispensable.
Well, to take the last point first, of course no one is indispensable - "the club is bigger than", etc ... but nor has he made himself dispensable, especially when you consider the alternative path I've sketched out above. I don't agree he is too self-aggrandising, that's a perspective that has been nurtured by our darling media and, unfortunately, is starting to permeate the views of actual fans. He's stubborn, for sure. He's determined to make his methods work, definitely. But then I prefer that to someone who will stick to his methods until the first time they stop working, then give an apologetic shake of the head and cast about for another approach. "Back to the drawing board" as Roy Evans used to say (and by God did we have enough of that then to last us several lifetimes). Benitez is right to have decided that he will live or die by his methods. If we're going to insist that he manages in a way he doesn't consider right, then we might as well go the whole hog and sack him. We won't be telling his replacement how to manage, so why presume to tell the incumbent?

Name one LFC player who has manifestly improved every year under Rafa's tutelage. Is Xabi trending better? Does StevieG show more or less comfort with his role (even as he plays in the center of the field) than he did two years ago? Is Jamie Carragher as consistent as he was 2 years ago?
Finnan is twice the player now than he was and Carra improved into the player he is precisely because of Rafa's decision to make him the linchpin of the side. Is he better now than 2 years ago is a disingenious way of putting it: he might now be as good as he's ever going to get and 2 years ago was 2 years into Benitez' work with him. As to the rest of it, I do think (as I said above) that a top class coach is clearly missing. Benitez (like Ferguson) is a manager, not a coach. As you yourself say:

Presently, Rafa's micromanagement of every aspect of the team is taking the wind out of Liverpool's sails. I think he needs to do less, rather than more, in order to turn things around.
I completely agree.

Finally, Rafa could do a lot worse if he spent some time talking to Liverpool legends, bringing more of them in for teamtalks and asking them for insight into what made the team so dominant in the past.
Ugggh. God no. You can listen to a uniquely large number of ex-Reds through the various media channels, from Ray Houghton to Jimmy Case to John Aldridge and, of course, Lawrenson and Hansen. And none of them talk anything other than utter, utter shite.

There's a reason why no players from that era have ever gone on to be good, let alone great, managers. They spent their entire playing careers not having to think about the game, it was done for them by Shanks and then Paisley, Fagan and King Kenny. None of them have anything of interest to add to a pre-match situation and if the players want to hear tales of past glories, they can go to the dinners all that lot are constantly at in every charitable do ever staged, anywhere in the North West of England.

Anyway, I suppose I would sum up my position by saying that the tipping point for Benitez has not yet, in my opinion, been reached. Give him this summer to shop for players at the same place the teams he's supposed to compete with shop. Give him next season to make those players perform in a way that leaves them relevant to the title race in April/May of the season. Then reassess accordingly in the following summer and, hopefully, build on what has been achieved from there. The alternative will take no less time and have no greater chance of success, so let's remember the words to our club anthem, actually believe in them and see what the future holds together.

That said, I firmly believe he will be gone this summer. The only thing that remains to be seen is if it's a push or a jump.