So, exactly just which team is Germany's #2?

[Rust_In_Peace]

We all agree that Bayern is the number one in Germany, but I have always wondered. Which team is considered the number 2 team in the BL?

[Gaboo]

Hard to say, as Bayern is really the only club in Germany that has been successful through the decades!
Right now, I would say Bremen...but that´s definitely just a current point of view!
Generally I would say, based on the fan-support and tradition...Schalke and/or Dortmund...but then again, when has Schalke won it´s last title (and how many)? Can that team be Germany´s number 2? And if you look at Dortmund right now, nobody would like to call them Germany´s #2!
I think there is no real #2 - club in Germany, as all the contenders for this spot had good an bad times (not just single seasons) in their past and some of them have been really successful during their "good times" while others were maybe just unlucky and got back into "bad times" without having won anything...in my opinion, you can just define a current #2 (or as it´s current, even a #1) in Germany, but there´s no German team that deserves an "all-time-#2"-spot, in my opinion...

[Gregoriak]

Hard to say as the #2 always changes over the years. Historically, there have been different eras in which one club was Bayern's main rival:

1969-1977 Borussia Mönchengladbach
1978-1984 Hamburg
1984-1988 Werder Bremen
1988-1990 Köln
1990-1994 several (Kaiserslautern, Werder, Frankfurt, Dortmund)
1994-1997 Dortmund
1997-2001 Leverkusen
2001-2003 several (Schalke, Dortmund, Werder, Leverkusen...)

[Cirdan]

"ewige tabelle" (seasons played won drawn lost goalsfor:goalsagainst goal-difference points(3ptsperwin) points-per-match)

1. FC Bayern München 42 1432 803 335 294 3043:1687 +1356 2744 1,92
2. SV Werder Bremen 43 1458 639 358 461 2478:2040 +438 2275 1,56
3. Hamburger SV 44 1492 621 402 469 2484:2101 +383 2265 1,52
4. VfB Stuttgart 42 1424 603 356 465 2429:2024 +405 2165 1,52
...

So, Werder is the closest rival over the time, but just barely. Like it was said, the main rival changes every couple of years, currently (as in the last 5 years) Werder is the strongest, though Schalke is probably not much behind.


Btw, as another not-yet-used method: HSV was the club with the second highest revenue last season, however only because they played Champions League and Schalke did not, this season Schalke will almost certainly take that spot back.

[96Squig]

I'd say the one which won most championships:
Mönchengladbach only counting Bundesliga, and I think Nürnberg counting all.

[zacRWE]

Feel bad for voting Schalke :cool: but I guess over the past few years I would say the Royal Blues.
But this is one of the many reasons why I love the Bundesliga, no team is an automatic and all teams are supported well. There is really no defined pecking order, at least since i've followed (late nineties).

Good topic never the less.

[nekkibasara]

On current form I would say Bayern is Germany's number 2. It is only a matter of time before one of the next three clubs in the table over takes them.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

Btw, as another not-yet-used method: HSV was the club with the second highest revenue last season, however only because they played Champions League and Schalke did not, this season Schalke will almost certainly take that spot back.

Yes, Deloitte made the results of a study public in the last days.
The Bundesliga has 4 clubs in the group of Europes 20 clubs
with the highest revenue in season 2006/07:
7.Bayern (223,3)
15. Hamburger SV (120.4)
16. Schalke 04 (114.3)
20. Werder Bremen (97.3)

related links:
http://www.nachrichten.at/wirtschaft/646452
http://www.nachrichten.at/wirtschaft/hintergrund/646453

[Borussia]

I'd say the one which won most championships:
Mönchengladbach only counting Bundesliga, and I think Nürnberg counting all.

You might be right...;)

[The Friendly Ghost]

Determining a top team or a number two team is, almost by definition, a fluid situation. Sure, it's easy to say that Bayern is #1, but 40 years ago that wasn't the case, and in 40 years it may not be the case any more. But for my money, Werder is the #2 team as we speak, and I don't think it's much of a contest. I don't know how anyone can consider Schalke, given that they have yet to win the BL and only recently have been any good in the BL. Achievements from long ago don't mean much if they are not supported by current results. And personally, I discount the whole "tradition" and "fan support" arguments. The Chicago Cubs have a great tradition and fan base, but to argue that they are the #2 team in baseball because of that while ignoring the fact that they haven't won a World Series in 100 years is ludicrous in my view. Same thing in hockey. While Montreal may be #1, anyone who argues that Toronto is #2, notwithstanding their tradition and fan support, has been hibernating for decades. Bottom line is what you do on the field (although "tradition," "fan support" and revenues may obviously contribute to what you do on the field), and Werder has been doing it better and more consistently than any of its competitors in recent memory.

[erick]

this is a hard question because the other teams are inconsistent and they dont stay always at the same.

[Schwalker]

It´s not really possible to say...

Perhaps you need more definite criteria before we have a winner.


Which club is Englands No2..or Italys?

[ApproachWithCaution]

Well historically (as much as i hate to admit it), Manchester United is England's #2 Behind Liverpool. That's based on overall titles won. Though for the past 10 years or so, Arsenal has been 2nd behind United.

In Italy, i'd say Juventus are historically #2 behind AC Milan. Though recently that mantle has probably been passed to Roma, with Inter as numero uno.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

In Italy, i'd say Juventus are historically #2 behind AC Milan.

In European competicions absolute yes, but Juventus is far more sucessfull
in the Italian championship. They won it 27 times while AC won it 17 times.

[benztown]

I voted Bremen, although it's hard to say. Money wise it'd have to be Schalke I guess. But apart from two recent cup wins, Schalke doesn't have much to be so proud of.

Dortmund used to be the #2 during the 1990s, but they've crashed, financially as well as in their game.

Hamburg is also on its way down. I can't see them compensating for the loss of vdV next season, they're too dependent on him.

Stuttgart had a great season last year, but they just don't have the money to remain on top. I hope that this will change of course :D

[Projekt4]

Dortmund have a real chance to be #2 again and to challenge Bayern more seriously (or continuously) than Bremen and Schalke can do. They're still recovering from the breakdown, give them four years. Already in two years, they are supposed to have 15+ million extra to spend each year. Fanbase, regional market, infrastructure, it's all there (but are the people in charge the right people? that's another question...). I seriously hope they'll be back, it'll be good for the league. If they make it into the Uefa Cup through the DFB Cup this year, that'll kickstart things.

Hamburg is certainly not on the way down, they've got some money now, so losing van der Vaart won't be as bad. And he'll probably stick around for a year anyway if Hamburg plays CL and unless a top ten club wants him.

[Cirdan]

I'm not sure if Dortmunds fanbase, market and infrastructure are really better than Schalke, I'd say the 2 clubs are pretty much mirrors of each other... And I wouldn't rate HSV much lower than them either.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

Hamburg is certainly not on the way down, they've got some money now, so losing van der Vaart won't be as bad. And he'll probably stick around for a year anyway if Hamburg plays CL and unless a top ten club wants him.

He can leave Hamburg in summer 2009 for 1.5 million € (contract clause),
so they will sell him this summer. But i agree with you, they will get some money
for him and if they do good transfers, they'll remain at the top of BL.

[Projekt4]

He can leave Hamburg in summer 2009 for 1.5 million € (contract clause),
so they will sell him this summer. But i agree with you, they will get some money
for him and if they do good transfers, they'll remain at the top of BL.

Last time I checked it was exactly like I said, it was still open whether he'd stay. They can't sell him to a bad team if he wants to stick around and then leave almost for free (which makes him more attractive to a top team).

I'm not sure if Dortmunds fanbase, market and infrastructure are really better than Schalke, I'd say the 2 clubs are pretty much mirrors of each other... And I wouldn't rate HSV much lower than them either.

Their current baseline revenue (~90m) is impressive, if in an offhand calculation you add to that the money that can be earned through on-pitch success alone, I think they are a bit above Schalke, esp. given that Schalke has (mainly stadium) debts to pay off for quite a while. Though Dortmund may have to pay dividends. I confess, I'm taking sides with Dortmund in the Revier.

[Cirdan]

Their current baseline revenue (~90m) is impressive, if in an offhand calculation you add to that the money that can be earned through on-pitch success alone, I think they are a bit above Schalke, esp. given that Schalke has (mainly stadium) debts to pay off for quite a while. Though Dortmund may have to pay dividends. I confess, I'm taking sides with Dortmund in the Revier.

Schalke made 115 mio in the same time. They only got around 5 mio € more from the Bundesliga Broadcasting deal (according to an Ernst & Young projection I have), they only played one round of UC (which shouldn't make more than 1mio €), and they played the same number of rounds in the DFB-Pokal. There might be some additional bonuses from sponsors, and you could add a bit of money for the higher attendances Dortmund would get in a more successfull season, but I'm not convinced that it would be enough to make up the difference. And regarding debts, I doubt that Dortmund has much less problems there, I know that the worst problems will be over for them in 2009, but they still won't be debt free, I don't think there is a big difference between the clubs.